Roger Pellett

in reading MSW build logs for kit built models I find that builders often get concerned with details. This seems to be especially true with rigging. Almost never does the builder seem to be concerned with what should be the question to be asked before buying the kit in the first place: ”If I build this kit will it accurately reproduce the lines (shape) of the actual vessel’s hull?” In the past, some kit manufacturers were, putting it politely, “casual” concerning this. This could be particularly true of Clippers as overlooked subtle differences between different vessels could still allow models of different ships to both look impressive. There was also a tendency by manufacturers to save money by widely spacing bulkheads, supposedly solved by the ubiquitous double planking. The manufacturers of POB ship model kits seem to have upped their game in the past few years and several offer kits that can produce accurate and stunning models. I would, therefore, be cautious about buying an old kit. Many kit builders also have a stash of kits that they intend to build someday. These stashes can represent many lifetimes of ship model building. My stash is not ship model kits but books. I have shelves of books for researching projects that I was once excited about building but now realize won’t get built. My advice to you: Finish the project(s) that you are now working on, and take satisfaction on jobs well done. Then decide what you want to build based on skills and interests at that time. Meanwhile save your £100. Roger

Hopefully not your last!

If you have already done so, I highly recommend that you get or borrow a copy of the book Coffins of the Brave. Edited by Kevin Crisman it includes chapters on the archeological evidence from each of the wrecked American and British warships found on the Great Lakes and Lake Champlain. In most cases he includes drawings reconstructed from this evidence. You should be able to borrow a copy via inter-library loan as I found half a dozen via WorldCat in Colorado libraries. The University of Denver has a copy. The value of this book is that it includes information on many smaller ships built in a frontier setting. While the bows always seem to be missing from the wreckage there are a couple of examples where remnants of cant frames exist. Roger

Our local Solid Waste Disposal Site, aka “The Dump” has a large section where visitors can take away items thrown away by others. The stuff is free. They have one entire building full of furniture. Next time I go there I’ll have to see if I can find any mahogany. It’s probably all veneer but Duluth does have a large number of old very large homes, once residences to wealthy families, so maybe I’ll strike gold. Roger

I don’t know what your artistic vision is for this model but if it is to accurately show hull structure, framing, deck beams, etc. I’m sure that you realize that the vessels built to defend the American Lakes were not built to British dockyard standards. I have read that Noah Brown was told by one of the naval commanders that Lake vessels only needed to be capable of winning one battle. For example, Brown sandwiched Eagle’s deck beams between two deck clamps and omitted all knees. As a consequence Eagle was built in a few weeks and was able to take part in the battle to prevent the British from invading via Lake Champlain. Cant frames should be as simple as possible. Also, Noah Brown had no need to conserve lumber. Another possibility would be to “ghost” this unknown area. This could be done by substituting a different construction technique; even a solid shaped block. These are suggestions offered because you are still in the design stage. In the end, it’s your model of an interesting subject. Roger

Some different advice: Assuming that you have access to a basic collection of hand tools and know how to use them, your first model should be the one that you really want to build; kit or scratch it really doesn’t matter. Plodding thru a beginner kit that does not interest you will not increase your interest in the hobby. It is my opinion that .most ship modeling projects are abandoned when the builder loses interest not because they are too difficult. I likewise, do not see plastic modeling as an entry to building wooden models. Plastic modeling appears to have reached a level of sophistication where it can stand on its own as a separate modeling experience. While I don’t personally build plastic models, I enjoy scanning the threads posted for both ship and aircraft plastic models. Much of the work is incredible. Another entry point would be the series of kits developed and sold directly by the Nautical Research Guild. So far they offer three modeling kits: A planking model, A capstan model, and coming soon a rigging model. These are short term projects that would give the novice builder a taste for ship modeling without a making a major time or cost commitment. Roger

