Louie da fly

Thanks for all the info on dromons. And Dick, sorry for derailing this thread - getting back to the subject, I just remembered a link I have to a site on the early 15th century ship designer Michael of Rhodes, containing a facsimile of his manuscript, complete with theoretical diagrams and a number of pics, including one of a carrack. You can find it here. Steven

Oh, and of course the Henry Grace a Dieu itself was really just a carrack with delusions of grandeur. Yes, considering nobody really knows exactly what they looked like, contemporary pictures are sketchy and stylised, and the author of the best surviving contemporary description was no seaman, and was more concerned with showing off his classical Greek scholarship than in describing the ships in use at the time. Much of his description relates to ancient Greek galleys from 1200 years earlier! Fortunately in 2004 during railway excavations in the suburb of Yenikapi in Istanbul, where Constantinople's Harbour of Theodosius had once been, the remains of 37 shipwrecks from the 5th to 11th centuries AD were discovered. A few of these were military galleys - the largest being a galea, the next step down from a dromon. Unfortunately, only the hull below the waterline was preserved. So how a dromon actually looked and worked is still largely a mystery.(sigh) I've been collecting information for some time, as many contemporary pictures as I can, papers on modern theoretical reconstructions etc so I can work up my own reconstruction when the time comes. It's all part of the fun. I'm sure you'll get around to finishing it off eventually. One for the back burner. And I only just realised Le Gros Ventre is one of yours, too. I've been following that one with great interest. Great stuff. Look forward to seeing your progress.

Lots of things. I'm just getting bck into ship modelling after several decades. I have a POB model of Henry VIII's Henry Grace a Dieu which I made in the 1960's when I was in my teens, based on the reconstruction in Bjorn Landstrom's book The Ship. I pulled the stern off when I realised it was wrong, and never got back to it. So fixing it up will be my first project, and then I have quite a number of possibles lined up - perhaps a carrack or a cog or a Byzantine dromon, I'm just not sure. But first the admiral and I have to finish renovating the house - so everything's on hold till then (sigh). Steven

Thanks. That's very useful. I'll have to add them to my "must buy" list. Steven

Yes, that looks really good - and I believe the extra hull volume at the bow would give extra buoyancy there, and make the ship perform better in a sea (though I'm no expert on these matters). Looks very much like the shape on the Mataro ship as well. I'm fascinated by the documentation you cite - I hadn't heard of it before. I'm still very much a beginner in research on this subject (but very keen!) Though the pictorial record is useful as a back-up, it's of course not as reliable due to artistic licence, and it doesn't contain all that many actual side elevations of carracks - very often they're viewed from slightly sternward, which distorts the proportions. However, the Beauchamp Pageant and the Spanish(?) carracks on the previous page of this thread have very good side elevations, and they show a stempost very much of the shape of your latest version, (though of course they have to be taken with a pinch of salt when thinking about Venetian carracks). Looking good. Steven

Very happy with the sternpost; it was the stempost I was wondering about. But if (as I suppose)you worked that out the same way I blushingly withdraw the question. You've obviously done your homework very well indeed. Steven

Yes. Though rigging for this period is a fascinating (and largely unknown) subject, it doesn't come till quite a way down the track - the first thing is to get the hull made. Just a point with the hull shape - I was wondering if the stempost mightn't have a bit too much rake? The original picture you're taking your model from is seen from slightly sternwards and that always exaggerates the rake of the stem, just as a bow-on view makes it look less. Just a suggestion, and feel free to ignore it if you disagree.

That ship is a thing of beauty. Yes, TAMU's site is a wonderful resource. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have looked at standing and running rigging. There may be better books out there, but Wolfram zu Mondfeld's Historic Ship Models contains the best outline I've yet seen of the evolution and development of ships' rigging in the period we're interested in. He gives rough dates for when certain features appeared (such as deadeyes for the topmast shrouds, backstays for upper masts etc). However, even the information he provides is a bit thin, probably because there's so little of it around. And as his source is probably the same we're working off - contemporary pictures - he should be used as a guide only, and only as a general picture. If you have information more specifically appropriate to your own model, it should probably take precedence. You can get the book from abebooks second hand for not too much (it's quicker from the UK than from the US). If you like I can PM you photocopies of a few relevant pages. Steven

