My newest Challenge

[James Flynn]

No, it doesn't half to be this ship I just really liked all the detail in the plans I'm wanting to build a large model as complete and as exact as posable that I can open up and show the Compleat inside of with its cargo not just a section. My plan was one side with no planking and the other complete and then I planned to make some of the canon remotely push out and fire but mainly I want a large ship and a decent challenge. From reading all your posts I think maybe you all have run me off this build I may need to rethink my choice of planes again. I thank all of you for all your advice I will repost when I chose a new set of plans. I'm disabled and live on a fixed income the Montebello was a free set of plans may take me a bit to be able to get another set.

[James Flynn]

On 10/16/2024 at 3:47 PM, KLarsen said:

@James Flynn does it have to be that exact ship of would you consider building another similar one? Ancre has several top quality monographs (fully detailed plans and descriptions of construction) of similar French ships of the line. You could consider buying one of those so you don't need to do any lofting and a lot less research.

Those look cool but a little out of my price range  

[wefalck]

I think this is a wise decision, avoiding frustration and an abandoned project. If you google for 'Atlas du Genie Maritime', you will actually find hundreds of free(!) plans from the French archives of ships large and small, complex and simple. I can't point you right now to a contents list. Unfortunately, due to being hacked, the French naval archives have taken all their digitised plans off the Web a few years ago. However, if you find something that interests you, send me the link you found to the small plans and I can send you the full-size plan, that I had downloaded before the archive went off the air.

 

Another source of free plans is the Maritime Museum in Greenwich (UK): https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections

 

A third source are archives of the former Danish Naval Yard in Copenhagen (Denmark) - great resource, but time-consuming to navigate on the Web: https://arkivalieronline.rigsarkivet.dk/da/other/index-creator/40/3353816/17149179

 

Keep in mind that these are copies of original ships plans and are not processed/redrawn for model building.

[James Flynn]

Anyone know where I can get a set of build plans to the Uss Pennsylvania?  

[James Flynn]

10 minutes ago, wefalck said:

I think this is a wise decision, avoiding frustration and an abandoned project. If you google for 'Atlas du Genie Maritime', you will actually find hundreds of free(!) plans from the French archives of ships large and small, complex and simple. I can't point you right now to a contents list. Unfortunately, due to being hacked, the French naval archives have taken all their digitised plans off the Web a few years ago. However, if you find something that interests you, send me the link you found to the small plans and I can send you the full-size plan, that I had downloaded before the archive went off the air.

 

Another source of free plans is the Maritime Museum in Greenwich (UK): https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections

 

A third source are archives of the former Danish Naval Yard in Copenhagen (Denmark) - great resource, but time-consuming to navigate on the Web: https://arkivalieronline.rigsarkivet.dk/da/other/index-creator/40/3353816/17149179

 

Keep in mind that these are copies of original ships plans and are not processed/redrawn for model building.

Would you by chance have the Uss Pennsylvania build plans ?

[wefalck]

You don't do it small, don't you? You mean the one of 1837? No, I don't have any plans. The Smithonian Institution in Washington would be a source, but others here may be better informed about USN ships.

 

[James Flynn]

19 minutes ago, wefalck said:

You don't do it small, don't you? You mean the one of 1837? No, I don't have any plans. The Smithonian Institution in Washington would be a source, but others here may be better informed about USN ships.

 

Would you have a good recommendation of a good English or French ship

[JacquesCousteau]

I think that what people are trying to suggest is that it's not so much the plans, as it is the sheer scope of the very ambitious project you're proposing to take on. I could be wrong, but I don't think you're going to find a plan set that includes detailed diagrams of all the parts of a major warship like you're interested in, unless you buy something like an Ancre monograph. Others who are more knowledgeable about this can correct me if I'm wrong, but historically, plans sent to the dockyard for construction did not include such details, and the frames needed to be lofted--that is, diagrammed out--individually based on the stations on the plans. So, to make what you're proposing, you'll need to figure out lofting, unless you get a monograph with everything already diagrammed out. Once you do that, which is itself a huge undertaking, you'd be able to start cutting wood, but getting everything precisely lined up and set is a huge project. You can see this if you browse some of the build logs on this site (search "POF" and you should find some).

