Milling Machine

[rtropp]

Brian,

Is the pantograph an attachment for the Mill?  If so, I would like to see a picture if possible.

Also, could you let me know if there is any play in the controls for the x-y table?

Richard T

[jimbyr]

I don't have any of the mills you guys are talking about but I have used the Sherline and Taig and can say they are both good machines for the tiny stuff.  Rpm is definitely a big consideration and the faster the better when cutting wood or brass especially when using those tiny endmills.  Keep in mind the actual machine will only be half the cost in the long run.  All the accessories you'll need will easily cost more than the machine itself.  Adding vises,  indexers, buying all the cutting tools,  adding a DRO can double the price easily.  Don't skimp on the cutting tools,  buy good quality endmills,  carbide if possible.  

 

I have a small manual Hardinge TM UM milling machine with a Bridgeport M head mounted on it that I rebuilt in my shop at home which was originally 4250 top speed.  I quickly changed the motor and bearings in the head and now can run it at 12000 top end,  what a difference

 

Jim Byrnes

Model Machines 

[rtropp]

Jim,

I suspect you are using these to mill metal.  Are you using them to mill wood at all?

 

Richard T

[Chuck]

I originally bought a Microlux mill to test my block making concepts.  At 2500 rpm it was the same as the Sherline buut only about $200 cheaper.  I am one of those guys who prefers to use hand tools when making parts for my models.  I will take a sharp chisel over a mill any day of the week.  But to mass produce parts it just wasnt a consideration so I took the plunge.  

 

After about 6 months,  I had successfully set up a method for the mill to cut blocks.  I did not find that the 2500 rpm was a problem at all.   The Microlux is a heavy and sturdy machine.   It performed well.   But after 6 months I was producing 20,000 blocks per month.  I was probably using the mill more often than most here would ever need.   So about two months ago I sold the Microlux and bought a Sherline.  It was the same speed.   I still dont see a reason to have more speed.  But that doesnt mean that if I eventually did upgrade it for more speed I woudnt be happy.

 

The Sherline is actually lighter built and seems more fragile.   The Microlux was a heavy machine and could take a beating....BUT

 

The smoothness of the Sherline is far superior to the Microlux.  The movements of the X and Y tables are incredibly precise and very very smooth.   The movement in teh Microlux is a bit primitive and it has a lot of slop.   The set up time for the Microlux took so much longer because I had to account for the slop and loose-play in the X and Y axis.  You learn to adjust but the results spoke for themselves.

 

I have had far fewer rejects and much less tear-out of the wood using the Sherline.   The smooth precise operation gives you more control to maintain a consistent speed of the x and y tables....this produces a much cleaner part.  The number of accessories is also better for the Sherline.    

 

Do I need more power and more speed (RPM)???   I dont really know...but the 2500-2800 rpm on the Sherline seems to be more than enough. The finish and clean surface of the wood (boxwood and Swiss Pear) tells me that the the speed is just fine. I think its important to recognize what the proper feed speed of your work should be and not rush the operations...that will give you a problem.  Once again I am really abusing these machines.   They are being used 4 or 5 days a week for hours at a time.   My 17 year old son uses it with less care than I do...it has been holding up well and I literally make 20,000 blocks per month on it.  I cut wood anywhere from 1/16" thick to 3/16" thick...the larger sizes require multiple passes with the endmills....Before making a decision I recommend visiting a friends shop to sit and use theirs and discuss the pros and cons...you have to see and feel the machine at work.  Having used both brands in a short time I feel qualified to make the comparison....The Sherline is well worth the extra $200.

 

Chuck

[rtropp]

Chuck,

I appreciate your time in providing that comprehensive answer.  It is exactly what I am looking for. 

I don't have anyone nearby that has this equipment or I would visit them, In fact, I have not located a hobbyist or build club in GA. One reason why this site is so helpful to me.

 

By the way, lucky for you NJ is so far away or I would turn your answer into an invitation to visit

 

Richard T.

[jimbyr]

Richard

 

This machine is in my home shop.  I use it for milling boxwood,  pear, maple and a little aluminum or brass but 99% wood.  Chuck is right about the speeds and feeds and having the right combination.  The higher speeds are also a lot more forgiving  than the low on the tiny tools.  

 

Jim

[rtropp]

May I ask which models Sherline each of you are using?  I would like to do more research.

Thanks,

Richard

[Chuck]

I have the 5400......

 

It can be bought here the cheapest that I have seen.   There is an instant $25 coupon and free shipping.

 

http://www.discountcampus.com/cgi-bin/webc.exe/store/st_prod.html?p_prodid=4615

 

Its about $700

 

In comparison,  the Mocrolux is $500 plus about $45 for shipping....It would have also been some additional sales tax in NJ for me so the cost difference for me was only about $130

 

For you it would be only about $150 more for the Sherline but you then have to spend $$ on hold down clamps and endmills....the endmill chuck etc....the same is true if you bought the Microlux.