I don't know if this is any help, but there's a paper here by Texas A&M University, reconstructing the sail plan of a Portuguese nau. Though the ship in question sank in 1606 their supportive documentation goes back to 1500 and may be useful. It's sails only, however, not rigging as such. There's an accompanying paper reconstructing the hull here

You're right! I hadn't noticed that. Interesting. yes, though the Reixach is also very good. Sounds very good. I await developments with interest. Steven

I found some more information trawling the Net, and particularly contemporary pictures of carracks, which might help with rigging if you decide to go that way. I got most of them from a flickr collection put together by a computer gamer called ModernKnight1. It's a mixed bag, and I've picked the eyes out of it - including (as far as I can judge)only actual contemporary representations appropriate to your model and leaving out later copies, reconstructions etc. I have to hand it to ModernKnight1 for persistence and dedication. That's a heck of a collection of stuff and his site's well worth a visit. Several pictures of Mediterranean carracks of the mid-late 15th century show what appear to be small groups of ratlines at intervals up the shrouds. No use as ladders, but perhaps to keep the shrouds together? Jonah and the whale (date and source unknown) has them, as does Modern Knight 1's "Unknown Carrack 3" (the text is in German, but the flags are crescent moons - perhaps supposed to be a Turkish ship? "Venice carracks", which appears to be a detail from de Barberi's view of Venice have them as well. Reixach's St Ursula retable (Catalan, 1468)doesn't show them, and neither does another of Carpaccio's St Ursula series - the departure of the pilgrims (partenza dei pellegrini). Modern Knight 1's "Carracks in Venice" hasn't enough detail to be certain if they're there or not. The Venetian woodcut of the 1499 Battle of Zonchio doesn't show them, either. There are some other worthwhile representations of carracks in Modern Knight 1's site, all with conventional ratlines, such as two which appear to be Spanish if the banners at the mastheads show (as they appear to) the coat of arms of the combined kingdoms of Castile and Leon. Lacking any other identification I've called them "Modern Knight1 Unknown Carracks 4 and 4A". And then there's the wierd ones; I think they're simply bad art, and not very good representations (or in one case a really bad one) of contemporary carracks, but they may contain useful information. I hope this is of use in your model. I've certainly had fun chasing it all up. Just love those carracks! Steven

Happy to help. Though the Beaumont stuff is is a record of happenings some decades earlier, the pics date from about 1485, and I think we can safely assume the artist portrayed ships of his own time rather than those of a few decades earlier. When I first looked at it I thought there were only about 3 or 4 pics in it, but on looking at it again I realised I'd missed a lot on my first view. I agree the detail is very convincing and I'm prepared to accept it as an accurate depiction of what was actually used at the time. Here's a link to a contemporary picture of Venetian and Turkish carracks in battle in 1499, which has some interesting details. And a bowl from Moorish Spain c. 1450 here and the bottom picture here I also did a quick image search for Jacopo de Barbari's view of Venice of 1500, from which Landstrom got one of his reconstructions - you can see the results here. Didn't have time to go to all the websites shown, but you might find one that blows up enough to give good details of ships. Some examples I was able to find are here, and a detail photo of one of the original wood blocks here. Your model is nothing short of magnificent. Keep up the good work.

I had a look at the Landstro"m book last night. It really is an excellent book, but there's not all that much about Mediterranean carracks of the time you're interested in. Maybe there's very little extant information available at all. But one thing is that in the Mediterranean they were quite late putting ratlines in the shrouds - your model is probably from around about the time of transition. So rather than ratlines, perhaps just a single rope ladder per mast. I'll see what else I can find out.

