bensid54 Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share #421 Posted November 28, 2015 Wow! Lots of interesting information, thanks for all your research avsjerome2003. I'm learning more about this ship as I go along, one thing I'm curious about is how was the sail positioned when underway using the oars? The sail would cause huge wind resistance unless it was taken out of the equation. mtaylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted November 28, 2015 Author Share #422 Posted November 28, 2015 I see well then because it is RC and I want as little wind resistance as possible I guess they will be broadside and furled. I wonder just how much that will slow down the oars? mtaylor and Omega1234 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtaylor Posted November 29, 2015 Share #423 Posted November 29, 2015 Ben, Can you make the mast removable? In for when it's on display, and out when it's on the water. BenF89, Omega1234 and avsjerome2003 3 Quote Mark "The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me Current Build: Past Builds: La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD Triton Cross-Section NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Non-Ship Model: On hold, maybe forever: CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share #424 Posted November 29, 2015 I could, the rigging however could be a challenge. I realize the one photo is not accurate but do able back then, I also understand the need to keep the deck clear, but how did they quickly and easily remove the mast, rigging and sail? Omega1234 and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted November 29, 2015 Share #425 Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) A beautiful ram, certainly, but perhaps not the first discovered. There's another at Piraeus museum which I saw when I visited Athens in 2000. As far as I know it had been there for quite some time. It's at http://greeklandscapes.com/greece/piraeus/pictures/pages/dsc00158_jpg.htm I have my own photo of it somewhere among my holiday snaps. Edited November 29, 2015 by Louie da fly avsjerome2003, Omega1234 and bensid54 3 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler FINISHED Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36379-mistydeefer-by-louie-da-fly-finished-restoration-decor-yacht/#comment-1040663 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share #426 Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) Louie, do you know what they did with the mast and sail when using oar power during battle? I've watched videos of the Trireme they built in Greece and when under way with oars they had the sails furled tight. I think that furled sails may be correct because I'm sure they put a lot of time and effort into research before they took on such a huge project and if that was how they set it up I'm sure that must be right. Edited November 29, 2015 by bensid54 avsjerome2003 and Omega1234 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 1, 2015 Author Share #427 Posted December 1, 2015 When sails were furled on the Bireme did someone also climb up and bind them or secured them tight with rope? Omega1234 and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted December 1, 2015 Share #428 Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) The Wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme says the Ancient Greeks took down the masts and railings before battle (in the paragraph entitled Tactics. I read somewhere recently that they actually threw the masts overboard before going into battle and retrieved them afterwards. Certainly most battles were fought near land, so it's not unlikely they sent the ashore if they knew they were in for a fight. In Byzantine times the same thing applied - masts were lowered before battle. They were nothing but an impediment and could actually be a danger if, say the enemy managed to cut the shrouds and make the mast fall. Furling a sail by climbing out onto the yard was the common way to go until the development of footropes in the 17th or 18th century. Pictures of of 15th and early-mid 16th century ships show this, and there's no reason to suppose it wasn't done this way throughout history. Steven Edited December 1, 2015 by Louie da fly mtaylor, Omega1234 and avsjerome2003 3 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler FINISHED Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36379-mistydeefer-by-louie-da-fly-finished-restoration-decor-yacht/#comment-1040663 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share #429 Posted December 2, 2015 So I could forget about doing sails altogether, be much easier and that being the case this build would almost be done. mtaylor, avsjerome2003 and Omega1234 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie da fly Posted December 2, 2015 Share #430 Posted December 2, 2015 Yes, I think so. It's battle-ready, with masts already removed . . . If you were undertaking a voyage under oars, however, you'd keep the mast and yards in place - apparently they were accustomed to combining oars and sail when the wind was in the right direction. Steven mtaylor, avsjerome2003 and Omega1234 3 Quote It's not really a ship model unless you've bled on it. CURRENT BUILDS Venetian merchant Ship from Basilica of San Marco Golden City - Ballarat paddlewheeler FINISHED Australian couta boat RMS Titanic HMVS Cerberus 11th century Byzantine dromon Winchelsea Nef - Late 13th century Mediaeval ship Henry Grace a Dieu - Rebuild of 1:200 model I started in 1967 https://modelshipworld.com/topic/36379-mistydeefer-by-louie-da-fly-finished-restoration-decor-yacht/#comment-1040663 Mistydeefer - restoration of decor model yacht Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share #431 Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Steven would you know how they made the mast removable? Did