HMS Diana 1794 by DaveBaxt - Caldercraft - 1:64

[DaveBaxt]

Before I carried on with the inner hull and fitting of 1mm thick planking to simulate spiketting and the deck clamps( next time I do this Iwill fit thicker planking.) I decided to fit some extra balsa wood blocks in areas where there was a large distance between bulkheads. I think this area required strengthening 

 

One thing which I am still unsure about is whether or not a waterway is fitted. Again this is something which should have been fitted earlier. As I have already finished the deck planks and incorporated a margin plank can I also fit something that would simulate a water way. I can see from Goodwins book that a water way is fitted as a watertight seal to prevent water entering this area to prevent rot so I think there would be one and will see if I can fasion something after I have fitted the top riders .

Edited May 20, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

Worked on oar ports which are not on the CC drawings so used the AOTS for reference which gives them as 3.5mm. I am unsure if these are lined with wood of which I could use 0.5mm walnut and make the initial holes bigger but I am considering using 3x3 mm brass tube which I could paint.I think either would look ok. I have also built up around the oar port similar to what I did with the inside of the gun port. This is so I have something to glue to when planking the hull. It should give additional strength too.

[DaveBaxt]

Tested out Shapers just received from Artesania Latina and made up the Skid beam clamps which worked out reasonably well on walnut, however for any trim on the outside of the hull I will try and use Boxwood. I have only a couple of sizes in boxwood for making the trim 2.7 x 2.7mm and 1 mm square . However i have lots of different sezes in walnut. On this occation I used 2 x 3 mm which was the size of  the shaper I used. I now just need to make up the top riders and then considering aiir brushing the internal hull planking but wondering if anything else needs gluing to the internal walls first. I have had to re-position a pair of the oar ports as I put them in the wrong place. 

       Almost ready for the first layer of hull planking after some more fairing of the bulkheads and the balsa wood blocks.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

1st Layer of planking (Lime)

       I made a start on the first layer of planking 1.5mm x 6mm of lime which is very soft but easy to work with. I used Chucks method of edge bending but it always takes me a couple of planks to get into the swing of it. I  Also decided to lay the planks the full length and then cut out the gun ports as I go. This worked quite well but there is one or two areas which hopefully will be hidden one the gun port linings are fitted and sanded flush with the hull. In hind rsite I now wish I had left the sperketting off until after I fitted the liners as it would have been easier to sand them flush on the inside.

         It was important to lay the first plank level with the upper deck so this was temporarily fitted to ensure this was done. I also marked of the hull into 5 zones , each zone comprising of 6 planks. I also used a spare plank to see where each zone ended and tapered each plank accordingly. I hope this worksout ok.

 

             

Edited May 27, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[No Idea]

That really is nice work Dave 👍

[DaveBaxt]

2 hours ago, No Idea said:

That really is nice work Dave 👍

Thank you Mark

[DaveBaxt]

As I continue to add the first layer of lime planks to the final two zones currently the last 12 planks or so to lay before filling and sanding etc. I have been considering whether or not to have open or closed bulwarks. A fewt of the Diana builders have opted for the open bulwarks and this might show the 9Lb cannon and 32 Lb canonade of better bus as I don,t have any specific drawing with sizes, I might follow DavidEN's direction and go for the closed bulkheads.

         Next I need to cut the two forward gun ports out but before this I need to do a bit of work on the hull in this area as this did not come out as well as I had hoped  when laying the planks. I now wish I had built this area up with supports and inner hull planking . Looks like I will need to order a bit more filler.

 

Before I mark out the positions of the upper deck gun ports , I need to ensure that the aft gun port is clear of the quarter galleries and think it mught be easier to fit these first. Lots to think about and decide before actually removing any material. Using a template of the CC drawing rather than the supplied plywood templates seems to work out pretty well but will check this once again against the shrouds and gun port positions. Once I am happy with this then perhaps I can consider moving onto the second layer of planking. Hope  I am making sense.

Edited June 4, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

 

1st layer of planking complete after fitting a number of stealers at the after end. The forward end worked out better apart from where the forward gun ports will be. It would be here where the hull hollows in so will need to figure out a means of shaping by adding s few extra bits of planking over the top and then sanding back again . I might even need to push the planks out a bit from the inside and then bulding up and supporting the gun ports ( which I still need to cut) using 4x4mm walnut on the inside.