 

A fully framed model of a major ship of the line is a project that can very easily take a decade, will inevitably have frustrating setbacks, and has a lot of tedious parts as well (like making several hundred tiny block-and-tackle setups for the cannons). This will be the case even if you opt for a simplified, stylized framing structure. People are suggesting that you start smaller not because they want to discourage you from the hobby, but because they want to see you succeed, and the best way to do that is to not start by trying to do a complete first-rate ship of the line. Would a smaller warship at all interest you?

[JacquesCousteau]

You mentioned that you want a challenging build, but it's worth noting that even a smaller vessel, built with care, is still a huge challenge. Here, for instance, is a fascinating build of a fishing schooner at about the level of detail you're proposing. The builder had to loft the frames from the plans. As can be seen, it took about three years.

 

[James Flynn]

5 minutes ago, JacquesCousteau said:

I think that what people are trying to suggest is that it's not so much the plans, as it is the sheer scope of the very ambitious project you're proposing to take on. I could be wrong, but I don't think you're going to find a plan set that includes detailed diagrams of all the parts of a major warship like you're interested in, unless you buy something like an Ancre monograph. Others who are more knowledgeable about this can correct me if I'm wrong, but historically, plans sent to the dockyard for construction did not include such details, and the frames needed to be lofted--that is, diagrammed out--individually based on the stations on the plans. So, to make what you're proposing, you'll need to figure out lofting, unless you get a monograph with everything already diagrammed out. Once you do that, which is itself a huge undertaking, you'd be able to start cutting wood, but getting everything precisely lined up and set is a huge project. You can see this if you browse some of the build logs on this site (search "POF" and you should find some).

 

A fully framed model of a major ship of the line is a project that can very easily take a decade, will inevitably have frustrating setbacks, and has a lot of tedious parts as well (like making several hundred tiny block-and-tackle setups for the cannons). This will be the case even if you opt for a simplified, stylized framing structure. People are suggesting that you start smaller not because they want to discourage you from the hobby, but because they want to see you succeed, and the best way to do that is to not start by trying to do a complete first-rate ship of the line. Would a smaller warship at all interest you?

Ok I think I'm understanding what you all are warning me of I agree it is a big project and yes, I would be interested in starting with a simpler ship I just want it to be a big ship in size like 4 or 5 feet long maybe I can back off the triple decker, but I want a challenge something I can spend time building and something with detail I have no problem having to build hundreds of something infect that kind of  what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for something I can just slap together in a month or two I want a scratch build I can be proud of   

[GrandpaPhil]

Check out the HMS Triton group build on this forum.  The plans are $5 from the NRG and can be built as POF, POB or a cross section.  Everything is pre-lofted and the Triton is a frigate from the 1770’s.

 

The HMS Winchelsea is another excellent project that is the subject of a group build on this forum.  The plans are $15 from the NRG and it is designed as a POB build.  The Winchelsea is a frigate from 1764.

[JacquesCousteau]

24 minutes ago, James Flynn said:

Ok I think I'm understanding what you all are warning me of I agree it is a big project and yes, I would be interested in starting with a simpler ship I just want it to be a big ship in size like 4 or 5 feet long maybe I can back off the triple decker, but I want a challenge something I can spend time building and something with detail I have no problem having to build hundreds of something infect that kind of  what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for something I can just slap together in a month or two I want a scratch build I can be proud of   

I'm sure you'll be able to build something you're proud of. The size of the finished model depends more on the scale you choose to build in than the size of the original. You can make a 1-inch-long model of a oil tanker, or a 5-foot-long model of a rowboat, depending on the scale you choose. If you're interested in a warship with guns, maybe a cutter, lugger, or gunboat in a pretty large scale would be a good option. Here, for example, are some plans of a British cutter from 1778, including deck and interior plans:

