Which one is the best ropewalk machine?

[modeller_masa]

Before I ask a question, I would like to show my previous studies on rope making.

 

This is a conventional ropewalk machine for model work. This setting uses 1 yarn to build 1 strand. Also, 1 rope has 3 strands. I'll say it is a 1x3 setting.

 

This is a 2x3 setting. It uses 2 yarns to build 1 strand.

 

In the same story, this is a 4x3 setting.

 

This is a 4x4 setting.

 

Ok, let's check real ropewalk machine.

 

(Source : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bquft1_ezIs )

 

I counted the holes. The machine uses 120 yarns to build 1 strands. The final rope is 4 stranded. In the same story, I'll say this is a 120 x 4 setting.

 

 

To build the real rope, I unravelled a factory thread and re-ropewalked. The result is better than the others.

 

However, I found that I couldn't compress the yarns anymore. I need the exact same machine that a real rope factory uses.

 

In other words, I need to extract each yarn from a factory thread, and

 

 

I also need a micro-sized ropewalk with 120 holes for the hair-thin yarns.

 

It's a dead end of my study. I may need to change a mechanism. Is there a better ropewalk machine for model work? I'm using the Domanoff's VR ropewalk.

 

Also, I'm looking for the synthetic polyester yarns (fiber). Extracting it from thread is time and labor consuming work.

Edited February 2 by modeller_masa

[Jaager]

Just to kabitz about personal philosophy:

 

Since you are not using linen,  I think that any starting material that you can source will be a thread.

The prototype rope was turned up using a single thread  for each of the 3 or 4 lines being twisted

At scale, using more than one will not produce something that looks like scale rope.  It will be twine - sorta ugly.

 

Over a short range, a variety of diameters can be had by using thicker starting thread.

Linen comes as  (picking a number to make it easier to write - I have 10 Lea to 62 Lea so I could pick any number.)   40   and 40/2 .   The 40 is one 40 Lea yarn.  The 40/2 is two 40 Lea yarns twisted together.  The twist is tight enough to make it look like a single line.

Your photo #2  pair would need to be twist into a single before it is strung like that.

Your photo #3  trios  would need to be actual 3 strand scale rope before you strung it.

Your photo #4 quartets would need to be 4 strand scale rope as starting material .

 

The twist of the starting material determines the rotation for the rope being made.  Use the wrong rotation and the starting material unravels.

 

I have no suggestion for a machine.  I wanted a mile long stock, so I bought a Byrnes rope walk.  I have not (well back when I was practicing) figured out the correct angles to get the scale twist of an actual rope.  It also generates forces that break the linen yarns that are really fine - usually where a stem inclusion gets past the comb during its twist up.  The Baltic stuff is even less well combed.

 

Anything synthetic is against my personal rules, but my rules are only for me.

[modeller_masa]

Thanks for your kind advice, Jaager.

 

I agree that the 2x3 method doesn't look good. Also, 1x3 isn't good with 3 stranded polyester thread, too. (The numbers are Ticket No.)

 

I dulled the sharp edge by adding more yarn. (2x3 → 16x3)

 

Lea or NeL is 300 yards per 1 lb of linen yarn. I converted it to tex size (40 lea = 66.14 tex) Also, linen can't produce infinite length fiber. It is a reason I stick to 7 tex polyester yarn.

 

I didn't know how I should prepare specific ropes before I run 2x3, 4x3, and 4x4 progresses. I'll study them.

 

45' Angle - I got the hint from Youtube video. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toyOKOi0DsM )

 

 

I also want to try the natural fibers. Synthetic fiber has better physical specs, so I'm testing and learning about any kind of rope. The DMC cordonet special never could stand my experiment. There will be a time I try linen with a softer setting.

 

By the way, I failed to adjust Domanoff PL4 - it's too delicate and can't use the 420 (Tex 7) polythread.

Edited February 2 by modeller_masa

[Dziadeczek]

For the modeling purposes, you do not need such a complicated machine, like this one on your pics. Unless you intend to go industrial, a simple ropewalk based on three (or four) hooked spindles, manually powered or by a small DC motor, will suffice. It doesn't matter, whether your device has two spinning ends (like, for instance, the Frolich's design) or just one, the end result will be similar. I remember someone complained, that the co called, continuous ropewalk tends to give some problems with tensioning individual threads and the results are more unpredictable. 

