Venetian Carrack or Cocha by woodrat - FINISHED - 1/64

[Louie da fly]

I've really enjoyed following this build. It's been a real educational experience, and the quality of both your research and your modelling is of the highest. I hope a book eventuates - it's a worthy topic.

[Louie da fly]

On 2/9/2018 at 12:42 AM, woodrat said:

I am thinking of the next project which may be a 13th or 14th century mediterranean lateener (not a crusader ship, Steven).

A very good project, Dick. A very interesting time for nautical design - I wish I could work out how the sterns of some of these ships worked, particularly the ones of the Cantigas of Santa Maria.

 

 

 I should perhaps clarify that I meant ships of the crusading period (generally 1096 to 1291, between the crusaders gaining and losing the Holy Land). I'd actually be surprised if there were such things as crusader ships - it's far more likely that the ships the crusaders travelled in were provided (at a good profit) by the Italian republics, particularly Genoa and Venice. Certainly this was the case with the Fourth Crusade, and I expect with many, if not all, of the others.

 

Steven 

[woodrat]

10 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

I wish I could work out how the sterns of some of these ships worked, particularly the ones of the Cantigas of Santa Maria.

Yes, I have also been puzzling over these strange decorative transom wedding cakes. Not enough detail in most pictures. The Ships in the Ursula cycle and the Translatio of St Mark of Paolo Veneziano are highly detailed and it is likely I will choose one of these. The Contarini ship may be useful for hull structure.

Edited February 10, 2018 by woodrat

[Roger Pellett]

The ships in Steven’s post above appear to be hulks or “hulcs” These are sort of the “missing links” of ancient naval architecture.  There is a conjectural reconstruction of one of these in The Evolution of the Wooden Ship by Basil Greenhill.

 

Roger

Edited February 10, 2018 by Roger Pellett

[Roger Pellett]

See also “A Maritime Archeology of Ships”, Chapter 5 for a more recent (2013) discussion of rather meager archeological evidence of evidence of the hulk.

 

Roger

[woodrat]

4 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

The ships in Steven’s post above appear to be hulks or “hulcs” These are sort of the “missing links” of ancient naval architecture.

Indeed, Roger, I would not disagree but these strange shell-like construction on the stern, covering the steering oar, what are they? How would you model it? They are commonly seen in ilustrations of the period but serve no apparent use except for decoration. Can anyone enlighten us?

Dick

[Roger Pellett]

Sorry, I have no idea.  I would hazard a guess that they might be fabric.  

 

Roger

[Mark Pearse]

Yes from the picture I'd also guess some sort of fabric construction. I know nothing of these craft, but the artwork itself is interesting: they attempted accuracy, but it was before "scientific" art, "true" perspective etc so it does look a bit funny to us. They showed things in a stylised & perfected way, if it was fabric it was without breeze, dirt, disorder. I can't see the details well on the reproduction, but it possibly looks as if it can be open or closed on the bow side. A bit of shelter is always good on a boat & even better if it's adaptable, could it be as pragmatic as that? 

[druxey]

They appear to be rather tent-like.

[woodrat]

Could they be collapsed awnings folded up. Some illustrations show wing like stuctures at the stern which may be the awnings extended??

Dick

 

[Louie da fly]

I believe the last picture shows the planked timber housings for steering oars - at least that's how I interpret them. I'm going to base the steering housings for my own build on this picture.

 

The Cantigas ships aren't the only ones with weird structures at the stern. There are a plethora of weird and wonderful stern constructions on Mediterranean ships in and about the 13th century. Heaven only knows what they were, how they were built, or what they did . . .

 

By the way, I have serious doubts about the "hulc" theory - the original proposition is based on a single representation on the seal of the town of Hulkesmouthe which describes as a "hulc" a ship with these funny curved planks,

 

plus a couple of rather small vessels in the archaeological record which appear to be built of planks curved like a basket or a barrel, and could be interpreted as being the physical manifestation of the ship on the seal. (see http://www.machuproject.eu/machu_cms/VoC/VoC_Wreck_View.php?wreck_id=454&lang=EN for an example)

But the hulk/hulc was an ocean-going vessel by all accounts (it apparently replaced the cog) and I seriously doubt if the ships discovered would have survived well at sea.

 

It seems to me that the Cantigas ships, those on the seal, and several others I'm aware of (e.g. the ship carrying St Louis to his crusade)

 

 

 may  simply be an attempt to represent planking such as is found on the Viking longships - which also curves up at bow and stern, but misinterpreting the structure itself (the artists wouldn't be nautical types and simply drew what they thought was there from a brief look at a bunch of ships in harbour). Not enough, in my view, to base a whole academic theory on.

 

 

I just think the proponent of the "hulc" theory has leapt to a conclusion on far too little information - that the word hulc is used to describe the ship on the seal because of the planking shown - rather than (as I believe more likely) that it's simply being used as a generic word for "ship".

 

Not that I know what a hulc/hulk actually was - perhaps it was the ship which appears in the early 15th century with the same hull shape as the carrack, but with only a single mast - a sort of proto-carrack?