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:HMS_Sprightly_(ship,_1778)

 

[Desertanimal]

Could you post some photos and more info on your other builds? That might help bring the two sides (not to say any of us are on opposing sides, but you get what I mean I hope) closer together. None of us know your modeling abilities and to encourage a beginner to take on a task such as you’re presenting would be a very dangerous line to walk. 
We’re all about succeeding and sometimes that means small, obtainable goals. Most people are easily discouraged after starting a huge project.  A lot enjoy the prep. Buying tools, setting up a workspace, reading the documentation etc.  Once the drudgery starts it’s the beginning of the end. 
Not saying you are like that, sounds like you’ve made some big boats! 
With none of us knowing you or your abilities you can see why we’d “discourage” someone taking on a task with a huge possibility of not getting finished that will become a monster your children have to deal with when you’re gone. 
I hope you find a suitable build and keep us updated!!

 Chris

[wefalck]

I think @JacquesCousteau framed very well our sentiments in that respect.

 

I have something like 45 years of scratch-building under my belt and a pretty well kitted out (mechanical) workshop, but I am slow builder. While I think a project, such as yours would be a great ambitions, considering that I spent already 18 years on a modest 1870s gun-boat and that I am approaching fast 70 years of age, I made a life-decision and that is to go for small ships that I can complete within a reasonable time-frame. I decided to put a lot of details in something smallish, rather than to build something big, where I would be confounded just by the number of repetitive details that I would have to make. OK, this is my personal philosophy as model builder.

 

Before tackling a project as you envisaged, it would be also good think about what kind of workshop space you have, what your workshop kit looks like and what investments may be needed to bring it up to a suitable level. The next tough question is also that of the skill and true patience level. Personally, I don't like the concept of 'beginner's'  models. That's something invented by the kit industry. I you are an accomplished artisan or have built other types of models from scratch, there is no reaons why you shouldn't tackle even an ambitious ship successfully. Of course, if you have to learn the necessary woodworking and metalworking skills first, the situation may be different. One can learn everything, provided one has the necessary patience. I personally think, that people do not fail because they have to left thumbs, but because they do not have the patience to use the rest of their hands.

 

I think you are trying to pack to many ambitions into one model. Yes, everyone of us wants to build the life-time model, but there may be so many practical problems that this easily can end up in a life-time frustration. Break down your ambition into several smaller ones. Build a smaller-scale model of one of those mid-19th century wooden anachronisms, build an individual gun station with all the details, even remotely controlled functions, etc. and you will have a reasonable chance to be proud of it ...

 

[James Flynn]

I have a large well kitted workshop I have table saws band saws scroll saws grinders, sanders, dreamless. I'm verry prepared to go to work on a challenging build but you all are correct about my ambition being beyond my skill level I have been building scratch built speed boats and large sail boats for about 10 years all of which I made remote control and took to the water and raced within a boat club I use to member with that has cense closed down. working with wood is and has been a passion all my life I have spent years on a single project so many times I can't count I usually have 3 or 4 going at a time. I am disabled so I have a lot of time on my hands to spend on my projects. I do spend a lot of time in my Bible but when I'm not in study I'm crafting something.

   

[James Flynn]

I built this a few years back the chains have broken from moving and the sails and rigging I have in storage until I can finish the wall, I plan to place it on  

[James Flynn]

2 hours ago, GrandpaPhil said:

Check out the HMS Triton group build on this forum.  The plans are $5 from the NRG and can be built as POF, POB or a cross section.  Everything is pre-lofted and the Triton is a frigate from the 1770’s.

 

The HMS Winchelsea is another excellent project that is the subject of a group build on this forum.  The plans are $15 from the NRG and it is designed as a POB build.  The Winchelsea is a frigate from 1764.

What is NRG  

[Jim Lad]

Nautical Research Guild.

