Deciphering AL plans!

[LyleK1]

The plans for the AL Bounty leave a lot to be desired!

I am trying to figure out how many blocks are actually located on the mizzen mast at the platform.

The plans are not conclusive and are a bit confusing in that it appears on one that there are blocks but on the other (side view) they don't show.

Here are the examples:

In the picture above, the green circles show two blocks appearing to be tied to the mast and the red circle shows one block tied to starboard side of the mast head block but nothing on the other side except some type of protrusion.

This is the same area but a side view:

The red circle shows the starboard side block but no block at the green circle.

So, are there two blocks tied to the mast or not?

And, is there supposed to be a block on the port side of the mast head block or not?

 

I've looked at pictures of other builds and spent hours going over the rigging diagrams (also, very poor) trying to sort this out but have had little luck.

Artesania Latina needs to do better with their diagrams and plans... so much time lost scratching my head because of poor plans.

 

Any thoughts?

[Gregory]

Do you have any other rigging references ( not necessarily the Bounty ) ?

The necessary rigging to control the yards and sails of any 16th -19th century sailing vessel would have been virtually

the same across many types of ships for the period in question..  

 

If you plan on doing any future modeling, a couple of good books will help with either kits or scratch building.

 

Historic Ship Models – by Wolfram zu Mondfeld  has all the basic rigging.

 

Rigging Period Ship Models by Lennarth Petersson is also very good, with every rope and line found on a 3 masted ship.

Note that Petersson documented the rigging of a contemporary model, and sometimes models had errors, but the general arrangement would be pretty consistent.

 

The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War by James Lees is also very good, but not as user friendly as the other two books. Also it can be a bit pricey, but gooddeals can be found.

 

You can rest assured, AL does not have a unique rigging plan for Bounty or any other ship.

They have drawn upon standard references, as have all kit manufacturers, and sometimes ( often? )with over-simplification and outright errors.

 

On the other hand, someone who has built the AL Bounty, might be able to share how they handled this particular problem.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Gregory

[allanyed]

The list Gregoy gives is super.  Keep in mind Rigging Period Ship Models is based on one contemporary model so somewhat limited.  It is applicable to other ships, but....

 

Lees book is excellent and is applicable to over 200 years of rigging.   It is highly detailed and worth the investment. 

 

If you are interested in modeling a ship built from 1600 to 1720, Anderson's book The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast is a great addition to your library as well.

 

 

3 hours ago, LyleK1 said:

The plans for the AL Bounty leave a lot to be desired!

No matter kit or scratch, a good reference book on rigging is very important.   

Allan

[Gregory]

17 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Keep in mind Rigging Period Ship Models is based on one contemporary model so somewhat limited. 

What I like about 'Rigging Period Ship Models' is that there is an end to end illustration of every line.

There are possibly errors about belaying points and other details, but that would have varied on actual ships also.

 

While Lees is very detailed, I think more illustrations would be helpful..  If I recall correctly, Lees has little if any detailed belaying information.

That may be because there was little standard in that regard

Edited December 7, 2022 by Gregory

[mtaylor]

Lyle,

Have looked at other build logs for this ship?   Often someone else has been through what you trying to find.

[LyleK1]

Well, I feel kinda dumb!

I have two of the books mentioned above by Gregory. Lee's book, as detailed as it is, it is very hard to follow (for me, anyway) but still a good source normally. I didn't find what I was looking for in it.

However, I do have Petersson's book too... Unfortunately, it's a Kindle edition and I forgot that I had it until it was mentioned by Gregory.

I'm gonna have to find a hard copy because it is definitely a better source for locations of lines and some of the equipment used (blocks, etc.).

 

Just a quick look and I was able to answer the above questions:

The red circles on the pictures above should show one block set up on both sides.

The green circles appear to be the same blocks but incorrectly shown and doubled up on the starboard side.

 

Build logs for the AL Bounty are abundant but not many made it to this stage. I use Tim Moore's version for refence quite a bit but his pictures were inconclusive and I hadn't reached out to him yet.

I should look at other build logs of the Bounty for reference.

Thanks for kicking in my memory and the suggestions!

[allanyed]

10 hours ago, Gregory said:

I think more illustrations would be helpful.

I agree, more illustrations would be helpful, but what is there is beyond any other book as there are drawings showing the differences for each era.  

 

10 hours ago, Gregory said:

Lees has little if any detailed belaying information.

Unfortunately no book I have found has an abundance of belaying information.  I wonder if this is due to the fact that each ship seemed to have some differences based on what the sailing master and/or captain and others preferred.  Studying appropriate a contemporary model is very helpful as Petersson did,  but having access to them is not usually possible for the majority of us.   Maybe some member with access to a slew of contemproary models of different periods can put together a book,  The Ultimate Book on Belaying Points!

 

Allan

[Tim Moore]

Lyle - I will look at my Bounty today and try to summarize the block attachments on the mizzen I used. Took a quick look through my photo archive but nothing is that helpful on that specific area. There were a couple of mast plan omissions I recall where I needed to use the rigging diagram to determine every block necessary. 