II

I still need to add the stern post which I have started making out of boxwood. Before sanding down the first layer of planking I thought I would fit the gun port liners and according to the instructions these are made out of walnut. I am unsure if this is wise as when I need to sand them flush with the first layer of planking which is lime I am concerned the liner will not sand even with the lime planks. I am therefore considering using lime for the liner instead. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.  Now that I am at this point, I have decided I will remove the spirketting  after all, until after I have fitted the liners as I think they are just going to get in my way. I wish I hadn't made such a good job of gluing these.

Edited June 8, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

Extra lime strips 1.5mm x 6 mm were added to the hull in the area where the first two gunports are cut at the curve of the bow.  After sadding down these planks , I then cut the remaining two forward gunports on both sides and added some 4 x4 mm walnut pieces to simulate the frames on the inside of the hull. Some reduction of the upper bulkhead frames was required so that the gunports were perpendicular to the hull. Further preperation to the gun ports to ensure that the correct sizes after the gun port liners are fitted .These sizes were taken from AOTS Diana and not the kit instructions.

Roughly sanded the  hull ready for filling and final sanding to take place but first fitted the gun ports liners using various jigs to ensure the sides ( fitted first) are parrallel with the frames and the top and bottom are parrallel with each other and follow the line of the deck. When checking my stock I found I only had lime in 1.5mm thick lime and not 1 mm so rather than making the gun port holes bigger I decided to use some Tanganyka , perhaps I should have sanded it first before using it as I am reluctant to sand them inside once fitted as the corners are very neat.

 

There is still a fair bit of work going on before I can move onto the second planking such as gluing in place the 1x 3mm walnut planks in the area below the stern counter and cutting the gun ports for the upper quarter deck.I also need to remove the material from the deadwood area, remembering to taper this towards the bottom as with the stern post and rudder at a later date. 

                I now have a fair amount of boxwood for the second planking above the water line. ( very expensive and quite yellow, unlike my other boxwood stock for some reason) Also there is something I need to figure out is the difference in the thickness between the 0.7mm boxwood planking and the 1 mm thick walnut at the water line. I am sure the previous logs of the Diana will hopefully be of aid with this. Unfortunately I was unable to source 1 mm thick boxwood so I went with 0.7mm thick. I still think I will use the boxwood as if not that would mean I have spent a small fortune on both maple for the decks and now boxwood for the hull both of which would probably never be used.

Edited June 17, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

After marking out the quarter deck gun port position I have double checked that they will not interfere with the shrouds in anyway but then decided ti try the stern counter and unsure of it position and also the quarter galleries look to be too close to the upper aft gun port . I have decided to leave the upper gun ports until I have put together a 32Lb canonade and check the height of the gun barrel above the upper deck and perhaps I can  judge the position better of the quarter galleries and check they are clear of the aft gun ports. There is also the position of the wales ro consider. Any tips or guidance in the matter would be gratefully received.  In the mean time I now need to once again fit the sperketting and also the riders and paint the inside of the bulwarks and gun port liners with red orche. 

Edited June 18, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Beef Wellington]

Looking very nice Dave!  I think your decision to hold off on cutting the upper cannon/carronade ports is a sound one, these are no harder to do at a later date and as you indicate, you will have more data points to make a good decision.  As I'm sure you've read, the placement of the stern fascia is difficult and can result in frustration down the road.  The advice I would give would be to determine the position of the quarter galleries first (the bottom of the quarter gallery lights are at exactly the same height above the main deck as the lower edge of the gunports).  This then will allow you to position the stern fascia with confidence as the sweep of the lower edge of the stern lights meets up with the lower edge of the quarter gallery lights. (You will need to account for the additional distance to the outside of the quarter gallery here).  Adjustments to the lines of the upper and lower counter to match are more easily done at this point.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Beef Wellington

[DaveBaxt]

6 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

Looking very nice Dave!  I think your decision to hold off on cutting the upper cannon/carronade ports is a sound one, these are no harder to do at a later date and as you indicate, you will have more data points to make a good decision.  As I'm sure you've read, the placement of the stern fascia is difficult and can result in frustration down the road.  The advice I would give would be to determine the position of the quarter galleries first (the bottom of the quarter gallery lights are at exactly the same height above the main deck as the lower edge of the gunports).  This then will allow you to position the stern fascia with confidence as the sweep of the lower edge of the stern lights meets up with the lower edge of the quarterdeck lights. (You will need to account for the additional distance to the outside of the quarter gallery here).  Adjustments to the lines of the upper and lower counter to match are more easily done at this point.

