Scroll saw versus band saw

[Juddson]

For work such as preparing frames and futtocks, am I better off with a scroll saw or a band saw?  What are the advantages and disadvantages of these? 

[Jaager]

I use a bandsaw (9"-old MM Taiwan -type) -  I would not use it for much else, but for scroll cutting it does a good job.

The key augment is the Carter Products Stabilizer. 

The attaching post is too small for my machine - A couple of slices from K&S brass telescoping tubes  with windows for the set screw fixed that problem.

Were I to be in the market for another 9" (or 10") benchtop bandsaw, my first decision point would be to make sure that there was a Carter Stabilizer made for it.

At the time, the Stabilizer cost about as much as the saw.  It is still ~$100. 

It allows the blade to swing like a screen door.  I would not wish to scroll cut if the blade was fixed using upper and lower guides.

 

Using just my imagination as my guide,  I started with 1/16" blades - they were soon removed from the market.  I then went to 1/8" blades.  My unit uses the common 59.5" blade length.

Most of the brands are poor - snap easily and are dull.  I decided to go quality domestic.  I saw a deal on Olsen blades and bought a case.  I did not read closely.  They were 1/4" blades.

I decided to try them anyway - given that I was stuck with them.  Their arc is less than with a 1/8", but the difference is insignificant.  The 1/4" blades are sharp and they last far far longer than a 1/8" blade.

I was a very beneficial mistake.

 

Now - down to the question -  bandsaw blades have set.  The kerf is wide.  The wood surface left is not smooth.   A cut close to the line is not advised.

I use a method where I align the timbers using pins placed outside the edge of the timbers.  Getting close to the line is not something I want.  I even have a wide border around the pin sites, because the set sneaks up on me.  A slice into a pin hole looses me that pin hole.

I often use Hard Maple for my framing.  I can scroll thru 1/4" thick stock about as fast as I can accurately guide the cut.   (As long as some of the tiny cut offs do not sneak into the blade's track and jam or cause resistance.  Those plastic inserts for the blade at the tabletop do not last long.  I made Maple replacements and the chunks get thrown instead.  For the blade to take advantage of the Stabilizer,  the insert must have a hole instead of a slit, so that the blade can swing.

 

 

I have an economy model of a MM scroll saw.  It is junk.  It is under powered.  The blade clamps are poor and weak.  The work chatters.  No way it could cut 1/4" Hard Maple.

 

If you want close to the line, a high quality scroll saw is what is needed.  Hand or powered. 

 

I use sleeveless sanding drums.  A 80 grit paper on a 3" dia. x 6" long drum mounted on the 1/2" shaft of a 1/3 HP totally enclosed cooling fan motor does not take long to remove any excess wood left by my bandsaw.

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Jaager

[Bob Cleek]

While curves can be cut on a bandsaw, of course, I do think a good scroll saw is a much more versatile sawing tool for fine work such as is encountered in modeling. A scroll saw will permit you to stop the forward progress of a cut, rotate the workpiece without limitation, and start off in another direction without ever having to turn the saw off.  Similarly, a scroll saw can cut a circle or any other shape inside the perimeter of a workpiece which is simply not possible with a bandsaw. The scroll saw will also accept a far wider variety of cutting blades including omnidirectional ones which, again, are simply not possible with a bandsaw. If you do decide on a bandsaw, and you have the room in your shop, you'd do well to get a standard Delta 14" bandsaw or one of the many Asian clones (I'm sure any patents expired ages ago.) (Jet and Grizzly are reliable retailers of these and there are many available on the used market.) 