[LyleK1]

3 hours ago, Tim Moore said:

Lyle - I will look at my Bounty today and try to summarize the block attachments on the mizzen I used. Took a quick look through my photo archive but nothing is that helpful on that specific area. There were a couple of mast plan omissions I recall where I needed to use the rigging diagram to determine every block necessary. 

Thx is Tim!

I’ve looked over your pictures (thankful for them!) and the rigging diagrams and as mentioned above came that conclusion.

 I’ve got plenty to do and will wait to hear back!

[Tim Moore]

Hi Lyle

The AL plan is almost correct. Unfortunately for us, wood model shipbuilding at this level isn’t horseshoes.
I recall this snag on the plan, and concluded it is just that the altitude of the two single blocks either side of the mast (shown as 342 on front view) is inconsistent with the side view.  The block you circled in red on the side view is (must be) the side view of the blocks circled in green on the front view, which obviously don’t match up. I located mine as shown in the side view, in the higher location, fixed to eyebolts as usual. This location made more sense since it will be employed in rigging the yard.

The rest of the plan/blocks specified seem ok in terms of nothing being omitted; or at least it is how mine is rigged and everything seems accounted for. There are only 4 blocks in this area of mizzenmast above the platform: 3 singles (1 at the front and 1 each side) and 1 double at the back of the mast to rig the gaff.

Hope this helps. If not, you could sail on up to Vancouver Island and pick me up to discuss this summer, I should be there by then.

Tim

[LyleK1]

5 hours ago, Tim Moore said:

Hope this helps. If not, you could sail on up to Vancouver Island and pick me up to discuss this summer, I should be there by then.

Tim

Thanks Tim... it's as I thought. When it comes to putting the blocks on, if not done now, it can become a nightmare, as I'm sure you know!

Glad to have that resolved! Didn't want to wait until summer!

The offer is most definitely on the table, would enjoy meeting you. When you get settled, let me know and we can talk further. It's fairly certain that we will pass through Nanaimo next summer, probably twice.

Hope your battleship is going well.

[Dr PR]

I have puzzled over the location of belaying points, and after studying the few plans that I could find, and thinking about it for a while I came up with the following general rules:

 

1. Lines that attached to the masts and near the center of yards, or passed through blocks attached to the masts and near the centers of yards, usually led down to belaying points at the base of the mast (fife rails, ring bolts in deck, etc.). However in some cases lines from the highest parts of the mast (topgallants and royals) were led down to belaying points at the bulwarks (pin rails, cleats or ring bolts in the deck). Sometimes these lines ran through thimbles tied to shrouds and then to belaying points below.

 

2. Lines leading from the ends of yards ran down to belaying points on the bulwarks (pin rails, cleats or ring bolts in the deck). Some from the longer lower yards led from outboard through sheaves in the bulwarks to belaying points on the bulwarks. Some ships had cleats tied to the shrouds that served as belaying points.

 

3. Lines from lower down were led to forward belaying points and lines from higher up led to more aft belaying points. This was especially necessary where masts had significant rake aft.

 

4. Lines from near the foot/jaws of booms and gaffs led down to belaying points near the base of the mast. Lines from the ends that swung outboard were run down to belaying points near the bulwarks. However on some vessels the lines from the ends of booms led back along the boom to tackle and/or cleats on the boom near the jaws. And in some cases these lines from the ends of booms belayed to tackle that rode on a "horse" on the deck that allowed the tackle to slide port and starboard according to the tack.

 

****

 

The goal was too run each line fair so it did not foul (tangle with) other lines, yards, sails, etc. If you think about it this all makes sense. And this varied in different types of ships and even between ships of the same type.

 

The actual belaying points varied from ship to ship depending on whether or not it had fife rails, cleats on the mast or just ring bolts in the deck (or a combination of these). Or perhaps it just had cleats on the bulwarks instead of pin rails. All of this evolved with time. And in the end it was up to the Captain or bosun to decide what arrangement was easiest to manage. I have seen several accounts telling how the rigging and belaying arrangement changed on a ship after the Captain had seen a "better" way on another ship.

 

****

 

We rarely find a detailed description of belaying points for a particular vessel because everyone knew how it was done. So the ship modeler has to serve as the bosun who decides how to run and belay the lines.

 

[davyboy]

Hi Lyle,

 

The circled block and eyebolt in your first pic are for the Topmast top rope. Your second pic shows this block #502. The Toprope was attatched to the circled eyebolt led through a sheave in the Topmast heel up to the circled block then down. There would be a block or thimble spliced into the end of the top rope for a tackle leading to an eyebolt in the deck abaft the respective Mast. As this was only used to lower a Topmast I shouldn't bother about it as it was usually removed when a ship was underway.

 

Dave 

Edited December 8, 2022 by davyboy

[LyleK1]

Thanks for all the helpful comments.

I’ve got it sorted out… for now!