HMS Fly by Martin W - Amati/Victory Models - 1/64

[Martin W]

So here's a question:  I figure the best next step would be to finish sanding the deck, and then lay down a couple coats of poly. Ok.  In the meantime, I need to finish assembling all the gun carriages, but they require some wire, both to hold the 2 sides together and for the eyebolts -- plus I need to make the eyebolts & ring bolts along the deck.  But I'm having a heckuva time finding some wire.  It seems that every where I've looked has coated wire, and it can't be soldered.  Suggestions?

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Martin W]

Spy -- Pretty much all the wire I've seen around here in the hobby stores is sold for jewellery purposes and has a coating that makes it "tarnish proof."  I have in fact tried running it through the flame of the soldering device, but not all the coating comes off so that the solder just doesn't hold.

[Martin W]

Well Spy, I checked at Lowe's (there is no Home Depot in my little town), and negative.  They do have insulated copper wire, but not in the small gauge I need.  I went to the Radio Shack, and they said they had some but were out (and since the chain has declared bankruptcy, I doubt this store will be re-stocking).  I'm looking at an online source -- Ages of Sail -- but it's hard to know what they actually are offering.  It does seem odd that such an ordinary item should prove so elusive.

[GuntherMT]

So here's a question:  I figure the best next step would be to finish sanding the deck, and then lay down a couple coats of poly. Ok.  In the meantime, I need to finish assembling all the gun carriages, but they require some wire, both to hold the 2 sides together and for the eyebolts -- plus I need to make the eyebolts & ring bolts along the deck.  But I'm having a heckuva time finding some wire.  It seems that every where I've looked has coated wire, and it can't be soldered.  Suggestions?

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

I just finished making some eye-bolts.  I just used small brass rod - .020" from K&S Engineering which is typically stocked at Hobby Lobby or your local hobby shop.  You can also order brass rod in whatever size you want from here - http://www.specialshapes.com/roundsolbars.html

[Martin W]

Thanks for that, Brian, this looks like a very useful source.

 

Spy, I'm just as surprised about Radio Shack as you are, but I guess people don't build crystal radio sets any more.

[Martin W]

Hello all -- I've been away for a bit, and find that I have loads of catching up to do with other build logs.  First, though, I have a small update on Fly, in that I have been puttering a bit with the gun carriages while I decide what to do next with the deck furniture.

 

First, inspired by Blue Ensign, I constructed a rough jig to hold the axles in place in order to set the brackets on them -- my experience with the other 2 builds I've done reminded me that this is about the trickiest step.  Basically, the jig consists of pieces glued onto a base that will hold the axles at the distance of the notches on the brackets, and then will hold the 2 brackets in place as the builder (ie, me) tries to get everything aligned.

 

                                      

 

                                      

 

                                      

 

I should add here that this is BE's patented jig -- BE, I owe you a merlot.

 

And I might also mention that I thought I had some shots of when I actually used the jig with the stained brackets & trimmed axles, but guess, not; so I simulated the process with an un-finished set.

 

The next step I want to record is making the handle for the quoin.  Now, this is a tiny tiny little speck of a detail, and one that I simply have never been able to work out with the exacto.  But I did just happen to invest in a Proxxon lathe a few months ago from John at Texxn5, and decided to give it a whirl.

 

                                       

 

Spyglass, this is for you, pal. 

 

                                        

 

                                        

 

That lathe is a dream.  The turning tools that came with the lathe are much too large for a little piece like this, so I used a square needle file. 

 

Even though I did manage to get the 1/16" kit-supplied stock down quite a bit, I'm afraid that the handle looks somewhat on the large side.  Here's the view with the barrel lying on the carriage:

 

                                         

 

To my eye, the handle shouldn't really go any further back than that round dealie (forget the term) at the rear of the barrel.  Could I have carved something like this?  Maybe, but with 16 to do, they would probably take me at least 16 full evenings, and 32 gashes on my fingers.