[captainbob]

Also, could you let me know if there is any play in the controls for the x-y table?

Richard T

The gibbs on the X-Y are adjustable, like ane good machine should be.  As for the handles to move the table you have to turn it a few degrees before the table moves but I see that on expensive machines too.

 

 

Bob

Edited November 15, 2013 by Cap'n'Bob

[Q A's Revenge]

This is a much more heavily built machine with a very handy 5000 rpm top speed I've not seen on a machine like this before.

 

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4660&category=

 

An important factor for machine tools is that (within reason) the more mass the machine has the better quality cut you'll likely to get.

$699.95 seems a good price compared to some other stuff out there...

[rtropp]

Bob,

I may not be explaining correctly.  Let me try again.  There are customers on Amazon that are describing their dissatisfaction with the Proxxon Mill.  For instance, one wrote "... the z-axis hand wheel had a full 1/4 turn of play". Others mentioned what sounded like similar comments.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that "play" is just the nature of the beast and will be experienced on many different mills?

 

By the way, I really am enjoying the education. Thank you all.

 

Richard T

Edited November 15, 2013 by rtropp

[WackoWolf]

You don't have a problem like that with the Sherline. Just my 2 cents. And yes I own both a Sherline CNC Lathe and Mill, there isn't any play like that with my hand wheels.

[rtropp]

Jim,

talk about making assumptions... I figured since you make machines, your primary use would be metal milling. Whew... guess I was way off the mark.

Richard T

[Q A's Revenge]

There is normally a small amount of backlash on lathes and milling machines (which gets worse over time as the bronze nut wears) unless it's fitted with ballscrews which are'nt common on hobby machines.

[captainbob]

I do not have the mill only the X-Y table.  I know nothing about the Z axis but the X-Y only has about 5 degrees turn befor the table moves.

 

Bob

[jud]

Have a Smitty 3 way Midis. Also have an 8" Rotary Table that I plan on making into a divider head with some add on home built attachments. Probably have everything I could need for model building and the means to make fixtures I might need for that hobby.

jud

[mtaylor]

Richard,

 

If it's the rpm holding you back, Sherline does make an RPM kit.  It may or may not fit the R8 type of mills from Micromark, Harbor Freight, etc.

 

I have the Mini-Mill from MM and have pointed out elsewhere what I thought were it's good points and it's bad points.  I did modify the drive system to produce about 12,000 rpm at the bit.. + or -. 

[Q A's Revenge]

The earlier linked Mill is also available to UK buyers here:

 

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines/SIEG-Super-X1LP-Mill

[rtropp]

Mark,

I appreciate the insights.  I began considering what I had been told about rpms but it seems that lower rpms could be countered by slower feed rates, so not sure that is significant in my decision process.

 

I guess my holding back is to figure what would be best.  I have bought some tools in the past that were limited, i.e. some dremel and proxxon.  These were learning machines but were fairly inexpensive. I could sell them which would limit the cost to well within reason for something to learn on. 

 

With the mills that does not really seem possible.  The key machines advised by this group seem to revolve around proxxon, micromart and sherline.  all of them involve fairly significant costs so I am taking more time to make the decision. (Heck, for me the shopping is part of the fun.)

 

Proxxon or MM would be least expensive, but once you start buying the necessary accessories the investment runs a lot higher.  I think that the Sherline would give me the most flexibility and the highest quality for the price. Also I suspect that if milling did not work out it would provide the best resale.

 

It is my intention to obtain both a table saw and a mill.  Because of the precision required of these tools it would seem to be a good idea to get the best I can afford.  the table saw will be the Byrnes, so I need to figure what is left over for the mill... and the accessories required.

 

Sherline's web site has some downloads for their mills that show how to set up, and how to use them.  Reading those is my next step.

 

So, I am going to take some time to investigate used mills to see what is available.

 

Thanks for the help. I will continue to post as I learn more.

Edited November 16, 2013 by rtropp

[Chuck]

If you buy the sherline...be prepared to build it yourself.  It comes in many many pieces that needs to be assembled.  The microlux just comes in two pieces.  You basically have to build the entire casing for the mill when you buy the Sherline.

 

 

Chuck

[jimbyr]

Richard

 

Most if not all the metal milling is done at the big shop or what we'll call my day job.  These machines all have 15HP motors on them and 10k to 15k spindles and remove aluminum faster than most people cut wood.  I can turn a 6 x 6 x 6 aluminum block into chips in about 2 minutes with them.  The home shop is dedicated to ship modeling and on occasion something that Donna thinks I should make for the house etc.  