I have this simple ropewalk I made many years ago and it still goes strong and is foolproof. (post # 20)

 

I think that the quality of your rope will depend more on the quality of thread you use. Cotton threads, like the French DMC (now defunct), or German Anchor, or even Lizbeth (I had good experience with the last one), will result in good looking rope. Choose appropriate thickness and color of your thread, so that you don't need to tint your rope afterwards. After you obtain your rope, you need to stretch it, because cotton will be a little "rubbery", elastic.

If you use Lizbeth thread, it already comes factory pre singed, with the "fuzz" burnt out. And it is Egyptian cotton - the best!

 

If you use polyester threads, be careful, because those ropes tend to spontaneously unravel after you cut the ends.

 

In any case, this topic was already asked here numerous times, so check out the archives for the best design of your ropewalk.

 

BTW, what's wrong with your Domanoff's ropewalk, anyway?   Just curious...

Edited February 2 by Dziadeczek

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  I'm using the Syren Rope Rocket (assy. reqd.) using Metrosine poly sewing thread: 3 single strands yield .010 scale rope (1" for 1:100), 2 threads per strands yield .020 (2" rope at 1:100) and 3 threads per strand yield .030.  Ploy rope is tempered for 7 min. on a cookie sheet in a 350 degree oven, then it won't self-ravel.  There are some 'fuzzies' (as some of your photos show), and I found they can be singed-off by quickly passing lengths of the scale rope over an alcohol flame.  Pausing over the flame will part the rope, so deftness is needed.  The photo below shows fuzzy rope on the left, and singed rope (now mostly smooth) on the right.  Close-up photos tend to show more of the 'fuzzys', so why not get rid of them.  Will likely work on natural fibers as well.

 

[modeller_masa]

Thanks for your advice, Dziadeczek. 

 

The one who claimed some issues regarding Domanoff's continuous ropewalk should be me.  

 

While thin linen thread has 40 lea = 70 tex = 40 Ticket No., according to the Amann Serafil's polyester thread series, I'm practicing with 420 ticket no. (=7 tex) Serafil thread for building the thinnest rope. The 7 tex poly thread is three times thinner than linen thread.

 

Domanoff PL4 really works well with 10~40 ticket no. or 270~70 tex thread. When I go to thinner threads, such as 120~420 ticket no or 24~7 tex thread, too strong tension breaks the string. On the contrary, Syren' Rope Rocket structure machine can build every kind of rope. It is a reason I abandoned PL4 and use the Domanoff's VR ropewalk, which is a micro sized Rope Rocket. 

 

I've experienced that threads are really different by materials. It may be time to investigate various natural thread. Thanks for the recommandations. I'll try them as soon as possible.

[modeller_masa]

Hello, Snug Harbor Johnny.

 

I'm glad someone else uses the Syren's awesome machine. It is a really good choice to learn rope making. I moved to Domanoff's VR ropewalk because of the noise and handling. Here is my modification of the VR ropewalk.

 

The Domanoff's VR ropewalk has a very weak stand, so I replaced it with 3D printed stand. I added the other things on my needs. I'm really satisfied with my modification.

 

If you want zero-fuzzy polyester thread, I recommend Amann's serafil or leather work threads made in German. Their applications are leather wallet or shoes. 

 

I tried the heat method yesterday and found that my oven is broken! 😂 I use liquid shellac and dip thread in a dish.

[Jaager]

2 hours ago, modeller_masa said:

linen can't produce infinite length fiber.

The max length of a single fiber is the length of the stem of the flax plant that it came from. 

For cotton, it is much much shorter.  But a cotton fiber is much much thinner than a flax fiber.  It is so much smaller than the combed flax fibers - that after being twisted into yarn and then the yarn twisted into thread - is still finer than linen yarn.  Well most of what we can find now is.  But cotton does not usually last a human lifetime.  For its job of protecting a seed, it does not need to last all that long.

 

About some of the other natural fibers could be investigated:

I do not know what the negative factors are with wool.  It is never mentioned as far as I can remember.  It is maybe more labile?  Maybe too thick?  Is it kinked, or spiral? 

Silk is short lived.  Even a hint of chlorine will disintegrate the beta sheet structure.   Thinking of it -  the cocoon that is its job only needs to last for a short time and it does not need to hold anything up.  It mostly needs lateral strength as a shield - not longitudinal strength.  The beta sheet has more lateral flex than an alpha helix?

If I remember correctly - both wool and silk are proteins?  Animals do not synthesize cellulose?  Animals polymerize proteins and plants polymerize sugars?

 

Hemp - I have never encountered hemp yarn.  I suspect that the fibers could be 6-8 times longer than flax fibers.  The plants are about that much different in height.  Getting the fibers isolated, oriented, and processed may be more work than it is worth.  I wonder if its lignin is more resistant to being fermented, or rotted than the lignin glue in flax?