 

I'm also a bit uneasy about the eyebolts, which are all of the 28 gauge coated wire I had on hand, and therefore not soldered.  They're pretty flimsy.  For the ring bolts, I do have some uncoated wire, though it is quite a bit thicker, at 24 gauge; but that ring will just have to be soldered in order to stay on.

 

Now, to catch up with all the other great builds!

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[GuntherMT]

Hi Martin,

 

Nice job on the quoin handle.  I did something very similar when I got my Proxxon lathe from John, but I was never happy with the size.  In the end I just stuck a short piece of black wire into the quoin and used CA glue to build up a little bit of a 'ball' for the end and painted it black.

 

Yours looks better than I ever managed, but I agree that it's still a bit oversized.  However, if you are happy with that look over a simple solution like I ended up going with, then that's all that matters, and I think it will look just fine, especially when the entire model is being viewed, and not just that single detail.

[Blue Ensign]

Nice little quoin Martin.

 

I tried to make these out of slivers of styrene square section pared down with a scalpel, with a 0.25mm rod length for the handle.

 

This is an early shot taken when I was fiddling around with the guns.

 

The problem was that at a size that made them recognisable as a quoin they elevated the gun too much so that when run out the barrels had a downward angle which didn't look good.

 

 If I pared the wedge down to a size that allowed the barrel to sit right thro' the port, the wedge became so small there wasn't room to fit a handle, and the quoin looked like a blemish on the carriage bed.

 

Hence you will see that no quoins are in use on my Pegasus.

 

I hope you do better.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

 

 

 

 

[Martin W]

Thanks for checking in, guys, I appreciate it. 

 

Brian, a very rough version of the wire solution is what I used before, but I was never successful with getting the glue built up in a way that it looked like anything more than glue, and the wire always looked to me like wire (maybe because I knew what it was).  There is the problem here, that you suggest, of turning the handle down so small that it ceases to exist (and to my old eyes, that doesn't have to be so terribly small).

 

BE, your comments about the appearance of the gun barrel when run out set me thinking (or worrying).  Running out the guns would be an excellent test.  And here are the results:

 

                                                

This is a gun with the quoin untrimmed.  This next shot says it all:

 

                                                

The gun closest to the camera has no quoin, and the barrel does indeed lie at a much better angle (unless the Fly gunners were shooting at the Kraken).   And I was surprised that these guns just barely fit through the port -- if the carriages were any higher at all, there would be problems.

 

So here's a question:  that little piece of wood that goes on top of the rear axle strikes me as odd in the way it is supplied in Chuck's set-up:  of all the pieces in this very nice kit, it's the one that I have to trim the most, as in almost half its length.  Perhaps it is also too high, so that the addition of the bed and quoin on top of it make the rear of the barrel too high.  In other words, maybe I can still have quoins if I trim that odd piece of wood down a might.  Eh? 

 

Thanks again, guys, your comments give me plenty to mull over.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[jbshan]

The center of the bore should be about in the center of the opening so there is room for elevating the barrel.

[GuntherMT]

I can't really tell from your picture, is the bed laying flat?  It should be flat laying on the board across the rear axle to the wire that gets run through the middle.

 

You can also increase the depth of the notch where the trunion goes to drop the barrel a bit.  Also, the trunion offset is towards the bottom of the barrel, it looks like you might have it upside down, but that only increases your clearance issue.

 

I know that the carriages I got from Chuck were taller than the kit carriages, so you might just have to do some trimming/adjusting of the overall height to get it to fit your kit?

[Blue Ensign]

Hi Martin, the sit of the guns thro' the port is worrying and something that will have to be addressed.

 

Using just the kit supplied stuff I had a similar problem, but having the guns too low or high thro' the port can spoil the look of the whole model.