My “Nobody” was an exaggeration. Of course there are steam ships still operating today. There’s about half a dozen still sailing here on the lakes although one fleet (Interlake) has been converting their’s to diesel. And was earlier pointed out to me, there are special situations such as LNG vessels where Steam make sense by utilizing otherwise vented natural gas. If I remember correctly, the ships in the MSC reserve fleet include high speed steamships “inherited” from US Container operators who found them to be uneconomical. The bunker C comment is that of Marine Engineering experts at the University of Michigan. It’s cheaper because it’s a residual fuel left over from the refining process. As such, it has a lot of undesirable pollutants, notably sulfur. A factor not discussed is engine room manning. World War II Navy ships had large crews, and I would assume that this would include those in the engine rooms and fire rooms. 25 years ago, there was a move by two Great Lakes Steamship operators, the ex US Steel Great Lakes Fleet and Interlake to automate the 1950’s vintage steam plants in their ships. I had some very minor involvement in this effort. I met one of Interlake’s vessels when it arrived at Two Harbors, MN to load ore in order to figure out the piping changes that would be required. I believe that one ex US Steel Ship, The Calaway? was converted. Interlake, chose instead to convert to diesel. Great Lakes vessels have one fire room and one engine room. United States has several of each. Her operators would, therefore, be faced with either a huge automation project or sailing with a large engine room/ fire room crew. With the exception of special situation vessels, the question is would anyone invest a huge amount of money to build a new steamship or revive a 1950’s era one sailing under US Flag rules to compete with foreign flagged passenger vessels. I don’t think so. Roger

Bill, thank you for your service! I’m always a little embarassed when people say that to me. Compared to people of my age slogging through jungles, or serving at sea, my service was more like a (good) Govt. job. aaRoger

I know a little about the “preserved ship biz” here in the USA having worked for 10+ years as a volunteer to prepare National Historic Landmark Status (NHL) documentation for the Whaleback Steamship Meteor. In the end I was unsuccessful as a new executive director arrived on the scene (previous experience running the local zoo!) and didn’t bother to submit the material on to the necessary people. NHL status is the gold standard for US Government recognition of things historic. It is, therefore, the door thru which any federal financial support much pass. The program is administered by the National Park Service who publish complex guidelines for the program. A couple of salient points: First, the project should (must?) have a connection to an important historic thread, and of course the authors of the guidelines did not include the history of technology as being one of these! Second, and more relevant to USS Constitution, applicants are required to determine a “period of significance” to which the object will be restored. Things that cannot be restored to this state usually do not qualify for NHL status. As Henry points out, USS Constitution is a commissioned US Navy warship. Because of this the NHL program does not apply to her. She gets her funding as a line item in the Defense Department’s annual budget. She is Public Relations asset for the US Navy and a large majority of the people who see her probably have no interest in understanding her historic accuracy or lack thereof. In my opinion this should not prevent the Navy from developing a plan to determine a period of significance to which the ship should be restored. This would include replacement of Mid Nineteenth Century and later features in favor of those associated with her service in the War of 1812 or the Barbary Wars. This would include replacement of her head, some bulwarks, and stern decorations. Note, the presence of original structure or lack thereof is not a major NHL criteria. It would seem that the Royal Navy Museum is doing better with HMS Victory as they seem to be making a real effort to return her to appearance when she fought at Trafalgar. Roger

Exactly, my USNavy experience was 4 years as a junior officer working as a Naval Reactors Engineer. Yes, the famous or infamous “NR.” All experience was with submarine reactor plants: S1W, S2W, S3/4W and after Bettis Reactor Engineering School, S5W. I also spent time at the D1G prototype so am familiar with that plant too. I was disappointed when cost considerations required abandonment of nuclear surface ships other than the large carriers. I know little about Savannah’s plant except that it was a pressurized water reactor. There has been a significant development that could change the economics of nuclear ship propulsion; the “life of the ship” core. As you know refuelings were costly, complicated, and lengthy and were originally required every couple of years. The navy now uses technology to produce reactor cores that do not have to be refueled during the vessel’s expected lifetime. While this might cause the navy to eventually take a look at other combatants, the business model for merchant shipping is a race to the bottom when it comes to cost. This would preclude hiring the highly educated and trained crews that have and still do man the US Navy’s nuclear powered ships. Roger