 

Edited February 3 by Jaager

[Gregory]

Which one is the best ropewalk machine?

 

The one that makes miniature rope that looks like a scaled down version of the real thing.

 

 

Some rope I made.

Here are the components of my first rope maker.  What I am using now is not very different in form or function.

 

Some results..

 

I don't make anything longer than 4 - 5 feet , but it suits my needs. 

 

Edit:

 

My ropewalk uses the principles of the one described by Phil Krol  found here..  Mine is not quite as elaborate.

 

https://modelshipworld.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=537569

Edited February 3 by Gregory

[Bob Cleek]

I have a Dominoff PL4 which I have to admit I've only fiddled with a bit so far. Necessity will be the mother of invention and I'll get to it when I have to, I suppose. I am curious about a couple of things. The only (potential and perhaps unjustified) complaints that I have so far with the Dominoff PL4 is the lack of documentation regarding operation, which I hope will be negated by experience when I get more of it and the size of the take-up spool. The machine will make rope "continuously," limited by the capacity of the standard sewing machine bobbins, but the wooden take-up spool doesn't appear to have anything near a capacity to hold what I'm expecting to be the amount of rope that can be made from the capacity of the bobbins (which will vary to some extent by the size of the thread loaded on the bobbins.) I wonder if anyone has addressed the take-up spool issue with a workable solution. I expect I'll turn a few extra take-up spools with smaller center cores eventually and that may be the trick, but I haven't gotten around to that either.  

 

When making four-strand rope, the Dominoff machines have a fifth central "tube" which allows (from a stationary fifth bobbin on the PL4) which provides a central core strand of proportionately smaller size around which the four main strands are twisted. Its purpose is to prevent the four main strands from "collapsing" and turning into what one person described as "square" rope. The other four-strand machines I've seen don't appear to provide for a central core strand when making four-strand rope. I'm curious as to whether this central core strand really makes a big difference. 

[modeller_masa]

It is interesting that animal oriented thread has relatively short life time. It may mean Vegan is the best.

 

Hemp and Asian linen - I researched them long ago because they are common here. Unfortunately, they are too thick for model ship.

 

Probably the linen is a good start to research natural fiber.
 

 

 

Hello, Gregory.

It is a good subject for thought. - Is realistic thread better for a scaled model?

 

The first rope is not realistic and looks bulky. However, its sharper edge and high detailed texture appeal to the public who don't have deep knowledge.

 

The third rope is more realistic. However, many people won't notice a significant difference between the second and third ropes. 

 

I sometimes paint scaled models in different colors. For example, I paint 1/700 ships a little brighter. I think I should use difference-size ropes when the color is darker - Scaled black rope looks smaller than white rope, although they have same thickness.

 

Sometimes cheating eyes may result in a better scaled effect.

 

 

And thank you for sharing the great lecture document. I already found some new ideas to improve my machine in the text.

Edited February 3 by modeller_masa

[modeller_masa]

12 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

the size of the take-up spool.

Yeah. It makes non-sense that the "continuous" machine can only work with larger size thread only, and offers only tiny bobbins to load.

 

Thicker thread → The PL4 loads only limited amount, such as 10 meters or 30 feet. → Works well, but Rope rocket is also able to handle same amount of thicker thread at once.

Thinner thread → The PL4 loads more than 100 meters or 400 feet. → Doesn't work. Rope rocket also works well with the thinner threads, but the capacity is limited.

 

I can't help a topic about cored threads. I didn't try it because my biggest issue was making thinner rope.

 

By the way, I don't know why I didn't see Bob Cleek's post a few hours ago....

----

 

 

I'm sorry that I misunderstood the word take up bobbin.

 

I modified or extended the PL4 machine to overcome my issue. I replaced the take up bobbin and related drive systems. There is a red LED digit in the center of the machine. The digit shows speed of the take up spool.

 

Unfortunately, the modified machine is in my rooftop attic because I couldn't get a satisfying result from the machine. 

Edited February 3 by modeller_masa

[Gregory]

12 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

I'm curious as to whether this central core strand really makes a big difference. 

I make up to four strands, with the option for a central core that I never use.

I don't have a problem with my rope not being round.

 

I have heard of, but not tried so far, the idea of using small wire as a core to make rope that could hold it's shape, like for better looking foot ropes.

[Gregory]

10 hours ago, modeller_masa said:

It is a good subject for thought. - Is realistic thread better for a scaled model?