 

The play in the Z axis  you are referring to is called backlash and is present on every machine.  The backlash is the result of the slop as we'll call it between the lead screw and the nut it sits in that is connected to and drives the axis. Obviously there has to be some play in there or the screw and nut would bind.  The better machines have what is called split nuts which are adjustable to remove as much of the backlash as possible.  To remove the backlash you would either move the nuts further apart or closer together to tighten them on the screw.  A 1/4 turn is an awful lot of backlash on a machine that I doubt has adjustable nuts.  Sounds like it needs a new nut or screw or both.   The nuts are usually made out of bearing bronze and the screws out of hardened steel so the nuts wear a lot more than the screws do and they can be replaced when they get really worn out.  I usually keep around .008 backlash on my manual machines.  Another way around working with the backlash is to install a digital read out which is going to be expensive but makes life a lot easier.  

 

Jim.  

[captainbob]

Still wondering about which to buy?  In industry we were told, "Buy 25% more capacity than you think you will need and you will find you use it all."  It's always bad to buy a machine and find out it won't do quite enough.

 

Bob

[Q A's Revenge]

Model engineering is one of my other hobbies Bob and when folks ask what machine to get on any of the other forums I frequent, the answer is always the same: "buy the biggest machine you can afford/have space for" and "you can do small work on large machines but you can't do large work on small ones!"

 

I have quite a large mill in the garage but if I was after something smaller for model boat building I personally wouldn't go for anything smaller than the two I linked.

In fact I think the specs make them almost ideal for the job provided you have the budget and space for one.

[rtropp]

We have been talking about various machines.  Some of us experience and some of us looking to try it out. The problem with trying it out is it pretty expensive for even the least costly machines, and too many of us have ended up upgrading which really adds to the cost. 

 

So, for those of us looking to learn, a cheap machine that is "adequate" would be nice if it was somewhat functional in model building tasks. 

 

I was poking around eBay and I found the product below. It is listed for education and training or crafts.  It is $99 and about $50 for shipping.

Now, I know it will not be a great machine.  But I wonder if it would be decent to learn on and also for some of the basic wood milling tasks that a beginner would try. At @$150 including shipping, it is the least expensive option I have seen but I do not know anything about the machine or its reputation.

 

Was wondering about your thoughts. 

 

 

The description is

Milling characteristics:

    Milling tool is cutter, cutter blade side and in front of all, there is a certain degree of risk, so be sure to use under the guidance of professionals.
    Machine's major components: such as spindle, tailstock, dock, slider, connecting blocks and so all-metal structure, accuracy up to 0.02mm.
    For processing: wood, soft metals (copper, aluminum, etc.), glass, plastic, etc.

Technical parameters:
    1.Motor speed: 20,000 rev / min;
    2.Input voltage / current / power /: 12VDC/2A/6W;
    3.Slide stroke: 30 ~ 50mm;
    4.Chuck :1-6mm;
    5.Vise clamping size: 25 ~ 35mm.

 

This is not computer controlled, that is just what has been put in the name.

[AntonyUK]

Hi all.

Just jumping in here with my comments and expearance with the Proxxon mill.

Being a ex toolmaker I spent most of my life with mills/lathes and all sorts of machines.

When buying you must look at the hardest and the biggist object you are going to machine.

I have a Proxxon mill and it's well built for Small jobs.

The gib's will need tightening before use as mine when I received it were quite lose.

Very easy job to adjust.

For me it's a very valuable tool to model ship making.

 

Regards Antony.

[tkay11]

Looks like the Unimat (not the old style Unimat but the newer plastic model which is totally unrelated to the old all-metal machines). A quick search will show lots of comments about it if indeed it is the basic Unimat. Most of the comments have been about how limited it is, but of course that is the point.

 

Tony

[EDIT: Antony got in before me. I was replying to rtropp's picture just above Antony's post]

Edited November 18, 2013 by tkay11

[jud]

Much more expensive, but you can do much with a Smithy. Plenty of attachments and tooling available, if you need the high speed, mount your Dremel  on the tool holder or mill whichever will provide the motion needed. I do have a table to get the work closer to the mill that mounts on the cross slide. Not a production machine, but I'm not into producing anything except for my own use. More machine than needed for hobby work, depends on your view. With it, some molding sand, a heat source, patterns and mold boxes you can easily produce any tools or simple machines that  you could ever want. Make your castings from aluminum and mill it on your smithy.

jud

Edited November 18, 2013 by jud

[tkay11]

Sorry, jud, I'm lost. What's a Smitty?

 

Tony

 

EDIT (after jud's edit): Oh! A smithy! All is clear!

Edited November 18, 2013 by tkay11

[jud]

I see I spelled it wrong, if you really wish to know, type in "smithy mill" on your browser. You will find much more than I could ever tell you.

jud

[tkay11]

OK, jud, I got it! And I've corrected my previous question in the light of this.

 

Tony