The NMM branch in Falmouth is nice to visit. I was there in 1918 and was interested to see the Titanic Lifeboat replica recently built in their shop. Your B25 model reminds me of the book Catch 22. The guys in the book were flying B25’s from a base in Italy and the Catch22 referred to some crazy ( I don’t remember the details) rule #22 that ensured that they could never fly the required missions to go home. My son recently inherited a scrapbook from someone in his wife’s family who flew in a B25 squadron based in Italy. It is remarkable as it includes bomb aerial photos and maps for each mission flown. He really needs to find someone knowledgeable to evaluate it. Roger

I receive a quarterly magazine from the Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering Department at the University of Michigan. As might be expected published by a university it is heavily slanted towards current issues and research. Advances in Naval Architecture are often incremental. Marine Engineering on the other had as undergone a series of distinct changes: Introduction of Steam Propulsion Compound Steam Engines Steam Turbines Diesel Engines Unmanned engine rooms/ direct bridge control Gas Turbines (Naval Vessels) Nuclear Power (Submarines) Each of these technologies did not emerge fully developed. For example, the first steam turbines were connected directly to the ships propellers. A machine that operates best at high speed was attempting to drive one intended to run at low speed. It took 15-20 years to adopt the geared cross compounded system used by the US Navy during World War II. The machinery in United States is the end point of this mature steam turbine technology. When I went to school, Marine Engineering involved designing a unique steam plant to fit within the confines of a hull designed by the Naval Architects. The switch to diesel engines for propulsion of much of the world’s merchant vessel tonnage and gas turbines for naval vessels changed all this. The Naval Architects sometimes joked that marine engineering had become a “catalog punching job.” Marine Engineering I now back in the news with a lot of questions to be answered. Among these are: How to eliminate residual oil fuels How to best utilize hydrogen as a fuel Electric propulsion and hybrid electric propulsion Even Nuclear merchant ship propulsion and sail assist These ideas are obviously not all applicable to large ships traveling long distances and some are maybe just Pie in the Sky, but the point is that United States’ machinery is seriously out of date and pollution from shipboard commerce is now considered to be a major environmental problem. Even if her owners could strike a deal with KFC to burn their used frying oil in their boilers, major changes to her machinery would be required with the possibility of completely new power plant. This alone would probably preclude her return to service. Roger

Not an exact answer to your question but the US Navy’s Ordinance Instructions include a detailed inventory of equipment to be carried aboard ships’ boats. You can find copies on the internet. The list is quite extensive and differs for different boat types. It also depends on how you intend to display the boats on your model. For example, the mid Nineteenth Century US Navy did not stow a lot of equipment in boats when aboard ship. Spars were stowed in hammock boxes atop bulwarks and sails kept below decks. The ordinance instructions also specify the various petty officers responsible for loading particular pieces of gear prior to the boat’s launch. It was also US Navy practice to designate one boat as a “lifeboat,” usually a seaworthy type; a cutter or a whaleboat. The purpose of this boat was to recover a man overboard. This would have been hung in davits for quick launch and equipped differently than boats stowed on board. It is a common misconception that the primary use for boats stowed on board was to save the ship’s crew in the event of shipwreck. The reality is that these boats were workboats carried to assist the ship in restricted waters and/or to extend the ship’s mission. Unless hung in davits, launching was a major shipboard evolution not done quickly. There was ample time to bring items needed from elsewhere in the ship. Roger

Well, in a very broad sense, she has always been effectively USS. She was conceived by Gibbs in the 1920’s but it took another 25 years or so to get her built. This required a huge amount of congressional lobbying and justification as a high speed troop transport in time of war. This allowed her to receive large US Government construction and operating subsidies. Each year while operating, her owners (United States Lines) prepared a cost analysis separating operating costs associated with her troop ship features. Most of these involved her propulsion plant. These were paid by the government. Roger

