Sovereign of the Seas by Larryboy - Mantua/ Sergal - 1/78

[Larryboy]

I purchased the kit in 2000 and have finally decided to build it. I hope I am not overwhelmed.  Would someone please tell me if the instruction booklet is available to purchase or download and print? My kit only has the small white booklet with it and it's definitely not enough for me to build this model. 

[mtdoramike]

I can't wait to see how you progress with this beauty. Did it come with the set of plans? Did you buy this kit second hand? 

[ccoyle]

Hi, Larry.

 

I'm going to give you some possibly unpopular advice. If you have a SOTS (Sovereign of the Seas) kit and are looking for instructions to build it, that's a pretty good sign that you aren't ready to build it. SOTS is one of the most difficult kits you could ever take on as a project, and Italian manufacturers are notorious for their poor instructions. Someone who is actually capable of tackling that kit, i.e., a seasoned modeler, doesn't really even need those instructions. So before you dig into SOTS, may I suggest you read through this topic first? I know the guy that wrote it -- he's kinda goofy, but he means well. After that, give some serious thought to investing in a simpler first project. Finishing one will increase by orders of magnitude your chance of completing SOTS successfully. For ideas on what to build first, look through the build logs and find ones that have both "finished" and "first build" in the title. Each of those represents a builder who got his or her hobby off to a good start, and everyone here would like to see you become a part of that accomplished group.

 

Cheers!

[No Idea]

26 minutes ago, ccoyle said:

Hi, Larry.

 

I'm going to give you some possibly unpopular advice. If you have a SOTS (Sovereign of the Seas) kit and are looking for instructions to build it, that's a pretty good sign that you aren't ready to build it. SOTS is one of the most difficult kits you could ever take on as a project, and Italian manufacturers are notorious for their poor instructions. Someone who is actually capable of tackling that kit, i.e., a seasoned modeler, doesn't really even need those instructions. So before you dig into SOTS, may I suggest you read through this topic first? I know the guy that wrote it -- he's kinda goofy, but he means well. After that, give some serious thought to investing in a simpler first project. Finishing one will increase by orders of magnitude your chance of completing SOTS successfully. For ideas on what to build first, look through the build logs and find ones that have both "finished" and "first build" in the title. Each of those represents a builder who got his or her hobby off to a good start, and everyone here would like to see you become a part of that accomplished group.

 

Cheers!

I really admire the honesty of this post - It says it all - SOTS is a beautiful beast of a ship and I couldn't build it yet.  I see too many builds start and falter which puts the builder off of our amazing hobby.  Great advice above which as the OP says will probably be unpopular. 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Chris is right to point out that no kit results in a build of Sovereign of the Seas without gross simplifications (primarily in the decorations) or accuracy in many of this early great ship's original features.  As a current builder of SotS, I can attest that the best way to build it accurately (from what little we know of the ship) is scratch building using LOTS of research and study or bashing (modifying) the framework of a kit as a starting point with every increasing replacements of parts with 100% scratch built rigging at the end.  I searched high and low for a shortcut that would provide instructions to correctly represent this most decorated of man-of-war, but in the end had to come to grips with the reality that it doesn't exist.  Practice on other models before you tackle the Sovereign, and be prepared to spend 90% of your time digging out research sources and reading them instead of building, and do not believe everything you read, but compare information sources.  You will have to make hundreds of personal choices taken from the interpretations of others and choose what make most sense to you using your judgement when it comes to the ship's features, and most of them are unsupported as you how correct they are.  So, build the ship as best as you can.  John McKay's book is a prime example of one interpretation of the ship that contains horribly wrong features from bad guesswork and interpretational choices.  The book looks pretty, but aside from the decorations, don't trust the hull structure.  If you can survive the frustration and fear that goes with huge amounts of educated guesswork, you may be able to tackle the Sovereign once your crafting skills are at least at an intermediate level.  Do your own homework, you'll make a better model, and accept the fact that no matter what, your model will not look precisely like other's models.

 

Below is my 90% scratch build of the Sovereign, starting with the DeAgostini kit hull.  Other kit like the Mantua kit can offer a fair starting point, but also require massive hull changes, particularly to the stern.  Best source for details on the features are James Sephton's Sovereign of the Seas - The Seventeenth Century Warship, Peter Lely's painting "Portrait of Peter Pett", Sir John Payne's Print of HMS Sovereign of the Seas, Willem van de Velde's sketch of SotS (after the 1658-1661 rebuild), and Hendrik Busmann's Sovereign of the Seas - Die Skulpturen des britischen Königsschiffes von 1637 (rare and expensive out of print book in German on the decorations of the SotS).

