HM Cutter Speedy 1828 by oakheart - from plans drawn by Bill Shoulders in 1972

[oakheart]

I also needed to make the waterway, the drawing shows a moulding but I went for a simple triangular section 1x1mm.

After cutting some 1x1mm square I made a simple sanding jig, the sides are at 45 degrees so that the section sits neatly  in place ready to have half of it width sanded away leaving a triangular section.

 

 

It gets very delicate, I managed to snap the first one I tried, then being much more gentle I managed to get two usable strips

 

Now to glue them in place

 

Tim

[oakheart]

Waterways fixed in place,

 

 

cleaned up and added some detail to the stern I need a couple of bits of moulding to cover the ragged edges.

 

 

next job could be lining then gun ports. 

As I no longer appear to be following Bills original here I am not going to add port lids, KISS

I think it will look better without them.

Question, can anyone tell me if there would have been scuppers on a cutter like this?

 

Tim

[iMustBeCrazy]

3 hours ago, oakheart said:

Question, can anyone tell me if there would have been scuppers on a cutter like this?

I can find only one picture showing what are probably scuppers, none of the drawings show them.

 

However there must have been some kind of deck drainage.

It is possible that the bulwark planking had a gap at deck level but Lapwing/Speedy drawings show waterways so that's ruled out, which leaves scuppers.

Given the waterline, I would guess aft of the pumps possibly between the gun ports as below (tiny green dots).

 

 

[oakheart]

41 minutes ago, iMustBeCrazy said:

there must have been some kind of deck drainage.

That's what I thought, I will not be messing with this model to show it.
But there would have been an awful lot of water sloshing about on deck without any kind of drain.

 

Tim

[Gregory]

FWIW Chuck did include scuppers on Cheerful;

 

Aft, as shown in the painting above ( if those are scuppers ) wouldn't make much sense.

If I remember correctly, from some of the Cheerful logs, some builders chose not to model them.

I have seen several contemporary models that did not show them either.

I think it was one of those things that didn't show up on contemporary line drawings because they were taken for granted.

[allanyed]

FWIW  contracts show the number of scuppers.  An example from the contract for the 16 gun sloop, Nautilus 1784 is below.

Allan

[oakheart]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

contracts show the number of scuppers

Thanks Allan @allanyed what an amazing amount of detail we can call on from that period.
Interesting that the oar ports had their own lids

 

Tim

[allanyed]

30 minutes ago, oakheart said:

Interesting that the oar ports had their own lids

They sometimes  had horseshoe shaped hinge plates and opened sideways versus vertically.  The first photo below is of a contemporary model of a fifth rate of 1689 at Preble Hall.  It is hard to tell but the second is a contemporary model of a 24 gun of 1745 from RMG and appears to have straight hinge plates, but they do open horizontally as well.

Allan

[oakheart]

Ok next question.

Just cut the rudder to shape but I can't find any reference on the drawings I have, to the rudder cross section or the cut away for the hinges ( name )?

@Thunder what did you do?
@allanyed are there any documents that give those dimensions?

 

thanks Tim

 

[Gregory]

There are some good references in the Cheerful logs.  I can't get to them right now,  but will dig up something later if you don't beat me to it...

[oakheart]

17 hours ago, Gregory said:

I think it was one of those things that didn't show up on contemporary line drawings because they were taken for granted.

That seems true of lots of things we build.

 

Tim

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, oakheart said:

are there any documents that give those dimensions?

Great question. Goodwin has drawings of the ports and hinges with dimensions on page 191.  I will try to post it when I get home.  From a contract.   

OAR PORTS                 To make and hang all such Oar Ports as shown on the Draft Disposition of the Frame or as shall be directed.

Allan

Edited January 24 by allanyed

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, oakheart said:

Ok next question.

Just cut the rudder to shape but I can't find any reference on the drawings I have, to the rudder cross section or the cut away for the hinges ( name )?

@Thunder what did you do?
@allanyed are there any documents that give those dimensions?

 

thanks Tim

 

 

Here is the rudder from G Barlow's Cheerful.   I think the cutouts for the " pintles " can be interpolated fairly easy.

 

 

Some lines from the NMM. 

[oakheart]

33 minutes ago, Gregory said:

I think the cutouts for the " pintles " can be interpolated fairly easy

Hi Gregory

Thanks for that, it will certainly be enough for me to make mine.

 

Oh dear I seem to have done it again, I was going to line the gun ports, now suddenly I making the rudder. Focus, focus, focus

now I am here I will complete the rudder, pintles and gudgeons.

 

Thanks for all the help, advice and likes

Tim

 

[iMustBeCrazy]

2 hours ago, oakheart said:

now suddenly I making the rudder

It all has to be done sometime and the brain needs a little vacation from time to time. Sometimes it needs a little ego boost (look what I did! type of thing).

 

The sternpost probably tapered (say 8 inches to 6 inches) and also the rudder (say 6 inches to 4 inches) and the rudder had a rounded leading edge (see shading on drawing).

Then again I might be wrong:

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/media/543/233/l0251.jpg

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/media/544/197/l0418_001.jpg

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/media/543/699/l0330_002.jpg

 

It seems the only tapering was from top to bottom. Add it to the list of things drawings don't show.