These Art Girona figures are well done. I like Indian Army subjects and would love their Mounted Corps of Guides figure. Maybe someday. I have a simple method for mounting 54mm figures to paint: A small block of wood glued to the bottom of the base of the figure with Duco Cement. when the figure is done an Xacto knife or palette knife slid between the figure base and wood block separates it easily. Roger

Micha, et all: Some thoughts from a modeler who doesn’t use CAD. CAD is not necessary for building ship models. There are 1000’s of lovely accurate ship models built before CAD. The basic scratch ship modeling drafting task is to convert archival information into patterns that define the shape of the hull. This information comes from a drawing, a half model, or a table of offsets. For Nineteenth Century vessels and ships built to about 1970 hulls were not designed using simple geometric shapes. Curves are the result of two different drafting techniques; ships curves, and splines. Splines work by the rules for deflection of beams; a cubic equation. Ships curves are standardized drafting tools created using different mathematical functions. How well a particular CAD program mimics these manual drafting tools well determine the accuracy of the model. As a Naval Architecture student a long time ago, I watched a visiting Professor from a Major Japanese university test several hull forms modeled from simple trigonometric shapes, sines, cosines, parabolas, etc. in our large towing tank. They looked nothing like real ships. All ship hull lines drawings are “faired” at one time or another. In other words, plotted points often do not line up to allow a fair curve to be passed through. Manual drafting requires the draftsman to use his judgement to correct this. CAD requires either manual intervention or a mathematical algorithm. There is therefore, no definitive example of an old ship’s hull, only different interpretations. To me CAD is just another ship modeling tool. If you enjoy working with computers and are willing to spend the $$$ and especially time to learn the program that’s fine. On the other hand, beautiful models can be built using manual drafting techniques, or purchased plans. Roger

I have a Sherline Lathe with a milling column. It is a well made machine. I am glad that I bought it. The milling column fitted with Sherline’s sensitive drilling attachment is by far the best way to drill small holes with wire sized drills. Sherline seems to have learned from the old Lionel electric train company as they also sell an endless variety of accessories. Sherline lathes have one feature that I don’t like. The usual way to turn a taper is by offsetting the tail stock, and then turning the part between centers. The Sherline tail stock cannot be offset. Sherline overcomes this problem by advising users to rotate the headstock. In normal usage, the headstock is rigidly keyed to to the lathe’s bed with a spline. With the headstock rotated, the spline must be removed and the headstock/bed joint relies on friction alone. I have found that this is not sufficient to accept the side forces from taper turning. Sherline does offer an accessory cross slide that will supposedly turn tapers. Roger

This looks like a really nice little engine and a great value. Eye candy for steam engine junkies like me. Not a criticism but a question. Most steam engines are double acting; steam is alternatively admitted and exhausted from each end of the cylinder. In other words steam pressure alternatively acts on each end of the piston. This is a single acting engine. Steam pressure acts only on one end of the piston, the bottom. It is also non condensing. The condenser block is just a tray that collects water. When the piston reaches the top of its stroke pressure across the piston is balanced and the only downward force acting on it is gravity. Once the engine is running momentum from the flywheel is sufficient to allow gravity to overcome friction and to return the piston to the bottom of its stroke. The question: If you’ve fired up the engine will it operate from a standing start or is it necessary to first spin the flywheel? Roger

Showed your model to my wife who correctly identified it as Paddle to the Sea. She used this book in teaching 5th grade in Southeastern Ohio many years ago. Up here on Lake Superior there has been at least one classroom attempt to duplicate Paddle’s voyage with the students each launching their home built model in the Lake. A couple were found on local beaches. No messages yet from the St Lawrence River! Roger

Just stumbled on to this. A beautiful example of an interesting subject. Roger

Great work up to your usual standards, Gary! My son, his family, and a close friend all live directly in the Eclipse’s path in Indiana. All had reactions similar to yours.. Roger