they sit in a hole on deck? Were they braced and tied above deck? If there was a hole on deck was it covered with anything? I'd like to know so I can make a battle ready Bireme, as far as I know no one has made a display model of a battle ready Greek Bireme. Edited December 4, 2015 by bensid54 Omega1234 and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanasis Posted December 4, 2015 Share #432 Posted December 4, 2015 Hi all. There's a pdf file titled as "BRONZE AGE SHIPS AND RIGGING" which can be found by a web browser... I haven't read it (sorry ancient ships don't attractive me) but you might find something useful within its lines.. Btw... If my opinion counts, you're making a wonderful model. ! Thanks mtaylor, Omega1234 and avsjerome2003 3 Quote https://www.naftotopos.gr/index.php/el/ There are no bad or good model makers. There are only less or more experienced. In gallery Tsernikoperama - Trechandiri Brachera - Bombarda Sabatiera -Tserniki vessel rigged as Penna - NE Aegean Sea Tserniki -Tserniki of Mykonos Island -Tserniki of Mytilene Island -Trechandiri-schooner rigging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfish Posted December 4, 2015 Share #433 Posted December 4, 2015 that ram is a work of art, the whole thing is amazing, cant wait to see her sail. maybe set up a mock hull to have fun ramming? mtaylor and Omega1234 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share #434 Posted December 4, 2015 Thank you Thanasis for the info and compliment I'll be looking that up right away and it may also come in handy for reference material for my next build which will be Charon boat man of the river Styx. Thanks for the compliments Lionfish I may just do that you know make one out of thin balsa with a lead keel, it would shatter, splinter and sink nicely. lionfish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share #435 Posted December 4, 2015 I read through that reference and was directed to other information, two key things I learned: 1. The mast was forward of centre for stability and for better control of the vessel. 2. The mast was supported above deck on other ships of the time by a mast box that would allow them to lay the mast down on deck and raise it with minimum difficulty. I do however plan on having the mast and rigging thrown overboard during battle, just the same a mast box would make reinstallation easier for them in that case, my intention is to have my Bireme look as it would when going into battle. On most of the depictions of Biremes and Triremes there were railings on deck to prevent the warriors from falling off plus the bow had railing that was solid from the deck up. The hatch doors for my rowers are made to tip out creating a shield for them if they were to shoot arrows while standing on their seats. So my next steps will be A. make railings. B. make a mast box and mount it forward of centre. C. remove the stand I installed for tying the rigging to and move it further forward. Now my question is what would sit on deck of those ships during the Bronze age that I can use to mount my deck hold down screw in? I thought of shields but would rather not make fifty shields, I don't know did they have boxes to store extra arrows in, what would stay permanently on deck? mtaylor and Omega1234 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share #436 Posted December 7, 2015 Starting the stern handrails. mtaylor, BenF89 and captainbob 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share #437 Posted December 7, 2015 Making the deck mast support block. BenF89, avsjerome2003, lionfish and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 13, 2015 Author Share #438 Posted December 13, 2015 More progress! I'm thinking that I would change what was originally going to be mast base to a pot of quills that way I can still hold down the deck with something that could have possibly been there. The block forward of deck centre will be the mast block where they would put the base of the mast in and give them a lever point to raise the mast against . The space between the rudder and deck rail is there for the boys to leave the centre deck and get off the ship to shore or another vessel for more battle. There is going to be a space between the railing and the bow enclosed railing for the same purpose as the aft space. All this stuff makes sense to me because extra arrows on deck may come in handy because you can never have too many. The mast block makes sense too because of the simple mechanical advantage of it and I'm sure they weren't a bunch of boneheads building these ships so they would know how it would benefit them. The railings would serve two functions A. Stop them from falling overboard too easily B. Give them something sturdy to hang on to as they make their way back and forth. C. Set up and spaced for easy and rapid entering and exiting of the area for warriors and rowers. As I read about the ships of those times I'm getting a better understanding and also the missing info lets me fill in the blanks myself, I just love doing stuff like that. Charon is going to be a real challenge I'm very much looking forward to that one. mtaylor, BenF89, Angarfather and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenF89 Posted December 14, 2015 Share #439 Posted December 14, 2015 Looking like a lean, mean, fighting machine. She's about ready to help rout the enemy in the straits of Salamis! Omega1234 and mtaylor 2 Quote ~ Ben ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Current Builds: 'Doll-Boat' - 1:12 scale 40' Cruising Sailboat S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald - 1:350 plastic kit w/ Photo Etch Parts (On Hold) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share #440 Posted December 14, 2015 Thank you Ben I hope to have it finished early in the new year. mtaylor, Omega1234 and BenF89 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share #441 Posted December 14, 2015 Quill bucket to replace what was going to be the mast bottom/hold down screw. Omega1234, BenF89, avsjerome2003 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share #442 Posted December 21, 2015 As it sits today! Next clear coat and make the eyes for the Bow after that lube the oars and make the carrying case. It's been a long road and I'm almost done. avsjerome2003, Omega1234, captainbob and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share #443 Posted December 21, 2015 More pictures. Tadeusz43, BenF89, mtaylor and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.Coleman Posted December 22, 2015 Share #444 Posted December 22, 2015 I do Like you battering ram! Well done its coming up real good. How long will the battery last for rowing all theses oars? mtaylor and Omega1234 2 Quote Regards, Scott Current build: 1:75 Friesland, Mamoli Completed builds: 1:64 Rattlesnake, Mamoli - 1:64 HMS Bounty, Mamoli - 1:54 Adventure, Amati - 1:80 King of the Mississippi, AL 1:64 Blue Shadow, Mamoli - 1:64 Leida Dutch pleasure boat, Corel - 1:60 HMS President Mantra, Sergal Awaiting construction: 1:89 Hermione La Fayette AL - 1:48 Perserverance, Modelers shipyard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share #445 Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the compliment S.Coleman! I really have no idea how long the battery will last I should start with running it for five minutes then check the charge level or put in a bigger battery, not really sure what direction to go. Edited December 22, 2015 by bensid54 Omega1234 and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega1234 Posted December 22, 2015 Share #446 Posted December 22, 2015 Hi Willie You're almost done! I've really enjoyed following along, especially watching your videos, so it'll be a shame to see your log end. I gotta admit though, she's looking like she's meant for business with that battering ram. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that. All the best for Christmas and 2016. Cheers Patrick mtaylor 1 Quote MY SCRATCH BUILT MODELS ARE: Splendid Mega Yacht https://modelshipworld.com/topic/28576-splendid-by-omega1234-scale-1500-mega-yacht/ Majestic Mega Yacht https://modelshipworld.com/topic/28483-mega-yacht-majestic-by-omega1234-miniature/ Sapphire Mega yacht https://modelshipworld.com/topic/21088-sapphire-by-omega1234-1388-scale-mega-yacht-66m-8-inch-hull-length/?tab=comments#comment-639898 Genesis - Supersports Mega Yacht https://modelshipworld.com/topic/18168-genesis-by-omega1234-1300-49m-mega-yacht-8-inches-long-finished/?tab=comments#comment-559026http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/14141-shadow-by-omega1234-scale-1300-luxury-60m-mega-yacht-8-inches-long/ SHADOW Luxury Motor Yacht http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/11384-majellan-by-omega1234-luxury-37-metre-motor-yacht-miniature-7-inches-approx/ Majellan Luxury Motor Yacht http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9261Rainbow-j-class-racing-yacht/?p=273543 Rainbow J Class Racing Yacht Mystic Classic Motor Cruiser Symphony Ingomar Schooner: Scratch build Dorade Schooner: <p> Lennox Restoration Warship http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/9577-pandora-cutaway-dockyard-style-miniature/?hl=pandora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share #447 Posted December 22, 2015 Thanks Patrick! I expect to do a couple more videos and there will be more posts. The bulk of those posts will be the finished boat plus the building of the carry case for the Bireme, how it's made what it does and of course a video of the finished Bireme in the pond. I am now building the Bluenose for my wife so I'll likely start a build thread on that. I will be starting the Boat man of the river Styx when the motor arrives and I come up with an idea on how to have him operate a single oar while standing in the stern of his boat. The Boat man will have red LED eyes and below that a Fat Shark camera, I plan on having his head move back and forth and up and down, going to love that build too. mtaylor and Omega1234 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share #448 Posted December 24, 2015 Part way done on the beach or pond carry case I still have some things like the tool box and beach blocks to make and install then paint everything. I'm going to have to bail out my hobby shed to store it in there, the whole package is too big for my place and I'm sure my wife would have something to say about it (when don't they). The "V" shaped beach blocks will be held to the carry case with Velcro and used to set the Bireme on when preparing for launch the tool box will hold the Allen wrench and rack screws. Still more finishing and hopefully it will be complete before I thought it would be. mtaylor, avsjerome2003, captainbob and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbob Posted December 25, 2015 Share #449 Posted December 25, 2015 Nice carrying case. I see lots of fun on the water ahead. Oh ya, don't forget to have extra rack screws with you. You know how easily they can get lost. Bob mtaylor and Omega1234 2 Quote Every build is a learning experience. Current build: SS_ Mariefred Completed builds: US Coast Guard Pequot Friendship-sloop, Schooner Lettie-G.-Howard, Spray, Grand-Banks-dory, a gaff rigged yawl, HOGA (YT-146), Int'l Dragon Class II, Two Edwardian Launches In the Gallery: Catboat, International-Dragon-Class, Spray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bensid54 Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share #450 Posted December 25, 2015 Good point Bob I'll have to dig through my screw supply. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours. Omega1234 and mtaylor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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