 

 

 

Perhaps a hulc wasn't a particular type of ship at all, just a word that came into use to describe ships in general.There's just far too little information out there.

 

Steven

Edited February 13, 2018 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

I'd best not get into the hulc argument.

[Louie da fly]

No, sorry - this has derailed the thread somewhat. I'll get back into my box now.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

On 12/02/2018 at 1:32 PM, woodrat said:

Could they be collapsed awnings folded up. Some illustrations show wing like stuctures at the stern which may be the awnings extended??

I have been thinking on this and I have almost convinced myself that these are fabric awnings, not wood, that can be deployed  by elevating a "stretcher" which is hinged at or keyed into the sternpost. Would this be possible at sea? What were they shielding? Spray ? Wind? Were they protecting the steersman from, wind and water? Or is this all just impractical fancy? Dick

More research needed

[Louie da fly]

This picture (also from the Cantigas) has more detail and may help decide what they are and how they're made.

 

 

The masts are interesting, too. And this ship has a hatch in the side.

 

My feeling is that these structures originated as protection for the steering oars (in case of collisions etc) - note that the "wings" still seem to be there - but may have evolved into something quite different.

 

Steven

Edited February 16, 2018 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

Thanks, Steven. I am starting to evolve something  that could explain the "canopies" as Prof. Pryor has called them in "cogs, caravels and galleons page 72.  I may have a cunning plan which is so extremely cunning that I may outwit myself.

Dick

Edited February 16, 2018 by woodrat

[Louie da fly]

Sounds as cunning as a very cunning thing.

 

Thought you might like this one, also from the Cantigas, which shows arrows sticking out of the mystery structure. Does this mean it was particularly solid, or would arrows stick like this into an awning anyway?

 

This is believed to date from the 1270s to 1280s.

Steven

[Mark Pearse]

It still looks like canvas to me, painted canvas. Interestingly the patterns look like ecclesiastical architecture of the same period ie: gothic; & in some examples shown they have a cross at the peak. Also these last 2 pictures appear again to show the canvas open to the forward side. I wonder if they were an on-board chapel (or maybe just the nave part), & when the canvas was opened to expose the nave & altar - facing forwards - the deck became like the chapel interior. If the outside were painted using architectural imagery, that would also follow. The peak represented the tower....? Would these vessels have had a priest on board?

[druxey]

Interesting supposition, Mark, and quite plausible. That structure - whatever it is - is represented fairly consistently in the images that have been posted.

[Louie da fly]

Dick, you probably have the pictures already, but I just came across this site, which has very good quality photos of the San Marco mosaics.

 

One from San Marco that doesn't appear on that site is below - a similar stern structure to those of the Cantigas, but not exactly the same - perhaps understandable, as it is Venetian, not Spanish.

 

I know there's at least one other in San Marco, but I haven't yet been able to locate it on the net. However, my lovely wife visited Venice the year before last and brought back a wonderful book of the glories of San Marco. If I can just work out where I put it . . .

 

 

Steven

Edited February 19, 2018 by Louie da fly

[woodrat]

On 18/02/2018 at 6:18 PM, Mark Pearse said:

I wonder if they were an on-board chapel (or maybe just the nave part), & when the canvas was opened to expose the nave & altar - facing forwards - the deck became like the chapel interior.

A very good thought, Mark. Many large round ships would have had a chaplain, particularly if transporting important personages. If so, Mass may have been said on the guarterdeck for all the crew, particularly at anchor. I doubt they were deployed at sea. Some of the "wings" seem to have folded down against the side and others to have folded up against the sternpost. The other panels seen above the wing seem to be painted panels on the side of the steersman's seat.

Dick

[woodrat]

post deleted

Edited February 27, 2018 by woodrat

[Louie da fly]

Very interesting. As Young Frankenstein said "IT - COULD - WORK!!!

 

 

Steven

[woodrat]

The fearsome and toothsome Dragon

 

Dick

[Louie da fly]

Nice.

 

Steven

[woodrat]

The build almost finished. Flags of the Moro family in place (silkspan). Note: the Moro family crest consists of bunches of blackberries. This is a pun on the venetian name. The original name of the Moro family was Mauro or a moor. This was corrupted to Moro which is also the italian for blackberry. I have only the anchors yet to make.

 

 

 

 

Dick

Edited April 8, 2018 by woodrat

[goetzi73]

Really amazing - a Masterpiece I would say. I've found quite a lot of interesting points for my own build. Hope you enjoined that dram on the first picture.

 

Götz

Edited April 8, 2018 by goetzi73

[woodrat]

1 hour ago, goetzi73 said:

 Hope you enjoined that dram on the first picture.

 

Götz

Thanks Götz. Yes, indeed. A coastal highland of some distinction.

Dick

[druxey]

Well researched and well reconstructed. I'm in awe of your courage in tackling a ship of this era and producing such a convincing result. Altogether a lovely job, Dick. Congratulations!

[woodrat]

Thanks for following, Druxey. I appreciate all the feedback

Dick

Edited April 8, 2018 by woodrat