Great Lakes vessels in bulk cargo trades are long, narrow, and shallow draft. Designers, therefore, are hard pressed to provide adequate structure to stiffen the hulls. Even so some ships flex uncomfortably in rough water. The model that John wants to build will exhibit the same problems without internal structure. A light plastic shell without such reinforcement will behave like a wet noodle. The simplest approach is a wooden hull. Since these Seaway sized vessels are 90% parallel mid body this can be a hollow open topped box with deck beams and deck added to the carved hull later. The bow and stern can be laminated and designed to fit the ends of the box. The bilge radius is easily shaped with a router and the bow and stern shaped by conventional carving techniques. These ships are built with all butt welded seams. Plating is flush with perhaps 1/8” external reinforcement of welded seams (about .01” at 1:96 scale). Lapped plates or heavy weld lines are therefore incorrect on a model. Proper finishing to eliminate wood grain will produce a true to scale model. Roger

Steven, 1150 borders on prehistory, a long, long, time ago. Short of digging up a well preserved vessel no one can really say how these vessels were built and sailed. Likewise, no one can really say if details known to exist on much later lateen rigged vessels were used in 1150. The best anyone can do is to make use of contemporary information available, which you are doing. Keep up the good work, while realizing that this is a difficult subject. Roger

There is an old expression about a boat being a hole in the water into which you throw money. Unfortunately, United States is just a bigger hole to fill. IMHO there are engineering, business, and legal reasons preventing her from sailing again: Business: The passenger ship business seems to be aimed at two different demographics; at one end those that want to join 4999 others aboard a floating theme park/ 24-7 floating casino and at the other end those wanting a quiet experience aboard a small ship. United States would seem to appeal to neither of these groups. The United States, while a big ship carried 1000-2000 passengers. Fares would, therefore, be high, so she would have to tap into the small cruise ship market. Would ongoing demand be high enough to allow her to book profitable passenger loads? Engineering: She is a steam ship! Nobody, operates steamships any more. She has a 900psi US Navy plant. The only steam plants operated today in US Navy vessels are in nuclear powered vessels; different animals. Her boilers, if they can even be brought back to life are equipped to burn bunker c oil, a nasty pollutant that the rest of the world is trying to eliminate from their merchant marine fleets. The state of the art today in marine engineering for passenger carrying vessels seems to be an integrated system where electricity from one source is distributed to both the propulsion system and the system supplying on board hotel services. This also allows use of electric driven trainable pods to improve maneuvering. Even if it could be brought back to life, United States’ machinery is 70 years out of date. Legal: She is an American Flagged ship. The Jones act would require her to be manned with an expensive American crew. She could be reflagged under a flag of convenience; Liberia, Panama, Bahamas, etc. but would she then be the United States? Better for whoever owns her to admit defeat and as Bob Cleek says turn her into razor blades. Roger

A wonderful model! Eric, I believe that you have a set of drawings for a similar railroad ferry in your stash. Perhaps a future project? Railroad car ferries also sailed on the Great Lakes, particularly on lakes Erie and Michigan. On Eastern Lake Erie they transferred cars filled with Ohio mined coal across to Canada. Lake Michigan was a different problem as its axis is North South. This means that it blocked railroads moving freight from Michigan to Wisconsin, Minnesota and points west. Going around the south end of the lake meant that trains had to negotiate the crowded Chicago rail yards, an unacceptable solution. Two railroads, therefore, operated very large purpose built car ferries across the lake. These ferries operated year round, breaking winter ice. As least two were lost in winter storms. The last two, SS Badger and SS Spartan were built in the early 1950’s. Both still exist although only Badger sails. Today, she hauls passengers and their vehicles across the lake; no railroad cars. Badger is the last coal fired reciprocating engine steamship sailing on the lakes. There were also a number of paddle driven railroad car ferries that shuttled cars across the Detroit River. The paddle wheels were driven by massive horizontal steam engines. I remember seeing them in the 1960’s. Roger