 

 

Thanks Jason for stepping in with this excellent information . I was thinking that the quarter deck lights might be key to this but was unsure  how but I am still concerned they are too close to that after upper gun port position and that why I thought I would build another cannon and check the lower edge might need raising a little and give me a bit of room. This build has giving me quite a few headaches for sure but thanks to you rand other guys patience and help I am soldering on. 

 

             Noticed last night on closer inspection whilst applying some filler to the hull that one or too of the lower  gun port edges has broken off perhaps insufficient glue but beginning to think tanganyka was probably not a great choice of wood. ( too much long grain) I am currently waiting on a delivery of 1mm x 8mm lime but there has been a mix up with my order and I have been waiting over a week for this, so perhaps I should have waited.  As per instructions pehaps walnut was meant to be. Sometimes I just think I over think things.

 

    Thanks again for all the likes and I apologize to all for dragging this log on . I am already mid way through 4 pages ( where most of you can get to this stage in 1 or two) but hopefully you will stick with me as I think alound sort of speak. Cheers Dave

Edited June 18, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

Preparation for second planking. 

               It would appear now is a good time to paint the inner bulwarks and gun port linings prior to fitting the second planking. However before doing so it was evident that the skidbeam clamps were too big for the 4 x4 mm riders to be fitted over the top of these so I ended up removing them and making smaller ones out of 2 x 1mm. I think this was an improvement. I made the riders on my Proxxon milling machine but was not entirely happy with these.

         I gave the inside of the bulwarks a coat of shellac before painting with Caldercraft red orchre which looks very authentic for this period but could be wrong as I am no expert. I also tried my hand at air brushing for the first time as I did not want to lose any detail and build up of paint anywhere. I am quite pleased with the result ( apart from a few areas of masking which I missed even though it took me almost half a day to do)

      I have also found some brass square section for the oar sweeps. I intend to blacken these and will fit them after the boxwood second planking is fitted.) The preparation for the second planking is almost complete apart from removing some material from the dead wood area. and remember to taper this towards the bottom to take the tapered boxwood rudder post which I have already made.

        I am unsure of the following but I am thinking of protecting the inner bulwark and gun ports with a matt varnish due to the gun port liners being soft tanganyka. I am aware that there may be items which require gluing at a later stage to the bulwark and will require sanding back in these areas. 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[AJohnson]

Looking good Dave, you are making really good progress! 👍

[DaveBaxt]

17 minutes ago, AJohnson said:

Looking good Dave, you are making really good progress! 👍

Thank you Andrew. As the Weather is now beginning to really warm up and holidays are starting to come around I am mostly wotking in the mornings but unlike last summer I have not taken a complete break as yet. Once things cool down again I am hoping to get back to rigging the Endeavour and perhaps just work on the Diana occationally until the Endeavour is finished. Best laid plans and all that................

[Beef Wellington]

Looking very nice David, think all these small details, although somewhat obscured, make for a much more satisfying result.

[DaveBaxt]

6 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

Looking very nice David, think all these small details, although somewhat obscured, make for a much more satisfying result.

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement Jason

[DaveBaxt]

After one or two smaller jobs such filling the hull section below the counter with 1 x 3 mm walnut and then making the hole for the rudder post and rudder I have now moved onto the positioning of the top of the wale. For this I used the measurements from the AOTS book taken from below each gun port which turned out to be pretty close to the supplied drawings. I appreciate the importance of the position of the wale and after gluing into position the first plank of 1 x 4mm walnut I think it looks ok and compairing the distances between port and starboard wales from the keel it looks to be pretty close .

I also marked off the position of the quarter deck gun ports and fitted beams on the insides with 3 x 4 mm walnut. I also have made up some 12Lb cannon and 32 Lb cannonade to check the heights of these gun ports and look to be ok and hopefully there is some adjustment on the cannon so they will sit centrally in the gun ports.

Bb

         Before moving onto the second planking I still need to mark off the water line. I have already marked off the zones for planking with yellow masking tape. As yet I am unsure whether to lay the provided copper plates  as the nails are way out of scale. However I do like the look of DavidEN patina looking plates but I have continued to consider painting something similar on the bottom instead. I therefore need to make the second planking as neat as I can below the water line. I need the practice too.