Edited January 24 by iMustBeCrazy

[iMustBeCrazy]

This one's interesting, Study of a rudder lying on the shore 1835.

[oakheart]

1 hour ago, iMustBeCrazy said:

Then again I might be wrong:

 

Wow : Thanks for all the research, the first one looks like it could be  an angled leading edge.

The drawing / painting looks more like a bevel than rounded.

I does look like a flat plank. 

As this is no longer a model of any real cutter, I may use artistic licence here.

Personally I quite like the angled look, so I may just go with that.

 

Tim

 

[allanyed]

5 hours ago, Gregory said:

are there any documents that give those dimensions?

Hi Gregory,

Regarding English ships, the only dimensions for the sweep ports that I can find are in Goodwin's The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War, (ISBN 0-87021-016-5,) page 191.  In his drawing the sweep port lid was 10 inches vertically by 12" horizontally and about 3" thick (the thickness of the planking?)  The horseshoe strap was 1.25" wide by 0.5" thick.   

 

He also has a dimensioned drawing of a ventilation scuttle, the use of which started about 1778.  These were fitted in every other gunport lid on the lower decks until 1789 when they were incorporated into every gun port lid on the lower decks.  One of those things not often seen on models.

 

Allan

[Thunder]

9 hours ago, oakheart said:

 

Wow : Thanks for all the research, the first one looks like it could be  an angled leading edge.

The drawing / painting looks more like a bevel than rounded.

I does look like a flat plank. 

As this is no longer a model of any real cutter, I may use artistic licence here.

Personally I quite like the angled look, so I may just go with that.

 

Tim

 

Hi Tim,

 

Mine had the leading edge angled for a third then the centre portion rounded if that makes sense. Rudder slightly tapers aft but only the lower, wider section. The top section is the same thickness through out. As shown, the rudder does not reach all the way down to the bottom of the keel, believe to try to prevent being unhinged if the ship touched the ground. 

 

sorry for slow reply.

 

Adrian

[oakheart]

1 hour ago, Thunder said:

Mine had the leading edge angled for a third then the centre portion rounded

Thanks Adrian @Thunder so very like the example that Craig @iMustBeCrazy showed us.

 

Tim

 

[oakheart]

Here is my first attempt at making a pintle.
I had some 0.8mm dia. copper wire which looks about the right size for the pin, amazingly when hammered flat it is also a good match for the straps.

When I have completed it I will black it with Liver of Sulphur as advised by Allen @allanyed

The parts are 'soft' soldered together with some good old lead based solder I have from years ago.

 

 

When I have decided on the final shape of the rudder I will remake it to suit the profile.

I am assuming the centre of the hinge should fall in the gap between the rudder and the sternpost?

This is fun.

 

Tim

[allanyed]

14 hours ago, oakheart said:

The drawing / painting looks more like a bevel than rounded.

Hi Tim,

A bit late now, but for the future, the forward edge of the completed rudder was not flat.  If it was flat, the rudder could no be turned very much, if at all.   There is a bearding piece on the forward edge of the rudder that was made of elm and had angles of 30 degrees from about 1650 to 1720.   It was changed to 45 degree angles about 1720 to allow a wider turning arc when the rudder was hard over.   There was a bearding piece on the after edge of the stern post with similar angles.  (Peter Goodwin, The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War, pp 129-30 ISBN 0-87021-016-5)  He also has a chart showing the dimensions.  Also, the rudder tapered, it was not the same thickness at the bottom as at the head.  The taper of the rudder  matches that of the stern post which can be found on the contemporary plans of Speedy 1828 at RMG Collections site.  It appears to taper from about 10 inches thick at the head down to about 6 to 7 inches at the keel.

Allan

 

Edited January 25 by allanyed

[druxey]

To illustrate Allan's point:

[oakheart]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

A bit late now

Never too late Allan

 

 

I have reshaped the leading edge of the rudder, not sure if the pintles work that shape?

 

 

 

still work to do on cleaning up and detailing, but it begins to look better thanks to the advice from @allanyed @iMustBeCrazy @druxey @Thunder

[Gregory]

That looks pretty good to me!

 

One small quibble.

 

Those pintle pins should not stand proud of the leading edge of the rudder .

.

Edited January 25 by Gregory

[oakheart]

41 minutes ago, Gregory said:

Those pintle pins should not stand proud of the leading edge of the rudder

Thanks Gregory @Gregory I really was not sure about the position. I will adjust the position.

 

Tim

[Gregory]

The idea is for the rudder to fit almost flush against the stern post..

[oakheart]

Here is the rudder just balanced in place, now I can see how much I need to move the pintle.

 

 

these photos do show warts and all, don't they

 

Tim

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25 by oakheart

[Gregory]

Just moving the pin into the cut-out should do it.

See druxey's image above. 

[allanyed]

4 hours ago, oakheart said:

not sure if the pintles work that shape?

The rudder looks great!   The below is from The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War, by Goodwin.   I am sure there were a few variations but this gives the idea on their shape.

Allan