 

I did use the kit carriages combined with the RB 32mm guns and replacement Amati carriage wheels which were of a slightly smaller diameter but better quality than the kit supplied Amati wheels (go figure)

 

This gave me more leeway to get the sit of the guns looking right, but as Brian has noted there are other tweaks available to improve the situation. I think I also probably deepened the notch to take the trunnions and  played around with rebates on the underside of the bed where it sits on the rear axle and forward tie bolt.  Is there scope perhaps for reducing the thickness of the bed to improve the situation.

 

This is a problem that many of us have faced to a greater or lesser degree, but is one that can be sorted.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

 

 

 

 

[Martin W]

Thanks for the comments, guys. 

 

jbshan -- the center of the gunport makes absolute sense as an ideal, and as a practical measure to aim for.  Right now, it seems a pretty hard standard to achieve. 

 

Brian & BE -- thanks for the suggestions, all of these are real possibilities to achieve the standard jbshan suggests.  Trimming both the transom (I've done nothing to it yet, and all the illustrations I can recall show a U-shaped top in which the barrel rests), and the trunnion notches will certainly make a difference.  I began experimenting last night with sanding the bed to reduce its thickness, but was called away before I got very far.  Rebating the underside of the bed makes even more sense, and that's something I'll definitely try out this evening.

 

Brian, you're right that I laid the barrel on the bed upside down -- I didn't pay any attention to its proper setting, since I hadn't even put the trunnion in.  That was just a mock-up to see how the elements were coming together.  Your keen observation will go far, however, in helping me to line up all the pieces to a proper symmetry.  Thanks.

 

And as you say, BE, this is a problem that will have to be addressed -- and just by the little bit of playing around I've done, setting the mock-up in different ports, I can see that it'll probably entail customizing each gun to its own port.  But, hey, isn't that how it all should be?  -- I think I do have some of the RB barrels, but I don't remember how they fit on a carriage from Syren. 

 

A conversation like this really, really does make the whole enterprise of a build much more interesting.  Thanks for the suggestions, you guys.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Looking really great Martin, very nice job!  Good idea to test fit things.

 

Cannons were the bane of my Badger build.  I can't tell you how many times I popped them off the deck inadvertently.  I'm probably going to do everything I can on the hull before adding them.

[jbshan]

I wouldn't swear to it, but I think if you take off that top level of the gun carriage it might be a good fit.  Make a mockup to try it out for fit before you massacre all your carriages, but the distance seems about right.

One of the jobs of the gunner and carpenter was to trim or otherwise readjust the carriages to fit the port openings.  You're just repeating period practices.

[Martin W]

Thanks for that suggestion, jbshan.  It would affect the appearance of the Syren carriage, but maybe not so drastically as to violate historical accuracy.  I see, for example, that the bracket depicted in FFM vol 2, p 136 has only three steps above the bottom piece.  I might just try this out.

 

So far I have tried filing the trucks to a narrower diameter (by a full 1/32"), deepening the slot in the brackets that holds the axletrees, and deepening the groove on top for the trunnion.  All that and I find that the barrel is still well above center.

 

No pictures this time, since they would show relatively little progress.  But I am pushing on!  (which is to say that any more suggestions would be welcome!)

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[aliluke]

Hi Martin

Went back into my own Fly log to remind myself about the cannons. Certainly centering the barrel in the port is the key. I used the Syren carriages combined with the RB barrels. What size Syren carriage are you using? Is that the issue? I had no issue with the fit of mine for centering so can't understand where yours comes from as everything else looks just fine.

 

Any way I'm dipping my toes back into the Fly/Pegasus forum with a view to getting back into my own model. Time is not on my side but with you and Vitus catching me up/passing me and Blue Ensign pulling well ahead and all of them looking so bloody good the juices are flowing again. It isn't a race but your logs remind me that there is all sorts of great things to challenge, make and meditate upon as the building of ship model unfolds. May be next year if I can get rid of the weekly travel...

 

Your Fly looks great - sort those cannons - I'm sure you will.

 

Cheers

Alistair

[Martin W]

Woohoo!!

