Louie da fly

Mark, Yes, the shields hang on the sides. If you look on the first page of this thread, there are a couple of diagrams I've drawn which show them. Unfortunately, I've just realised that hanging them by the enarmes the way I've shown is physically impossible - the enarmes should be slung over the upright, not threaded along the horizontal beam of the pavesade. You'd never get the shields on and off. I haven't yet worked out exactly I'll fix them in place, but I'm sure I'll come up with something. I've never tried sculpy, but I believe without having to cram the cardboard into the boss in the middle, it's likely the dog biscuit card will do the job without crumpling. And the detail is surprisingly good. I've just made a flattish conical shield out of modelling clay and cast it in a plaster mould. Once that's hard, I'll cast a new shield blank made of builder's bog. It's hard and stable enough that I can carve all the detail in it I want - particularly the raised shield rim and perhaps a line to show the (non-raised) boss. And then use it to make a mould out of of builder's bog so I can make all the cardboard shields I want. I've been collecting contemporary pictures of Byzantine shields. At this time they were pretty equally divided between round shields and others which were tear-drop shaped. I'm going for round shields on the dromon (a tear-drop shield wouldn't work on the side of a ship) and I've so far collected over 50 designs, though several of them seem to duplicate each other. I've probably got enough for all the shields to be different from each other. During my shield research I began to notice other things, particularly about the oars shown in contemporary illustrations. I'd based my oar blades on the ones in Age of the Dromon, but on further investigation I believe they aren't a true reflection of the shape of oar-blades of the time. Contemporary illustrations show oars tapered all the way from the handle to the end of the blade. I don't believe the whole loom took part in the taper, but the blade itself may have. This picture is contemporary with the ship I'm making, and I based the shapes of both the dromon's tail and the steering oars on it. I've just noticed, by the way, that the steering oar of the left hand ship appears to show a tiller (though the steersman's not using it). Even taking into account the likelihood of error and carelessness on the part of the artists (and the possibility they may never have really looked at a dromon's oar-blade), I still feel it's the best representation we have. Lacking any definite evidence to the contrary I've decided to taper my oar blades. I'm changing the ones I've already made and will make the next ones to the new shape (only 82 to go!). Here's a pic of the old and new shape together.

I've just spent about a week literally going around in circles (pun intended) making shields for the sides of the ship. I decided that I didn't want to carve 50 shields. Byzantine shields in contemporary representations are routinely either the shape of a bowl with the inside toward the holder or a very shallow cone and carving 50 of them would be just too much hard work. Ideally I'd make them of wood, but as a shield of the time was usually about 7mm (a little over 1/4") thick, it was totally unrealistic. So I decided to carve a single shield and cast from that in some suitable material that would be light and strong, probably paper or cardboard, or perhaps papier mache'. I also thought of using builder's filler, but for various reasons (including wastage every time you mix up a batch) I decided against it. I decided to make the shield bowl-shaped. The shields I was accustomed to using in my mediaeval re-enactment days had a hole in the middle covered by a bowl-shaped central iron boss, which encloses and protects the hand so you can grip the shield by a rigid handle across the hole. This puts your hand in the same plane as the body of the shield, so your control is better than if the handle was offset. Here is the shield in the process of being carved out. I used pear wood, as it has a nice fine grain. And here it is complete. But I shouldn't have made my mould out of plaster of Paris. Trouble is, that stuff is too soft to take repeated castings without deteriorating to the point that all useful detail would be lost. So I decided to change tack and make the mould of builder's filler instead. But as the wooden original had curled up at the edges when it got wet, I couldn't use it again. So I cast another on in the plaster mould, using builder's "bog" (filler) - wonderful stuff - hard and strong and durable, and makes a beautifully detailed casting. An hour or so later I tried to take the new shield 'blank' out of the plaster. Couldn't do it without breaking the mould, but as I wasn't going to use it any more, that was ok. Then I made a new mould out of goopy builder's bog and put the shield in face down. I'd covered the shield with shoe polish first, to stop the casting from adhering to the mould. It worked well - there's a small nick in one edge of the blank where I had to put a blade in to get leverage, but that's all. Then I tried making shields. I used thin card to approximate a 7mm edge, but it crumpled in the mould, even though I'd wet it first. Next I used card from the box the dog biscuits came in. Pretty good, but still a bit of crumpling, so it ended up with a groove from the centre to the outside edge. It's possible that with care and practice I might be able to overcome this problem. I also tried papier mache', using damp shredded paper and a bit of PVA glue. It filled the mould all right and came out ok, but didn't have the quality of detail the dog biscuit card had provided. From left to right - the builder's bog 'blank', the mould, dog biscuit shield and papier mache' Then I took a break overnight, and as I lay awake it came to me. I'd got the shield wrong! I looked again at the Byzantine shields I had pictures of. They didn't have a boss sticking out of the surface of the shield. Because Byzantine shields, without exception, were controlled not by a rigid handle as the Viking, Anglo-Saxon and other West European shields were, but by enarmes - short leather or rope loops attached to the back of the shield. You grab both enarmes in one hand and control the shield that way. Having used both techniques I can say I'd far rather use the handle, but that's not the point. With enarmes, you don't need the a hole in the middle of the shield or a boss sticking out of it. So I'm back to square one. I'll make a new shield blank (this time as a shallow cone). And it won't have that boss sticking out. I know if I had kept it as it was hardly anybody would have known. But I would. Steven