Edited April 26, 2023 by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS

[Katsumoto]

16 hours ago, Larryboy said:

I purchased the kit in 2000 and have finally decided to build it. I hope I am not overwhelmed.  Would someone please tell me if the instruction booklet is available to purchase or download and print? My kit only has the small white booklet with it and it's definitely not enough for me to build this model. 

Hi Larry,

 

Try to contact these guys and they can probably help you out.
Welcome to Mantua Model UK Wooden Model Ship and Boat kits

 

Good luck with the build of this beauty and please take the advice of the members here into account. 

 

[Baker]

 

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Soleil-Royal-Construction-Plans-Set--960.html#SID=136

 

But,

If this is your first. Consider starting with a simpler model first 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Baker

[allanyed]

6 hours ago, DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:

be prepared to spend 90% of your time digging out research sources and reading them instead of building, and do not believe everything you read, but compare information sources. 

I second the above posts and would go so far as to say put away the box for another few years or sell it and go with something that will teach versus frustrate you.  Darius makes great points and I would add that the research into any ship can be as much fun (and frustrating at times) as the build itself.  

Good luck on your journey.

Allan

 

 

[mtdoramike]

I maybe the only one to say, build it. You have it, start a build log first off and ask questions, post pictures of your progress. There are videos on Youtube regarding the building process of the SOS, which will help you tremendously. I also don 't agree with the need for scratch building or bashing of this kit in order to build a beautiful example of the SOS. Majority of kits will produce exceptable models without scratching or bashing unless your attempts are to make it your own.

 

Disclaimer: Take the above advice with a grain of salt because it comes from someone who hides in the wings, waiting for guys that bite off more than they can chew and later swoop in and adopt those orphaned kits that wide eyed first time builders attempt and then later drop like a hot rock. The SOS is one of the orphaned kits on my list to adopt. 

[ccoyle]

1 hour ago, mtdoramike said:

Disclaimer: Take the above advice with a grain of salt because it comes from someone who hides in the wings, waiting for guys that bite off more than they can chew and later swoop in and adopt those orphaned kits that wide eyed first time builders attempt and then later drop like a hot rock. The SOS is one of the orphaned kits on my list to adopt. 

 

We know this is true! 😄

[Larryboy]

Thanks guys, I appreciate what you have said.  This is not my first build I guess I should go to my profile page and tell a little about myself. One thing is that I am the type of builder who likes to have instructions of some kind to refer to. I bought my kit from Model Expo because it was on special sale at the time ($400). I have built a lot of models but don't do much kit bashing or scratch building.  Yes, I think this will be a good time to look at the build logs that you all have posted. Thanks again. 

[mtdoramike]

Well at $400.00 for an SOS kit, that was a steal of a deal even back then. I build mainly by plans, instructions are at best confusing and at worst down right misleading.

[mtdoramike]

1 hour ago, ccoyle said:

 

We know this is true! 😄

Amen brother!

[allanyed]

5 hours ago, mtdoramike said:

Majority of kits will produce exceptable models

I agree Michael, great results are often the exception rather than the rule.   On the other hand this is not exactly a team sport so it is up to the individual builder as to what he/she finds to be acceptable.

Allan

[OllieS]

If you are truly thrilled by the SoS then do that one. If not then go to Vanguard Models and choose a level that you are comfortable with there. Perfect for the non-basher or scratcher I think. 

[md1400cs]

Hi Larry,

 

Click here for current manual.

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/manuals/mantua/787.pdf

 

Thanks for your post within my log. 

Hopefully helpful. Still a work in progress, but hull, and decks are  completed.

 

Good luck!! 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by md1400cs

[mtdoramike]

On 4/26/2023 at 2:20 PM, allanyed said:

I agree Michael, great results are often the exception rather than the rule.   On the other hand this is not exactly a team sport so it is up to the individual builder as to what he/she finds to be acceptable.

Allan

If I built soley for myself, I would agree with you, but I don't. I build for others and after building well over 200 models over the past 25 years, the vast majority from kits, I haven't found any kit that didn't produce an acceptable model. Now were they museum quality? nope, you can't get a museum quality model from a kit, no matter what you do. They are a dime a dozen and shelf queens. Now have I come across a few kits that needed a little changing to make it acceptable to me and the new owner? Yep, but few and far inbetween. To me, it's more the research of the subject that produces the best representation rather than the kit itself.    