I know you are still in the experimental stage, and not concerned with color right now. but so far, your rope lacks something, and I wonder if it is a shortcoming of the Domanoff design.

The layup is not very tight, and lacks the look of rope.

 

 

Actual rope.

 

 

Compare :

 

To:

This from Ropes of Scale.    Notice how you can see the individual threads and strands.  I believe they use the Rope-Rocket.

 

Here is some of the smallest rope I have made.  The individual threads are not as obvious.

 

I believe it is 3 strands of two threads,  Gutermann polyester MARA 120.  I use a simplified  Frolic style mechanism ..

I could share more details if you are interested.

 

I'm curious as to your goal in your  "  studies on rope making " ?

[modeller_masa]

My long term mission is to build 1/200 HMS Victory with full details, like Lloyd McCaffery did. ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/0851774857/ ) It'll be a distant future 20 years later.

My current goal is to build 1/48~1/72 common kits, such as galleons and ship of the line. Also, some 1/96~1/150 plastic kits are awaiting.
To complete my current project, US Revenue Cutter 1/72, I use self-made ropes for every rigging, including 3/4" circumference rope for ensign staff and seizing.

The smallest rope I can build is a 3-stranded rope with Amann Serafil Ticket No. 420 (or Tex 7). The three stranded rope has tex 21 (or ticket no.150), and real nominal diameter is 0.15mm or 0.006". I think it is fine because most ropes are 3" to 12" circumference, which are 0.50mm or 0.021" to 2.00mm or 0.083" nominal diameter at 1/72 scale.

 

--------------

 

I studied about real rope and concluded that commercial model ropes are over-twisted.

 

These are some samples of real ropes.

 

 

 

3 Stranded Z lay - Single yarn per strand S lay - Jute fiber

 

 

4 Stranded Z lay - 2 yarns per strand S lay 

 

 

3 Stranded Z lay - 10 yarns per strand S lay

 

 

4 Stranded Z lay - 120 yarns with core per strand S lay - fiber Z lay

 

 

3 Stranded Z lay - 6 yarns per strand S lay

 

 

4 Stranded Z lay - 4 yarns per strands S lay - hemp fiber Z lay

 

 

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-hemp-rope-rigging-hms-victory-portsmouth-historic-dockyard-england-31648539.html

 

HMS Victory - White hemp rope

3 Stranded Z lay - Many yarns per strand S lay

 

 

Here are model ropes.

 

Amati 2.50mm rope Art.4125/25

3 Stranded Z lay - 10 Yarns per strand S lay - 3 yarns per yarn Z lay - Linen fiber S lay

 

 

I can't find my Syren rope that I purchased with Rope Rocket.

 

(Source : https://modelshipworld.com/topic/32140-rope-and-rigging-blocks-various-sizes-syren-model-ship-company/

 

3 stranded Z lay - 3 yarns per strand S lay

( source : https://ropesofscale.com/products/polyester-tan-cable-laid-rope )

Rope of Scale - Polyester Tan - Cable-laid rope

3 Roped S lay - 3 Stranded Z lay - ?

 

 

------------------

 

 

I think the key difference between model and real ropes is the yarn on each strand.

 

For example, Rope of Scale uses only 3 yarns on each strand. As a result, the texture of yarn is exaggerated.

Also, the maker probably overtwisted the yarns so that the green lines aren't parallel to rope.

 

On the contrary, HMS Victory's huge hemp rope uses 100 yarns on each strand.

Also, the angle of the green lines is parallel to the rope. It means that yarns and strands are made 45' angle. The RoS rope wasn't because it was twisted strongly.

 

You can find more examples with the search term "HMS Victory hammock netting."

It looks like the hammock netting is made of 3 stranded rope with 6 yarns on each strand.

Syren's rope shows an adequate angle that the green lines are almost parallel to the rope's direction.

But, the yarns are so thick that they have an aggressive texture.

 

I would say that Amati did pretty well. Although my first impression wasn't good because of its "flat texture," I think it is more realistic rope than RoS's sample picture.

 

I don't know which rope is correct or wrong. I like the style of RoS, and Syren Rope Rocket's instruction also guided me to do that. I'm curious why commercial model ropes are different from the original ropes on real ships.

Edited February 4 by modeller_masa

[modeller_masa]

I'm sorry that the example of RoS was cable-laid, which is composed of 3 ropes.

 

https://ropesofscale.com/products/polyester-light-beige-rope

This is a proper example product to compare with other ropes.