 

Buyers have to be careful buying scroll saws. There is a very wide range of price and corresponding quality in scroll saws and you definitely get what you pay for. One should do a fair amount of online research before "pulling the pin" to avoid disappointment and a waste of money. (Small "mini scroll saws" sold in most of the ship modeling catalogs, e.g. Dremel, Proxxon, and MicroMark, are generally underpowered and overpriced in my opinion.) Scroll saws are a "gateway" power tool with a wide market base of hobbyists. A lot of them are bought by entry level hobbyists who later find themselves no longer interested in their hobby and little-used scroll saws can be found on the used market quite easily. This is great if you find one of the $750 to $2,000 top of the line scroll saws for $100, and not so great if you pay $100 for a scroll saw that was junk the day it rolled off the assembly line. At the bottom of the heap in the "big box" stores, Wen and DeWalt "swing arm" models in the $150 to $300 range often get reasonably good reviews but they are not even in the same zip code with the "parallel arm" models made by Hegner, Sakura, Excalibur, and King Industrial. The major price difference is between "swing arm" and "parallel link arm" scroll saws. The latter move the blade in an up and down motion perpendicular to the table (if the table is set flat) while the former "swing" the blade in an arc when sawing. The primary quality distinctions in scroll saws are 1. Type of arm, swing or parallel link, 2. motor power, and perhaps most importantly, 3. lack of vibration, all of which are directly related to the accuracy the saw is capable of delivering. At the inexpensive end of the scale are tools which vibrate so much, even when bolted down to a solid surface, that they are near useless for doing fine work. 

 

This isn't to say that one has to spend $750 and up to acquire a decent scroll saw. Even if one "pays retail" for a new saw, good work can be done with DeWalt's parallel link arm 20" scroll saw. DEWALT Scroll Saw, Variable-Speed, 1.3 Amp (DW788), Yellow, 20-Inch - Power Table Saws - Amazon.com

 

It really isn't an "either or" question. If you want to cut pieces for built-up hull framing, a good scroll saw is the tool for the job. If you want to resaw billets for model work, a bandsaw is the tool for the job. You can use a bandsaw with a narrow blade to roughly cut curves within the limits of your blade's width and then "sand to the line," to achieve a sufficiently accurate result, but that's not really what the bandsaw is made for. You can also us a scroll saw to cut thick billets within the limits of its throat opening, but that's not what it's made for, either, and you'll probably break a lot of blades trying. 

 

So, as Mr. Natural says,

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Juddson]

Wow, these responses are truly helpful.  It seems fairly clear that I should be looking at scroll saws, parallel link arm types.  The Dewalt you linked to looks good.  The one from Jet gets good reviews too.  I had not thought of buying a used one - that may be better.  A better saw for my money if it makes the trip OK. 

[grsjax]

This isn't a top of the line scroll saw but I find that for the price it is very good.  Well built and not much vibration when running.  Used with out bolting it down on my workbench and had no issues.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07T4N9L93/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Roger Pellett]

In general, I am of the opinion that with a few notable exceptions (Byrnes and Sherline) when it comes to power tools, “they don’t make ‘‘em like they used to.”  My shop is, therefore,  equipped with old, solidly built, equipment.  
 

On the other hand I would be leery about buying a used scroll saw.  My old power tools all have separate motors with power transmitted to the tool by V belts.  If the motor dies or if the tool is underpowered it is a simple matter to replace it with a new or more powerful one bought from a local electric supply house.  V belts, likewise are stocked by hardware stores.   Scroll saws, however, almost always are powered by “integral motors.”  The motor is built right into the tool.  If the motor on one of these dies, or if the internal transmission system fails repair probably means dealing with the manufacturer- possibly one overseas.

 

Roger

Edited April 9, 2023 by Roger Pellett

[allanyed]

On 4/5/2023 at 5:39 PM, Bob Cleek said:

While curves can be cut on a bandsaw, of course, I do think a good scroll saw is a much more versatile sawing tool for fine work such as is encountered in modeling.

Based on scales smaller than 1/12 I totally agree.  The ideal situation is to have both I suppose if you have the needs.   I have had both and finally sold the band saw to a neighbor that does carpentry work when I realized I rarely used it.   I then replaced my old scroll saw which had the shakes with a new Dewalt and could not be happier.  Some stores in the US s  offer 10% discounts to military vets so don't forget to ask.