 

Alistair -- it's great to hear from you again, and to hear that you're getting the taste back.  Yes, I have gone over your pages on the guns and have wondered over and over where my problems lie.  Maybe it's that blasted plywood strip that I might have set just a millimeter or two low????  But now I have to deal with it.

 

My kit's guns are metal, Spy.  They're an odd sort of bronze color, about twice the size of the carriages from Syren, and the barrels are easily twice as big.  The RB barrels are not as big as the kit's, but they're still thicker than Syren's, which measure 1 11/64" in length.  I've been taking lots of photos, really just to give myself an objective view of how the guns look when run out, so I can know whether or not to trim more.  Here are a few -- first the kit barrel poking out:

 

                                                                     

 

I'd like to say that the Britannia carriage is just too ugly to be photographed, but the truth is that I just haven't taken it's portrait yet.  Maybe in a later posting.

 

Here are 2 guns whose carriages I've been trimming -- as I believe I mentioned, I'm pretty much going to have to customize each to its own port.

 

                                                                    

 

Am I there yet?  Hmm, not quite.  But you guys have all been so encouraging that I'm invigorated to persevere!

 

I can't wait to see postings by both of you, Alistair & Spy!

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Mirabell61]

Good looking gunports Martin,

 

Looks like you`ve found what you were after....

 

Nils

[Martin W]

Thanks Nils. Coming from a Real Craftsman like you, with such an eye for detail, that means a lot.  I'm still hoping to lower the aft gun barrel by just a bit to get it closer to the center, and possibly even get it to point less downward.  Since I've embarked on this path of obsession, I might as well become obsessed!

 

Cheers, and thanks to all the likes!

 

Martin

[jbshan]

You seem to be on the right track with those barrels.  I had that issue with one model and checked carefully with the next.  I had to lower the deck beams (top of bulkheads) to get enough clearance.  I wonder if that is checked carefully enough.

The Royal Navy would land guns when a ship went into ordinary.  Sometimes they got the same guns and carriages back.  Perhaps the customization done on board is one reason.

[Martin W]

A quick update on the carriages. 

 

I've been filing, cutting, trimming just about everywhere I can think -- and I have to thank everyone for their suggestions of bits and places to reduce.  Here are the results.

 

 

First the broadside view.

                                                      

 

Next, a closer view looking forward. 

 

                                                      

Here you can see that the gun barrels follow the sweep of the deck.  That worried me for several evenings, but I have come to think it's inevitable.

 

And here are the guns on deck, all in place.

                                                      

 

Of course there remain loads of details to add.  I followed BE's advice and gave up on the quoins:  no matter how much I cut them down, they still angled the barrel significantly downward.  

 

It's now time to start on the ring bolts.  The eyebolts that I've already put in place are 28 gauge wire, and are very flimsy.  In fact I broke several off while trimming around the carriages.  But that's the size Chuck says to use in the kit instructions, so who am I to deviate.  For the ring bolts, however, I really think I'm going to have to sneak in something a wee bit thicker, say 24 gauge, which I think is .5mm.  I suppose these will need to be soldered in order not to fall off -- a process I don't especially anticipate with glee (it entails putting the boatyard through a serious cleaning to get up all the dust from sanding -- I wouldn't want Mrs W to come home to an incinerated me). 

 

In addition, I've looked at the GR emblems I got from Daniel, and can't fathom how I'll manipulate those tiniest of tiny thinglings onto the barrel.

 

                                                        

 

Finally, just for comparison, here's the Syren carriage and barrel next to the kit version:

 

                                                        

I have a recollection that Alistair had a picture of the kit setup, but I think it's worth remembering just how, ahem, crummy it is -- the barrel is too long, the "carriage" is more of metaphor than a carriage.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

 

[Blue Ensign]

I think you've nailed the guns Martin, they look so much better, and looking along the deck the carriages look good.