Very nice, Dick. It's very enjoyable following this build.

That is such a beautiful vessel, and so beautifully done. I'd go for tossed oars if we're voting. But you'd need a crew . . . It is possible to make or carve crewmembers - whether from wood or other materials. But it would add to the job - you'd need a dozen of them, and then that would mean you'd also need a steersman, so that makes 13 - or 14 with a passenger . . . it all starts becoming a bit much. I enjoyed carving the crewman for my own build, and I'll be making maybe another 3 or 4 from scratch, but once it gets up to those kinds of numbers it stops being fun and becomes a bit of a chore. Steven

Just a thought - an 18th century American would have had very little accurate idea of what a Sultana looked like. Anything exotic would probably have been good enough - possible involving flowing garments and some kind of turban? Possibly something like the first and third ladies at http://thestreetballet.tumblr.com/post/57090904732/asianhistory-question-asks-hi-mrms-mod (warning - the second lady is NSFW)

Timmo, that's a beautiful build. I look forward to seeing her completed and in the water. Any chance of a video when the time comes? Those masts look very tall to fit in a car. How are you going to transport the model? Steven

A fascinating model, but I have to know - what is an Elven Prayer ship? A ship elves pray in? Or have I missed the point completely? Steven

A beautiful job. Also nice to see your sailmaking has Royal approval. Steven

I dips me lid, sir. What a marvellous exhibition of skill and precision. Steven

Druxey, I agree - your version is far more informative and I believe gets across what a truly miserable day it must have been. There are similarities, but quite significant differences as well. I find the sterns of the barges absolutely fascinating. Without a real-world example to compare them to, it would be hard to believe these were accurate representations of actual vessels. What conceivable purpose would a stern like that serve? Steven

Beautiful precision work, Glenn. This is the original steampunk. It is fascinating watching this build progress. (On a totally different subject, I've sent you a PM relating to the Glass Wreck.) Steven

Here are the frames I've made so far. It's interesting that even though they're supposed to be progressively narrower as they progress towards the ends from amidships, they seem to be anything but consistent in shape. However, I believe this is because of variations in the wood and the conditions under which it was clamped into place. In any event, the springiness of the wood will enable them to return to their correct shape once they're in place on the plug and held in with planking and wales. The hard part was getting the wood to bend around a quite sharp corner at the futtock. Once that's been achieved the rest should follow without too much trouble (I hope). Steven