 

1.8mm Polyester Light Beige Rope

3 Stranded Z lay - countless yarns per strand

[Bob Cleek]

10 hours ago, modeller_masa said:

My long term mission is to build 1/200 HMS Victory with full details, like Lloyd McCaffery did. ( https://www.amazon.com/dp/0851774857/ ) It'll be a distant future 20 years later.

From McCaffery's miniature models I've seen "in person" in a museum and his book, I believe he uses very fine twisted wire for his standing and running rigging on his famous miniature models rather than fiber rope and you'd have to use a magnifying glass to tell the difference between his wire rigging and any fiber rigging. His book really doesn't do justice to the amazing detail at incredibly small size that he is able to accomplish with his miniatures. It's difficult to fully appreciate his accomplishments until you can see them "in the flesh." The difficulty of such fine work (and his aging eyes) may explain why he's apparently abandoned his ultra small-scale ship modeling and seems to have redirected his attention to building highly detailed 1:48 scale ship models, and carving miniature figureheads, merry-go-round horses, and dinosaur skeletons instead, although they are also so amazing as to be almost beyond belief!  He's also built an amazing 1:48 scale model of HMY Royal Caroline that is detailed down to the level of his miniature models, and it is truly breath-taking. He used fine silk rope on that model.

 

One can spend some very enjoyable time reading the website and links provided by his sales gallery from which the photos below were taken. See: Lloyd McCaffery — J. Russell Jinishian Gallery (jrusselljinishiangallery.com)

 

1:48 rigging detail on HMY Royal Caroline:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4 by Bob Cleek

[dvm27]

Thanks for the link to Lloyd's latest model. I note that all of the rigging is done in silk. In my opinion it lays beautifully with a natural catenary. Several members of this forum have disparaged its use due to potential deterioration and biologic degradation. I find it hard to believe Lloyd would use a material in his model that might disintegrate in the near future. As well, there are many contemporary models (and flags) in the Rogers collection in Annapolis with their original silk rigs and examples of silk garments from hundreds of years ago from the far east. So, my question is has anyone here actually used silk in making their rope? If not, is there really a concern that it will disintegrate in 50 or 100 years? Can we reasonably expect any rig, whether linen, polyester or other to survive a century without needing repairs or rerigging?

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:55 AM, modeller_masa said:

Yeah. It makes non-sense that the "continuous" machine can only work with larger size thread only, and offers only tiny bobbins to load.

 

Thicker thread → The PL4 loads only limited amount, such as 10 meters or 30 feet. → Works well, but Rope rocket is also able to handle same amount of thicker thread at once.

Thinner thread → The PL4 loads more than 100 meters or 400 feet. → Doesn't work. Rope rocket also works well with the thinner threads, but the capacity is limited.

 

I can't help a topic about cored threads. I didn't try it because my biggest issue was making thinner rope.

 

By the way, I don't know why I didn't see Bob Cleek's post a few hours ago....

----

 

 

I'm sorry that I misunderstood the word take up bobbin.

 

I modified or extended the PL4 machine to overcome my issue. I replaced the take up bobbin and related drive systems. There is a red LED digit in the center of the machine. The digit shows speed of the take up spool.

 

Unfortunately, the modified machine is in my rooftop attic because I couldn't get a satisfying result from the machine. 

   Looking at this rig, what the problem might be is that the planetary gears that turn the spools don't twist enough in relation to the revolutions of the large disc laying the strands on the other side (not quite sure what the exact ratio needs to be).   

[BenD]

6 hours ago, modeller_masa said:

I'm sorry that the example of RoS was cable-laid, which is composed of 3 ropes.

People get confused about cable-laid ropes quite a lot. 

 

That 3.8mm cable-laid is three 1.8mm ropes laid together. Each 1.8mm rope has 39 yarns, which means the cable has 117 yarns. 

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

   Looking at this rig, what the problem might be is that the planetary gears that turn the spools don't twist enough in relation to the revolutions of the large disc laying the strands on the other side (not quite sure what the exact ratio needs to be).   

I mentioned earlier that there is apparently something lacking in the tightness of the lay .

 

The Rope Rocket and the Frolic style rope makers twist the strands hundreds if not thousands of times to create the tension that causes the rope to form.

The Domanoff machine doesn't appear to be twisting the strands more than a few tens of revolutions.   Perhaps someone with more knowledge could give a more precise number.

[modeller_masa]

7 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

the planetary gears that turn the spools don't twist enough

The spool should have an appropriate tensioner. 

 

Adding thread tension units to spools is on my bucket list, but the order of priority of modification for the PL4 isn't high for now.