 

The problem of the quoins is that the deck camber also works against getting the barrels to sit level and the quoins simply magnify it.

 

Those GR ciphers are smaller than the ones I used, and they were small enough!

 

I attached them to the guns using the merest spot of thick ca -  end of a needle job, To position them you could use a tiny sliver of double sided tape, or perhaps a spot of pva on the end of a thick needle or similar.

 

If and when you blacken the guns, any excess of ca you have missed will show up around the cipher, and they will need to be re-blackened after cleaning up again. I used the point of a scalpel and acetone to re-clean any areas, but remember acetone removes ca so care has to be taken that the cipher isn't loosened.

 

This process also shows up any ciphers that weren't securely attached.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

 

 

 

 

[Martin W]

Thanks for the vote of approval, and confidence, BE.  I've read over your account of those ciphers several times and can't help but feel daunted.  The sheet I got from Daniel has 2 sizes of ciphers, but I thought -- without actually measuring -- that the smaller ones would be appropriate for the Syren barrels.  As I recall, you were able to use Pegasus kit's barrels with RB carriages, right?  I have some RB barrels, and they are also larger than the Syrens, though not as large as the Fly kits.

 

Thanks for coming by,

 

Martin

[Blue Ensign]

Other way around Martin, I used the RB barrels with the kit carriages, but I did change the wheels on the carriages. The RB barrels were pretty much spot on for scale.

 

Looking back at my full build log in the other place, this is what I wrote at the time:

 

Details in the Swan Class sloop books suggest that short six pounders would have been fitted to a small vessel such as Pegasus.
These have an o/a length of 6’ 6” with a bore of 3.66”

 

Converting the 1:24 scale drawing to 1:64 would give an o/a length of 31.63mm. a muzzle diameter of 4.11mm. Max dia (at the Base ring) of 5.44mm and a bore of 1.3mm.

 

In terms of Length and bore the Amati version gun is somewhat out at 38.03 length o/a and bore of 2.40mm. Maximum diameter (at the Base ring) is close at 6.09mm, the muzzle less so at 4.75mm.

 

Although they look superficially ok I don’t know if the bronzy cast guns will take a blackening procedure and I would have preferred turned brass versions.

 

I ordered a sample 32mm brass turned gun from JB models and this is much closer to the given scale dimensions. o/a length 32mm, muzzle dia 4.19mm, max dia (at Base Ring) 5.96mm, and bore 1.7mm.

 

I did subsequently order sample guns from Chuck and very nice they are too. As you say they are a tad smaller than the RB versions, and as the RB guns looked good to my eye I decided to stick with them.

 

However, I would also be happy with full set of Syren guns, once a matching set is in place, they look good.

 

Cheers, B.E.

[Martin W]

Thanks for that, BE.  I tried out an RB barrel on the Syren carriage, and found that it didn't fit well at all.  I measure Syren's length at 29.82 mm, and its base width at 4.01 mm, which makes it considerably slimmer.  The real problem I had with the RB kits lay with its overall appearance -- the slots for the trunnions are set well back behind the front axle tree, and the trucks are simply enormous.  Still, the RB turned brass barrels do look nice.

 

I'll be rooting aroung the other place quite a bit as I work through these guns.  Your log remains the most complete narrative of a Swan build, and of absolute ingenuity in solving numerous problems.

 

  I still haven't started the soldering yet, but am thinking seriously of setting the base eye-bolt for the ring bolts into the brackets as semi-circles; that would seem to adhere more closely to the description in FFM of the eyes being embedded.  If that's at all clear.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Hey Martin, your Fly is coming along really nicely!  I'm about to start the lower hull planking on my Pegasus.  Did you end up working from the wales down to the keel?   Did you spile your planks?  

 

It seems a little tricky to spile if you are going with a double planking approach.  I'm thinking that I'll have to draw out the bulkhead ribs on the first planking to get some reference points.  The good thing is that by coppering my hull, I really only have to be concerned with spiling the upper third portion of the lower hull.