Thought this might be of interest. As far as I know, it's a contemporary picture of Nelson's funeral procession down the Thames. Not very accurate representations of the barges, but it might contain some useful details, and a bit of an insight into the spectacle on the river. You can see what I think must be the barge carrying The Body on the far left, draped in a Union Jack. [edit] No, I think I'm wrong - it's the one bottom centre with the crown on top of the canopy and another on top of the coffin. I think I can see Hornblower at the tiller, too . . . Unfortunately I don't know where it came from. It's in an old book on Nelson, and is unattributed. (Sorry about the fold in the middle). Steven

Thanks for the advice. I'll do a little experimenting before I commit myself to doing it on the model itself. I'm also a little concerned that the frames fit too tightly in the grooves at the moment and might not lift out cleanly when it's all glued up. So I need to look at that as well and sort it out before the gluing stage. And then there's the issue of sequencing - obviously the frames have to go in place before I glue the keel to them, but what about the wales? I had in mind to put the top wale and one of the lower wales on before I started planking, to hold the frames together and in their correct shape. I THINK I should do that after the keel, but I'm still trying to think it through to make sure I don't paint myself into a corner. Steven

I’m afraid the plug isn’t very pretty – in fact it’s quite messy; the result of a series of trial and error attempts to get the spacing of the frames right and work out the lines the wales need to follow. I’m very much learning as I go along. However, it’s not the plug that needs to look good – just the ship itself. I’ve sanded the first crew member down smooth and made him look quite respectable – except for one hand. The idea is for him to be standing on deck holding onto a shroud, and I’m not going to finalise that until the ship has reached the point of having shrouds so I can get his hand the right shape. I've also got to tidy up his feet and check that he stands properly. I’ve made 13 oars so far, but it’s quite likely I’ll have to discard several as I’m not happy with how they turned out. Though I made the first ones too thick, I can shave them down and get them right. But some I either made in too much of a hurry or too carelessly and they are out of round and can’t be fixed. It just means it’ll take longer to finish them all off. I initially had a problem with keeping tabs on which frames went where. They are so thin that you can’t write on them, so I worked out that I could make little name tags for them and tie them on with cotton thread. Seems to work ok. Once they're all bent to shape I can put them in place and start gluing everything together (at last!) Druxey, I looked at those saws and though they’re very attractive I’m not likely to be able to justify getting one. I’m doing this all on a shoestring – I even thought twice about spending 9 dollars on a couple of clamps. Additionally, now I’ve got cutting out the frames down to a system, it all works very well, and I’m enjoying doing it. It probably takes marginally longer than sawing them out, but that’s ok. My major goal at the moment is to finish all the frames to go in the plug, put them in place and glue the keel, wales and planks to them. I had a problem with keeping the glue from sticking the frames to the plug – the grooves in the plug are too thin for beeswax and I don’t want to use oil in case it soaks into the frames and makes them reject the glue. So I had the bright idea of making up a ‘slurry’ of soap and water and painting that into the grooves. Once it dries out it should coat the grooves and the plug with a thin film of soap, which should reject the glue but not soak into the frames. I hope so, anyway. Steven

Lovely work, Druxey.

Very impressive.

A nice piece of work, Dick. I never cease to be impressed by your insight into what, to me, are mysterious or even meaningless details in old pictures, and your ability to turn them into parts of the ship which in hindsight are obviously what the picture represented. It's the old "I should have thought of that!" moment. I wonder if a ship up on the slipway like that might not have had the preventers removed, so they wouldn't appear in Trombetta's picture. Steven

Oh, I intend to. But currently the budget won't allow it. There are a number of tools I'd dearly like to have - including a drill press, a scroll saw, even a normal bench saw, a small lathe and others I'd normally consider impossible to do without. But they'll just have to wait until I can afford to get them. In the meantime I just have to get a bit inventive and work around what is lacking. And by the way, thanks for the compliment. To have you call me a serious modeller I consider high praise indeed. And thanks everybody for all the 'likes'. Steven

No, I don't have any of these, but maybe I should check them out. Here's some photos I didn't get the chance to put up in my previous post, by the way. Two frames clamped in place: from above: and from below: And the first of two steering oars - I made it in two pieces. I cut the blade then drilled holes in a line and turned them into a slot that the loom would fit into and the completed steering oar. A neater job than if I'd tried to carve it from a single piece of wood. Plus the oars I've made to date.