           As I have also decided to use boxwood from the waterline up for the second planking I can see there is quite a few planks to change between boxwood and walnut which is a minimum of 0.3mm so could be a lot of sanding the walnut. At the moment |I am unsure how far above the water line the copper plates are fitted to allow for trim, weather etc so still need to do some research on this.  As this is the first time I have used different types of wood on the hull  I am a little concerned about this transition between the 0.7 mm and 1mm to 1.25mm thickness of walnut  and how to get a nice smooth transition. At first I thought it was simply a case of changing from boxwood to walnut at the wale and continuing with walnut below the wale. If not I will probably need quite a bit more boxwood. Think I will probably go for some different sizes smaller than 6 mm wide to hopefully make those planks easy to lay  around those tight curves at the stern and less sanding as they are only 0.7mm thick.

  

      

Edited June 28, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

Before adding anymore planks to the wale I decided to make up a few of the parts for the quarter lights and see how they line up with the aft end and  line up with the gun ports etc

Although this is just a rough idea what goes where, something is not quite right. With the stern counter in what I think is the correct position, the windows just in line above the floor and the top of the counter lining up with the upper bulwarks . The quarter lights look to be too high but follow the line of the deck. In this position the whole thing appears to miss the upper and lower gun ports which is mainly what I am pleased about . Unfortunately there is a probllem with the bottom of the quarter light housing and it looks as though I will need to lower the stern end of the wale so that only the bottom cast fitting just rests on the wale. I think this is the correct position for it but could be wrong.

              I still need to add a few parts to the quarter light housing but  unsure what I have done wrong as I was fairly confident that the wale was in the correct position but will have to check again.  Any ideas where I might be going wrong with this and thank you again for your help and patience. Best regards Dave

Edited June 28, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[Beef Wellington]

I think you'll find that gallery former is very oversized.  Suggest determining the right size and then playing around with the various items to get the best compromize.  I never used this part.  There are going to be compromises needed between the plans, AOTS and even the original plans because none of them reconcile exactly.  Playing with the PE quarter gallery lights may also help you get a better sense of the final visual proportions.  Good luck!

Edited June 30, 2023 by Beef Wellington

[allanyed]

44 minutes ago, Beef Wellington said:

I think you'll find that gallery former is very oversized. 

Hard to tell from the photos what is what dimensionally, but you are right it does look oversized.  

David, maybe the below will help.  From RMG for Diana,  Artois et al     In the photos it seems the counters do not curve far enough forward.  Might just be the angle of the photos.   Pic at the QD is below to check.

Allan

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

            Thank you Jason and Allan  for you help in the problems with the quarter galleries and wales , It seems to me that every time I deviate from the Caldercraft drawing and use other means there are consequences further down the line. As I wasn't happy with the quarter galleries where they meet with the top of the wales, I decided to check the position of the top of wales against the Caldercraft plans ( heights above the keel at each gun port)  there are some discrepencees between this and the distance below each gun port taken from the AOTS book. It is my belief that as I altered the height of the gun ports to ensure that the Bloomfield cannon would be central in the gun port , I may have changed the position of the top plank of the wale, when taking measurements from the gun port.  I therefore decided to use the measurement from the keel at each gun port from the Caldercraft plans  instead of from the bottom of the gun ports ( measured from the AOTS Diana). Interestingy enough this has not altered the height of the wale of any significance at the stem and stern. For what it is worth I decided to remove the original first planks of the wale and re position them( using new ones)  and taking  the measurement from the keel and hopefully this will give the lines a better look. 

          Jason your idea of the quarter galleries in the kit being too big is definately worth exploring and may be the answer I have been looking for. Allen the problem with the counter is not that it bends too far as bending it further would move the quarter gallery further forward and then would end up too close to the last quarter deck gun port. If anything I thought about extendng the frame to move the stern counter further aft if anything  but think that is a bit drastic. Allan I am pleased you posted those drawings as it does look like the supplied stern galleries are way too big. I will need to check these sizes with the AOTS book sizes as I am unsure how to take the sizes from RMG Diana and see where I am with this.

          I would like to thank you guys again for your help and guidence as it is helping me a great deal. I would also like to thank everyone else for all the likes as this is encouraging me to keep going.

                Here is what I hope is the final position of the wale . These are the 1mm walnut planks which sit under the final layer of planks. I will probably use walnut for the wale as this will be painted black.