 

Hope all is well!

[Martin W]

Hi Mike -- It's great to hear from you, and that you are still at the Pegasus!

 

I divided my planking into 3 bands, and started the lower band first, going from the keel upward, then I did the top band from the wales downward.  That left me with the well-defined middle band (and it alerted me to the trouble spots where planks were threatening to become too narrow or too wide).  And I found that spiling was an absolute necessity, one that was made easier with those nice chisels from Veritas, but still made the overall task go on much, much longer than I had anticipated.  In hindsight, I think that if I had invested in a proportional divider I might have been able to look ahead better.  In foresight, I am promising myself that, as with every step in modelling, experience provides the best education.

 

I like the look of copper on a lot of the builds I've seen on MSW.  But I decided that I wanted this one to be as much a boxwood build as I could make it. 

 

Can't wait to see the latest update to your Pegasus!

 

cheers,

 

Martin

[KenW]

Hey Martin.  It seems you resolved your problem with the gun carriages.  Congrats.

I am using the Syren carriages and not having any problems.  Did you use the 11/64 ones?

Anyway, your results look fine.

Cheers.

[Martin W]

Thanks for checking in, Ken, your gracious comment is timely as I was just about to post the latest.  So here goes.

 

I glued the cyphers on with the tiniest drop of pva I could get with the point of a pin, and generally it was still too much.  Before attaching them, I bent them into a rounded shape to match the barrels by squeezing them with some metal crimpers I found in the back of my drawer.  They actually needed even more bending than I thought they would, but that did end up being essential to getting them to stay on the barrel.

 

As expected, the blackening process required multiple dowsings, with cleaning in between.  (No photos of this process, sorry -- it mostly entailed soaking in the blackening solution -- Blacken It -- drying, cleaning with mineral spirits, soaking again, etc.)  After knocking of several cyphers -- and these little things are impossible to recover after a "fly off" -- by daubing spirits on them or trying to scrape around them with a soft brush, I cut my losses and resorted to a diluted black paint.

 

                                                      

I was afraid that even when thinned, the paint would conceal the cypher, but as you can see it does show up.  (Well, ok, when showing it off to the Missus, I had to hand over my Opti-visor; but she was impressed.)

 

As for the touch holes, they were too long, and overlapped the back most ring.  When I tried timming them, I just made them look ugly.  So the touch holes on these guns will require a certain effort by the Mind's Eye.

 

For the cap squares I cut narrow strips of card that I then blackened and bent over a drill bit to form the trunnion, and then glued them onto the tops of the brackets.  I wanted to add joint bolts, so following BE's lead, I simply cut some 26 gauge blackened wire loops in half, drilled one hole through the very back of the cap square and another just behind, and set the wire in there, 

 

Here's the result:

 

                                                        

 

FFM shows an eyebolt at the front of the cap square which has a considerably different shape, since the cap square would fit over it as a latch.  In the drawing, this appears as squared eyebolt.  I didn't want to go with another round eyebolt, as I thought that would be too big.  Finally I hit on the idea of bending a piece of wire over the edge of an old exacto blade, and here's what I got:

 

                                                        

If you look really closely, I mean really, you can make out a sort of flattened loop at the very top of that wire.  I was feeling pretty happy with this solution, until I started drilling through the front of the cap square.  Again, no photo, but this is because it's just too horrible to show:  I guess the space in the front is small enough that the action of the drill bit pulled up the card, twisted it, and effectively ruined  my cap square.  I tried again after coating the card with Humbrol, thinking that would harden it.  But no.  So far, then, no eyebolts in the front.  And maybe that's ok, since I don't have any ultra-thin chain anyway.

 

But that's where I've managed to get in these days of too many committee meetings.  And now that the leaves have all fallen in the back yard, my weekend will probably be spent mulching them then griping about my aching back. 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

Edited November 12, 2015 by Martin W