I've had to widen and deepen the grooves in the plug for the frames. They weren't sitting in the grooves properly and were twisting. I've made maybe half a dizen frames so far a d I've started to develop a systematic way of making them after a lot Iif trial and error. My first problem was how to cut the frames from 1mm thick wood and make them 1mm wide all the way along their length without the wood shifting under the steel rule as I cut along it. I finally discovered two important lessons. First, only make the frame a little longer than its final length. That way it doesn't move so easily when you cut it. Secondly, just scire along the cut line to start with. This gives the blade a groove to follw when you cut deeper. I usually get the frame fully cut off in three or four passes of a Stanley knife and it follows the line well. I bought some light clamps to keep the frames in place in the grooves while they dry, and I've discovered that one hour in cold water is enough to make them sufficiently supple to follow the curve without breaking.

This is a magnificent build, Druxey. It shows what can be done and gives us all a standard to aim for. Very inspirational. Steven

Zeh, I'd like to send you the link to the discussion about the Mary Rose but I don't have access to a computer - only my phone. But if you do a search on Msry Rose forecastle on MSW you'll find it and links to some more sites with portolans. By the way if you want to see the Calicut Tapestry (and I can recommend it) do a google image search for Vasco da Gama tapestry and you should be able to find it. Apparently there were a series of tapestries made to commemorate the voyage. I think only one of them shows the ships. By the way, am I right in thinking Vasco means Basque? If so, maybe it wad a nickname - 'the Basque guy'. The reason I'm interested is that fir some reason the Basques seem to have been at the cutting edge of ship design at the time - they seem to crop up everywhere. And it was a very exciting time. In few short decades they progressed from simply rigged single masted, relatively small ships to (relatively) huge complex 3 and 4 masters capable of travelling anywhere. I've got huge respect for the shipwrights of the time. They were true pioneers,equally worthy of respect with the great artists and architects who were their contemporaries. Speaking of caravels, a guy here in Australia, about an hours drive from where I live, has built a reconstruction of a caravel and sails it around. There's a legend here that a wreck found in the sands 150 or so years ago and then reburied by the sand was from a Portuguese expedition which got as far as Warrnambool on our south coast in the early 16th century and mapped it but turned back aftet one of the ships was wrecked. People have been searching for this wreck, the so-called Mahogany Ship, even as recently as a couple of years ago with echo-locators, but with no success. Fascinating- it'd be great if they found it - but if it turned out to be something ordinary and boring we'd have lost one of our local legends. So I don't know if I really want it to be found . . . Steven

Well, only 87 oars to go, and I've started on the frames. There is quite a sharp corner at the futtock and I kept breaking the frames trying to bend them around it. I finally tried boiling a frame in water for half an hour then left it in the water for another two and a half hours and it worked beautifully. Then I discovered I could get the same result soaking in cold water for 3 hours. So I'm on my way. I clamped the frame to the groove I'd cut in the plug overnight and it came out beautifully. Now to cut another 18 or so to put on the plug and plank over. The current plan is to put the other 106 frames in after the planking is finished. Oh, and I think I've worked out how to make the oarsmen without having to carve 50 of them individually. No photos at the moment I'm afraid. Steven

In 'Hornblower and the Atropos' C.S. Forester describes (probably not from personal experience, though may have gone and looked at them in the museum) being in charge of one of these barges as part if Nelson's funeral procession. From his description I got the impression they were considerably bigger and heavier - but the barge in question WAS loaded up with The Body in its heavy coffin. However accurate, it nakes a good read.