The engraver Master W.A. (Willem A. Cruces, ca. 1468) can be very useful for rigging, though as he was based in Flanders it's a moot point how much of the rigging he shows is appropriate to Venice. this link is to a pdf on the rigging in his engravings and those of others. WARNING - it's at least 10 MB of download. There's also the ships of the Beauchamp Pageant (English, about the same time)shown here. Unfortunately the pictures are extremely faint, but there is a good zoom function and you can get pretty good detail despite the faintness. You can see ships at pages 17,19,29,31,45,49,51,71,73,97 and 99. Again, perhaps not appropriate to Venice. I've also attached a few contemporary pictures that may be of help. Unfortunately the tapestry of Vasco da Gama's arrival in India was done not in Portugal (which might have helped with Mediterranean rigging) but in Tournai in Flanders. I'm going to have a look at my copy of Landstro"m's The Ship. I'm pretty sure it has more pics of Mediterranean vessels of the the right period which might be of help.

There's something enchanting about a carrack. A much under-represented form, in my opinion. You can keep your clippers and frigates; I don't think you can go past a carrack for a sort of ungainly elegance. Reconstructing the shape using only contemporary representations is difficult but rewarding. It really looks good - keep up the good work.

Nice work, Matt. That looks very like the Oseberg ship, the burial ship of Queen Asa, dating to the 9th century AD. You can find a lot of detail on her (the ship, that is) if you do a google image search on "Oseberg Ship", including how she looked when she was first unearthed in 1904 and how she looks now. Though not necessary to your own model, the original Oseberg Ship had the most amazingly complex and intricate carving on the stem and sternposts - well worth a look (and a bit of a drool). The archaeological reports on the ship are also available. I'm in Victoria and I'm told the State Library here has a copy for referral (but not for loan). I don't know what State you live in but it might also have the reports. The title is something like "Osebergfundet", andI think it is in several parts, covering the ship itself, the artefacts found aboard etc (including a tent frame and a wheeled cart)

Thanks everyone. That was pretty much what I'd thought, but the belaying point for Number 1 was further forward than I expected. For number 3, I hadn't thought of bowlines -that makes a lot of sense. Interestingly, the rigging on the ships in the painting http://www.royalcollection.org.uk/collection/405793/the-embarkation-of-henry-viii-at-dover'> "The Embarkation of Henry VIII at Dover", showing pretty much the same ships as on the Anthony Roll, is quite different. Much more complex tackles. And though the painting depicts something that happened in 1520, 26 years before the Anthony Roll, it's now thought to have been painted in the 1540's or so, after the Great Harry and the Mary Rose had major rebuilds. So you'd expect the rigging to be the same. But who knows - the artist in the Dover Embarktion shows the Great Harry with a huge square course on the mizzen instead of a lateen, so who knows how accurae he got the rest of the picture. Any comments on whether or not the line to the outrigger is for the lateen mizzen sheet?

Can anybody help me work out what the tackles are that I’ve circled? They’re on the picture of the Matthew in the Anthony Roll of 1545. I’m new to rigging and have looked through several books, including “Rigging Period Ship Models” by Lennarth Petersson and “Historic Ship Models” by Wolfram zu Mondfeld and I haven’t seen any rigging quite the same as these. No. 1 - there are two tackles leading down from the maintop - one just above the yellow and black striped flag and another similar one to the right of it – the lines lead down to the break of the forecastle. I think they must be what zu Mondfeld describes on his pages 278-9 as main tackles – for lifting cargo, boats etc. However I’m not sure that’s what they are, as I haven’t seen any running at that angle and ending up at the break of the forecastle. I think no. 2 has the same function – there are two blocks with lines leading down to deck level immediately in front of the main mast - you can see them just below the top of the red circle. No. 3 - there seem to be two lines down forward from the foremast – one from the masthead and the other starting halfway between the masthead and the foretop, which lead to blocks attached to the foretopmast stay, then to blocks attached to the bowsprit and then back to the forecastle. Any ideas? No. 4 – Am I right in thinking the line leading to the outrigger at the stern is the sheet of the bonaventure mizzen’s furled lower lateen sail? I realize this is from a drawing done by someone who may not have understood rigging, and could be quite wrong. But the same features appear on all the larger ships in the Anthony Roll, and he seems to have the rest of the rigging pretty right – even to the clew lines with martnets on the (furled) yards of the main square sails. Has anybody come across these items before or know what they might be? Are they perhaps a particularly Tudor sort of rigging which had disappeared by the time the examples in the books above? I’d like to include them in a model, but I want to be happy they represent something that actually existed.