 

Allan

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by allanyed

[Jaager]

On 4/5/2023 at 5:39 PM, Bob Cleek said:

While curves can be cut on a bandsaw, of course, I do think a good scroll saw is a much more versatile sawing tool for fine work such as is encountered in modeling.

Yes, I concur. 

My focus is on frame timbers.  If there are serious curves involved here,  Lucy, you've got a problem.  Shallow arcs are the usual worst, except  when getting to the AP.  My bandsaw does this easily. 

For  the sharper curves, I backup, cut a keyhole and rotate the stock.  I use 2' long stock and I have to crosscut into shorter sections.  The clearance on a 9" top is not all that much.  When I arrange the patterns, I never seem to leave a clear crosscut path, so it is sometimes a fun experience.

 

I question if most economy scroll saws are engineered to cut ~1/4" Hard Maple - and Castillo is even more dense.  I suspect it requires a serious model scroll saw to cut stock for POF above the 1:70's scale.

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

In general, I am of the opinion that with a few notable exceptions (Byrnes and Sherline) when it comes to power tools, “they don’t make ‘‘em like they used to.”  My shop is, therefore,  equipped with old, solidly built, equipment.  
 

On the other hand I would be leery about buying a used scroll saw.  My old power tools all have separate motors with power transmitted to the tool by V belts.  If the motor dies or if the tool is underpowered it is a simple matter to replace it with a new or more powerful one bought from a local electric supply house.  V belts, likewise are stocked by hardware stores.   Scroll saws, however, almost always are powered by “integral motors.”  The motor is built right into the tool.  If the motor on one of these dies, or if the internal transmission system fails repair probably means dealing with the manufacturer- possibly one overseas.

 

Roger

"Old 'arn?" Are you talking about the early 1950's cast iron King Seeley-built Craftsman "jigsaws" that ran off of a stock Craftsman cast iron capacitor-starting 1/2 or 3/4 HP motor?  (This was in the days when these machines were called "jigsaws" and the hand-held gizmos were called "saber saws.") Definitely built to "take a lickin' and keep on tickin". I inherited one of these beasts from the original owner, my father, and I'd say they are quite workable for relatively heavy work, but are definitely "bucking broncos" that have to be seriously secured or they'll bounce all over the place. I bolt the stand of mine to a heavy solidly secured workbench and now only use it for detail work on a scale somewhere between my 14" Delta bandsaw clone and my 14" Sakura which had a list price of around $600 and I was able to purchase barely used from a fellow for $100.

 

Note that ~75 year old cast iron Craftsman has a mechanism unseen in today's scroll saws. The blades' vertical movement is driven by a transmission below while the top of the blade is tensioned by an air piston spring-dampening mechanism to which the top of the blade is attached. The upper arm can be easily removed by unscrewing the crown nut at the rear of the upper arm. This then permits a single ended saber saw blade to be attached to the lower drive mechanism and the saw to be operated as a stationary saber saw.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Bob Cleek]

27 minutes ago, Jaager said:

I question if most economy scroll saws are engineered to cut ~1/4" Hard Maple - and Castillo is even more dense.  I suspect it requires a serious model scroll saw to cut stock for POF above the 1:70's scale.

Excellent point and I think an important one to emphasize. Many of the lower-end scroll saws are lightly built low-powered models designed for the "crafters' market" and aren't intended to hog through thick sections of hardwood. When selecting a scroll saw, I think it's important to spend a lot of time reading the reviews and being aware that there are definitely two distinct ends of the quality spectrum when it comes to scroll saws. If one is choosing a scroll saw model on the basis of price alone, you may well be buying an expensive door-stop.

[allanyed]

35 minutes ago, Jaager said:

I suspect it requires a serious model scroll saw to cut stock for POF above the 1:70's scale.

I cannot speak for others, but this has never been a problem for me.  I have cut two sets of castello frames (about 1000 pieces for the floors, futtocks and top timbers) for a 1:48 and a 1:64 hull with my DW788 saw without any issues whatsoever.  I did break two blades in the process but that is a two minute fix for a couple dollars.