 

[James Flynn]

2 hours ago, GrandpaPhil said:

Check out the HMS Triton group build on this forum.  The plans are $5 from the NRG and can be built as POF, POB or a cross section.  Everything is pre-lofted and the Triton is a frigate from the 1770’s.

 

The HMS Winchelsea is another excellent project that is the subject of a group build on this forum.  The plans are $15 from the NRG and it is designed as a POB build.  The Winchelsea is a frigate from 1764.

I took a look at the Winchelsea and the triton both in the group builds and I found the NRG plans and they look great but just to small truthfully, I want to build something a little bigger I can see stepping down from the 1st rate but I don't think I would want to go les then a 3rd rate and after looking over everything I truly want to build a POF I can spend a few dollars on a good set of plans just need to keep things reasonable 

[JacquesCousteau]

The skipjack looks great!

 

So, with your woodworking experience and enthusiasm, I'm sure you'll be able to do a great job on your build. Given the questions that you've had, I think the most useful thing to do now, if you haven't already, is to poke around on this site and read some build logs. I wouldn't limit it just to build logs of big ships of the line, even if that's what interests you most, but build logs for smaller frigates, cutters, brigs, etc would also be helpful. Don't just look at scratch builds, too, as kit builds can also give you a lot of ideas. I've found that build logs for simpler vessels can sometimes be more detailed about things like framing, how to make the curved bow, how to plank, etc, because the more complex builds are often made by more experienced builders who would find step-by-step descriptions of things like that unnecessary and redundant. Reading some clear, detailed build logs with good photos can give you a better idea about how to start, and about what sort of build will work best for you. This site (as well as the NRG) has a ton of great information on it, you just have to go find it. For instance, you asked at the start of this thread how to make the bow D-shaped. It can be hard to explain that just in words, in part because there are a lot of parts that go into that. If you read up on some build logs, you'll be able to see how they frame the bow, fair it so it takes on a smooth shape, and curve and spile the hull planking (which is a much more complex process than it looks at first glance).

 

Checking out build logs is also useful in other ways. For example, Grandpa Phil mentioned the Triton plans, which can produce a beautiful, complex, detailed frigate. It's worth noting that, even with the full set of framing plans available, most build logs for the full ship stalled out at some point or another, often after years of work, simply because such a model is an enormously complex undertaking.

https://modelshipworld.com/forum/90-build-logs-for-the-full-hull-version-of-hms-triton/

 

(Notably, there are a lot more finished logs for the Triton cross-section, which you can see by selecting in the drop-down menu at the link above.)

 

I also just want to reiterate Wefalck's comment that a "challenging build" doesn't necessarily have to be the most complex ship, it just comes down to how much care you put into getting things right.

[mtaylor]

5 hours ago, James Flynn said:

I took a look at the Winchelsea and the triton both in the group builds and I found the NRG plans and they look great but just to small truthfully, I want to build something a little bigger I can see stepping down from the 1st rate but I don't think I would want to go les then a 3rd rate and after looking over everything I truly want to build a POF I can spend a few dollars on a good set of plans just need to keep things reasonable 

 

One can always take pans to a copy center and have them enlarged as needed.   

 

Also there are Harold Hahn plans available.  I'm sure who's selling them at this point.  They too will need enlarging.

[James Flynn]

12 hours ago, GrandpaPhil said:

Check out the HMS Triton group build on this forum.  The plans are $5 from the NRG and can be built as POF, POB or a cross section.  Everything is pre-lofted and the Triton is a frigate from the 1770’s.

 

The HMS Winchelsea is another excellent project that is the subject of a group build on this forum.  The plans are $15 from the NRG and it is designed as a POB build.  The Winchelsea is a frigate from 1764.

I went ahead and bought the triton plans you say it can be built in POF POB and in cross section do these plans give me the entire ship or is it just cross section Looking in the group build all of them are cross section builds also how to I get the plans I was expecting a download but I didn't get one is it mailed to me? 