 

Boat building can actually be a team hobby, 35-40% (and growing) of the models that I have built were actually orphaned kits or builds that were started by builders with good intentions but short of the follow through. Kind of like tag your it, then I finish what they started and make them all that they can be even to the point of rebuilding what they had done to make it acceptable. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by mtdoramike

[Larryboy]

I have only built models for myself and have never entered any contests nor do I think any of my models would ever make it to a museum, but I am very satisfied with the way they turn out. I really enjoy the building aspect of this hobby so unless something is really wrong with a model I'm okay with it. That said, I do want my SOFS to look good when finished. I'm glad that I have joined MSW because with the help that you fellow ship builders are willing to give I think I'll be successful.  At this time I'm just working on fitting the bulkheads to the keel. Thanks again guys. 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

On 4/26/2023 at 7:31 AM, mtdoramike said:

I maybe the only one to say, build it. You have it, start a build log first off and ask questions, post pictures of your progress. There are videos on Youtube regarding the building process of the SOS, which will help you tremendously. I also don 't agree with the need for scratch building or bashing of this kit in order to build a beautiful example of the SOS. Majority of kits will produce exceptable models without scratching or bashing unless your attempts are to make it your own.

 

Disclaimer: Take the above advice with a grain of salt because it comes from someone who hides in the wings, waiting for guys that bite off more than they can chew and later swoop in and adopt those orphaned kits that wide eyed first time builders attempt and then later drop like a hot rock. The SOS is one of the orphaned kits on my list to adopt. 

It is not necessary to scratch build to make a beautiful model.  No one said that.  It IS necessary to scratch build to build a historically ACCURATE model of HMS Sovereign of the Seas.

Edited April 30, 2023 by DARIVS ARCHITECTVS

[mtdoramike]

8 hours ago, DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:

It is not necessary to scratch build to make a beautiful model.  No one said that.  It IS necessary to scratch build to build a historically ACCURATE model of HMS Sovereign of the Seas.

I would lean more toward Scratch building to be museum quality versus historically accurate.They would not be cookie cutter produced models. Historical accuracy is always questionable.

[allanyed]

22 hours ago, mtdoramike said:

Historical accuracy is always questionable.

Hi Mike,

Never say never, (nor always) as the saying goes.😀  With contemporary drawings, contracts, scantlings, and models readily available to all, there is every chance to scratch build a fully accurate ship model, but that does not say a kit cannot be produced that would yield the same accuracy.  I think the issue for producing an accurate kit of SOS, or any other ship for that matter, is largely a cost versus benefit that comes into play and many items that may not be accurate are not known or noticed by the majority of the customers.    

Allan

Edited May 1, 2023 by allanyed

[md1400cs]

The issues with the SotS are that empirical data are not very informative, sketchy at best, and much of the ship's history have not been

well documented regarding how it actually looked throughout its long life no two artists have the same ideas - especially in comparison to, let's say, the Vasa of similar vintage (irrespective of its much later resurrection).  Though regarding Vasa accurate rigging requires some guessing according to Dr. Fred Hocker, whom I had the pleasure of spending an hour with at the Museum in 2018. He mentioned that for the running rigging of the 1/10th the English of the period were very helpful. Dutch information was/is sketchy at best during that period. And many nationals from other countries were hired during the build.

 

Many of us have seen stunning examples of the SotS in museum images and in scratch build logs. No two are the same in its infancy...  Given some "fog" that this ship owns, I for one have decided to add touches of artistic creative license to this current build. The Sergal, and the Deagostini being the only available kits from which to work also limit historically accurate work.

 

Regarding Deagostini I have read from a super accurate source who noted that the Deagostoni's images, from their listing, are NOT from their completed kit (stern) but, actually from a one-of scratch built project. Hmmm????

 

Build on - enjoy -  100% of my friends would have no idea of any errors of any kind... with the exception of my Admiral who seems to always find "something" that just doesn't look right. 🤣 😘 AND of course members here who so enjoy the intellectual and artistic foibles (accuracy) of this hobby. 

 

Regards,

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

8 hours ago, md1400cs said:

The issues with the SotS are that empirical data are not very informative, sketchy at best, and much of the ship's history have not been

well documented regarding how it actually looked throughout its long life no two artists have the same ideas - especially in comparison to, let's say, the Vasa of similar vintage (irrespective of its much later resurrection).  Though regarding Vasa accurate rigging requires some guessing according to Dr. Fred Hocker, whom I had the pleasure of spending an hour with at the Museum in 2018. He mentioned that for the running rigging of the 1/10th the English of the period were very helpful. Dutch information was/is sketchy at best during that period. And many nationals from other countries were hired during the build.

 

Many of us have seen stunning examples of the SotS in museum images and in scratch build logs. No two are the same in its infancy...  Given some "fog" that this ship owns, I for one have decided to add touches of artistic creative license to this current build. The Sergal, and the Deagostini being the only available kits from which to work also limit historically accurate work.