         

  

Edited July 1, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

 Allan thank you for those sizes on your drawing but unsure what the 25.5 " measurement is for ? Perhaps when you get a chance, you could clear that up for me.Thank you once again. for your help I think  I will need  to start from scratch with these galleries and build them up from the bottom and add a few pieces at a time,  as did DaveEN. I definately need to give this a bit more thought as I continue with the wales and second planking which could take me some time due to the transition areas between the Walnut and the boxwood, esppecially as they are different widths . Hopefully this can be achieved when spilling the planks foreward but still need to work this out at the aft end.  

[allanyed]

David

Sorry, I should have marked it better.  I uploaded the drawing into CAD then scaled it to full size.   The 25.5 inches is actually a slight mistake.  I just re-measured and it should be closer to 26 inches.  It is the width of the lights on the quarter galleries.  Revised pic is below

Allan

[allanyed]

I got curious and inserted your photo into the drawing as well.  The gun ports per the drawing should be 35.5" fore and aft.   I sized your photo to match the gun port width of the drawing.  Given that port dimension on your model is correct, the dimension I gave above of 128.5" looks to be closer to 144" on your model.   The openings for the lights are 22" and the space between 17" compared to the 26" and 7" on the drawing.  I am probably not making any sense, but maybe the below will help.  I realize this is not accounting for the slight curve in the z axis, but should be pretty close IF the dimensions I am guessing at on the model photo are close.  Sorry for the full size dimensions, but it is easier on the CAD drawing for me.

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

I got curious and inserted your photo into the drawing as well.  The gun ports per the drawing should be 35.5" fore and aft.   I sized your photo to match the gun port width of the drawing.  Given that port dimension on your model is correct, the dimension I gave above of 128.5" looks to be closer to 144" on your model.   The openings for the lights are 22" and the space between 17" compared to the 26" and 7" on the drawing.  I am probably not making any sense, but maybe the below will help.  I realize this is not accounting for the slight curve in the z axis, but should be pretty close IF the dimensions I am guessing at on the model photo are close.  Sorry for the full size dimensions, but it is easier on the CAD drawing for me.

Allan

Than you Allan for clearing up those sizes for me and giving me something to work wth . I will give everything another check over and see if I can work out what the differences are, althoug I am not sure you can go from the gun port sizes as these are taken form the drawings supplied by the kit plans, which were pretty near the AOTS plans and think this is perhaps where the sizes were origonally taken.

[allanyed]

Hi Dave

FWIW, the scantlings in The Shipbuilder's Repository shows these ports for a 38 at 35" fore and aft and Steel's Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture gives them at 34"   Further they both give the distance from the aft side of the after most port as being 7 feet 0 inches forward of the aft perpendicular.  Even with these scantlings I would compare them to a contemporary as-built drawing or at least a contemporary design drawing or a contract.   I would not rely on modern drawings without first comparing them to contemporary based drawings and/or scantlings.  Once bitten, twice shy.

Allan

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

Thank you again Allan for taking up your time and checking out these sizes for me and hopefully allow me double check. Your will to help is a credit to you.

The most worrying aspect of your sizes for me is the 43"measurement between the forward edge of the quarter gallery to the aft side of the stern post and after I have converted into metric( sorry but lost the knack of using imperial  measurements many moons ago) and applied the 1:64 scale I am way out for some reason. I will revearse this on my model and also with the AOTS drawing and perhaps I can figure out why my maths is now so bad.

Edited July 2, 2023 by DaveBaxt

[allanyed]

I  scaled the drawing to 1:64 and get 17mm.    IF the contemporary drawing is correct, it could be the kit got it wrong.  I was curious to know what the AOTS book showed dimensionally so downloaded their drawing and compared.  (Forgot I had that book 😕) There is a 10" difference between the AOTS and the drawing from 1774.  Note that the widest part of the quarter gallery is the same on the original drawing and the AOTS drawing.   

Allan

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by allanyed

[DaveBaxt]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

I  scaled the drawing to 1:64 and get 17mm.    IF the contemporary drawing is correct, it could be the kit got it wrong.  I was curious to know what the AOTS book showed dimensionally so downloaded their drawing and compared.  (Forgot I had that book 😕) There is a 10" difference between the AOTS and the drawing from 1774.  Note that the widest part of the quarter gallery is the same on the original drawing and the AOTS drawing.   

Allan

 

Sorry to be a pain Allan can you clarify what the 34" measurement is ie is it from the aft gun port to the fwid upper edge of the rudder or something else ? Once again thak you.Best regards Dave