[James Flynn]

dose the HMS Triton plans have the mast's and rigging in the plans?

[GrandpaPhil]

The Triton’s plans are in the group projects under the Triton downloads section that will be visible to you shortly, if not already.  The dimensions for the masts are in the plans.  I bought the Shipyard Mercury, a similar vessel, to get a solid rigging plan that I intend to one of these days utilize with Triton’s dimensions on Triton.

Edited October 19 by GrandpaPhil

[Gregory]

5 hours ago, James Flynn said:

dose the HMS Triton plans have the mast's and rigging in the plans?

Keep in mind that  construction plans such as the contemporary drawings from the NMM never have rigging plans.

Any rigging drawings are done after the fact based on knowledge of contemporary rigging practices.

Riggers didn't use "plans".  They knew what they were doing.

 

Any  three masted ship with similar sail plans from the time frame of Triton would have bee rigged the same.

 

Rigging Period Ship Models: by Lennarth Petersson covers the detailed rigging, line by line, of a contemporary model of HMS Melampus (1785).

 

Every rope on the model is covered in drawings like this.

The modeler should keep in mind that this is based on a model so there could be some minor differences from actual practice, but there would have been differences from actual ship to ship comparisons,.  The basic principles would have been the same because the mechanics of controlling a square rig were well established and varied little over several hundred years.   Of course there were changes in some details but these are well documented in references like The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1625-1860 by James Lees.

The dimensions of the masts and spars can be derived from various sources including Lees'.

 

[JacquesCousteau]

10 hours ago, James Flynn said:

Looking in the group build all of them are cross section builds

There are full model build logs in the group build. You have to click on the drop-down menu, as shown below, which also will show you other resources.

 

Good luck with your model!

[James Flynn]

53 minutes ago, JacquesCousteau said:

There are full model build logs in the group build. You have to click on the drop-down menu, as shown below, which also will show you other resources.

 

Good luck with your model!

I think I have downloaded everything correctly, But I have a couple questions are the Assembly Drawings the actual size of the finished build and if so, it looks like it's just over 2 1/2 feet long I would like it to be almost double that. Am I able to enlarge it and again if so which pages would I enlarge for a full body POF build? Would I half to enlarge all the drawing pages in the Full-Build section or could I get away with having to enlarge just a few?   

[JacquesCousteau]

59 minutes ago, James Flynn said:

I think I have downloaded everything correctly, But I have a couple questions are the Assembly Drawings the actual size of the finished build and if so, it looks like it's just over 2 1/2 feet long I would like it to be almost double that. Am I able to enlarge it and again if so which pages would I enlarge for a full body POF build? Would I half to enlarge all the drawing pages in the Full-Build section or could I get away with having to enlarge just a few?   

 

I haven't done this build, but my understanding is that they're digital files, so enlarging them shouldn't be an issue. If you're asking whether you need all of the plans in the enlarged scale to build a fully-framed model, yes, as you're planning on modeling practically every part and it won't work if half the parts are in a different scale. If instead you're asking whether you need all the plans right now, it may be useful to think about your build process. As you'll see if you read some build logs, you'll start with the keel assembly and then the frames before getting to other parts. So it may make sense to 1) figure out what scale factor you're using, 2) make sure you note the scale factor so you can scale consistently, and 3) print the plans for just the parts you'll be building first, and print plans for further parts as needed later, making sure to use the same scale factor.

[mtaylor]

I'll take a different stance.... once you have all the plans, enlarge all of them to the new size.   Then as needed you can print them out.  The reason I suggest enlarging all the downloaded plans is so that a) you get a good overview of everything.  b) you won't have missed any while building.    Also, there many print/copy shops around that will print out the enlarged plans for you.  Lastly, given the way costs go up it might be less expensive to do it now than wait.  At least that's my preferences, yours may be different.

[James Flynn]

Thanks everyone for all your advice and help I will post again when I'm ready to start my build. Need to save up for the enlargement proses lots of plans going to run a bit of a bill to get it done