 

Regarding Deagostini I have read from a super accurate source who noted that the Deagostoni's images, from their listing, are NOT from their completed kit (stern) but, actually from a one-of scratch built project. Hmmm????

 

Build on - enjoy -  100% of my friends would have no idea of any errors of any kind... with the exception of my Admiral who seems to always find "something" that just doesn't look right. 🤣 😘 AND of course members here who so enjoy the intellectual and artistic foibles (accuracy) of this hobby. 

 

Regards,

 

As one who based a model on the DeAgostini kit, I can tell you for certain that the model used in the advertisements in not the one in the kit.  The model in the ads is an Italian made scratch built model.  The kit is based on that model, with several simplifications to make it easier to build for beginners, which is the target customer base for DeAgostini.  The instructions are certainly well made for beginners.  This has generated many accusations of false advertising which still ring out today.  However, the decorations and other features were changed from what we know the Sovereign featured.  The decorations were simplified into multiple stamped out copies spread across the hull in some cases.  Many of the decorations are well made, others a big disappointment.  The culverin carriages are the wrong type on the upper most decks of the fore and stern castles in that they should be half trucks, not full truck carriages. 

[allanyed]

In addition to the carriages, the gun patterns do not look right.  She would have carried Browne pattern barrels (circa 1625-1649) when launched.   Compare the Browne pattern below, which has the badge/cypher for that time period, with the kit guns.  Might be too late but I have STL drawings of the Browne Pattern in several sizes if you want them that can be sent to a 3D printer and be made in black or bronze colored resin at a really low cost.   2D drawing of one of the sizes is below as PNG and PDF

Allan

Culverin at 1 to 78 scale.PDF

 

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

On 5/1/2023 at 8:51 AM, allanyed said:

In addition to the carriages, the gun patterns do not look right.  She would have carried Browne pattern barrels (circa 1625-1649) when launched.   Compare the Browne pattern below, which has the badge/cypher for that time period, with the kit guns.  Might be too late but I have STL drawings of the Browne Pattern in several sizes if you want them that can be sent to a 3D printer and be made in black or bronze colored resin at a really low cost.   2D drawing of one of the sizes is below as PNG and PDF

Allan

Culverin at 1 to 78 scale.PDF 471.55 kB · 0 downloads

 

 

I am very interested in the STL files of the John Browne guns.

[allanyed]

I am, PMing them to you along with a 3D printer service that I have used in the past should you need one.

Allan

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

16 hours ago, allanyed said:

I am, PMing them to you along with a 3D printer service that I have used in the past should you need one.

Allan

 

Thank you, Allenyed for the great gun barrel .STL files!  I have yet to break open my new printer and learn how to use it. 

[Larryboy]

Thanks to everyone for the responses and advice. I have purchased an updated set of plans and instructions for the kit and I am surprised at how much my older kit does not have.  Maybe I got such a good deal on it because so much is missing. More than likely they have done a good job at improving the kit over the last 23 years. I will have to do a lot of scratch building though.  Oh well I think I am up for it. I'll start posting some pictures once I get going. 

[Larryboy]

Hi everyone, I have decided to put the Sovereign of the Seas away for now and make it a winter start up. In my last post I said how much is not in my kit compared to a new one but  all the laser cut sheets that are on the plans are included so I don't think I actually got a short kit it's just what they were producing at that time. With the new plan set that I got from Mantua UK I should be able to make a reasonable facsimile of the ship which will be good enough for me. Thanks for all the help and support and I will pick up on the build log when I get back into building this project. 

[anaxamander49]

I am dreadfully late with this reply but, perhaps, my comments will be of some worth.

 

I bought the SOTS kit about 8 years ago at a relatively lower price and, yes, it was from a modeler who decided not to build this ship. The moment I opened it, I knew I was also not going to build it. It wasn't accurate enough for me. The hull form is a mess. So, I've spent that last 8 or 9 years researching this ship, getting some terrific information from others at this site, and from the late Frank Fox, who was a naval historian expert in this era of shipbuilding. One or two folks told me that I should just try another ship. Why did I persist? Because it is fun (at least for me).

 

I think that's the point. You may or may not complete this model, and you may or may not set it down, only to pick it up a few years later. But, just have fun with the thing. Just beware that there is a lot of bad information out there about this ship. Darivs Architectvs has correctly pointed out that McKay's book contains a number of errors.  A book by James Sephton on this ship is also problematic. Both contain errors too numerous to list here, but check out the reviews of McKay's book on Amazon for a partial listing.

 

Also, you will want to have a decent representation of this ship. Most people use an engraving by John Payne, or a drawing by Willem van de Velde. Please don't. Neither is accurate. Instead, begin with a painting by the ship's builder, Peter Pett. You can see the painting here:

 

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/32448