 

For slitting billets, I found that a band saw is the best way to go as it works well and makes for less sawdust than a table saw.  When I find the need I just borrow the one I sold to the guy down the street.  😀

 

Allan  

[Bob Cleek]

37 minutes ago, allanyed said:

I cannot speak for others, but this has never been a problem for me.  I have cut two sets of castello frames (about 1000 pieces for the floors, futtocks and top timbers) for a 1:48 and a 1:64 hull with my DW788 saw without any issues whatsoever. 

That's not at all surprising.  You've definitely got what Jaager calls "a serious model scroll saw!"  The DeWalt DW788 has consistently been ranked a "best buy" in the annual tool reviews. I'd say it's at "the bottom of the top" in quality and features and "at the top of the bottom" in price. In other words, it's a fairly priced tool that does what it's supposed to do. It's definitely a quality tool. Nobody that I know of makes a less expensive double parallel-link arm scroll saw. I've never read a complaint about it in the reviews. That said, it retails for close to $400, so I wouldn't put it at all in the same class as the $100 to $200 "Big Box Store Specials" from the Bejing Patriotic Peoples' Export Power Tool Collective. 

 

 

DEWALT Scroll Saw, Variable-Speed, 1.3 Amp (DW788), Yellow, 20-Inch - Power Table Saws - Amazon.com

 

 

[Rudolf]

Hi Juddson,

I have been using  an old Hegner scroll saw for 20 years or so, I had bought used and I am still happy with it.

I has  multiple speeds and thus  gives you a lot of control over your cut. It looks pretty much like the red saw in  Bob Cleeks post. Hegner is still made in Germany

Greetings

Rudolf

[KeithAug]

On 4/6/2023 at 1:47 AM, Juddson said:

 I had not thought of buying a used one - that may be better.  

I would think twice about buying a second hand parallel link saw. The linkage is prone to wear and is pretty costly to replace. With worn linkage it will dance itself off the table, even at moderate speeds. Only consider second hand if you can give it a really good test run.

[Rudolf]

22 hours ago, KeithAug said:

I would think twice about buying a second hand parallel link saw. The linkage is prone to wear and is pretty costly to replace. With worn linkage it will dance itself off the table, even at moderate speeds. Only consider second hand if you can give it a really good test run.

I must have ben lucky then, my Hegner saw still runs very smoothly, very little  vibration, even a higher speeds.  

I must try a new one once and see if if there is a difference.

Those saws, albeit pricey seem to be quite popular in Germany and Austria.

Greetings, Rudolf

[Jaager]

1 hour ago, Rudolf said:

I must have ben lucky then, my Hegner saw

It has been my impression that Hegner is the ultimate in quality.   You bought a 'no way to loose' model.  Unlike most manufacturers, I doubt that 'planned obsolescence' figures into Hegner's engineering.

[KeithAug]

3 hours ago, Rudolf said:

I must have ben lucky then, my Hegner saw still runs very smoothly, very little  vibration, even a higher speeds.  

I think you misunderstand. I was referring to the parallel link type of scroll saw. These tend to have more pivot points and link bearings than the parallel arm type. The Henger is a parallel arm type. The advantage of the parallel arm type is its greater simplicity but this is achieved at the expense of a greater oscillating mass. Parallel arm types tend to need heavy construction (mass) to limit the vibration. The parallel link type have a much lower oscillating mass and hence the vibrations are inherently less but the disadvantage is that wear is more pronounced.

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, KeithAug said:

I think you misunderstand. I was referring to the parallel link type of scroll saw. These tend to have more pivot points and link bearings than the parallel arm type. The Henger is a parallel arm type. The advantage of the parallel arm type is its greater simplicity but this is achieved at the expense of a greater oscillating mass. Parallel arm types tend to need heavy construction (mass) to limit the vibration. The parallel link type have a much lower oscillating mass and hence the vibrations are inherently less but the disadvantage is that wear is more pronounced.

 

 

This is another example proving that there is a direct correlation between weight (mass) and accuracy in stationary power tools. This is what often makes  buying used "old 'arn" power tools a wise investment.