tkay11

Just to clarify my concerns about the hoisting beams. Along with the measurement for their positioning (which I probably could get my head round) I was worried about shaping the false external beams so that they fit the hull while at the same time being perfectly in line with the beams inside the hull. Anyway, you can see I'm still thinking about it! Tony

You're quite right, Michael. It's great that you ask this kind of question as the discussion might just reveal to me how to do it. That's one of the great benefits of doing a log so people can ask questions, criticise and offer advice to those who err or are just learning. The beams are supposed to pierce the hull. I decided I would not risk ruining the hull with a botched job, just as I decided not to insert treenails at any part. Once my level of skill is up to that sort of thing I'll consider it, but for the moment I want models that do not distract by grossly obvious blunders. There are already too many smaller blunders that I can just about live with. The problem with the hoisting beams is ensuring the illusion of piercing the hull is perfect. If I were to follow M. Delacroix' guidance, I would have to drill 3mm holes in the beams themselves, drill a corresponding square hole in each side of the hull at exactly the right place, cut corresponding beam ends for the outside with tenons to match mortices in the inner beams and shaping the square sections of the false ends to the curve of the hull, and finally shaping the butts outside to project a short distance above the surface of the planking. I have a feeling that even small discrepancies in placing of the false ends on the hull would destroy the illusion and draw attention to them. I simply couldn't see each of these steps with sufficient clarity to do it (in terms of making jigs that would provide me with the exact markings on the outside of the hull). Of course I could just shape a butt end and glue it to the hull with a nail to fix it, but I thought even that would be too risky. If you've achieved this trick (or if anyone else who has built this model has achieved it), then I'd be grateful for an explanation of the steps of detail of how to do the measurements. There's still a possibility that I might make them as I think I might just be suffering from a lack of imagination about the blindingly obvious! Tony

Thanks very much, Keith. I have enjoyed following your builds of Germania and Altair and admired not only the building skills but also your drafting -- all way beyond my level at the moment but I surely am glad to develop in that direction. Even better: you reinforce my appreciation of boats without guns! Tony

I think it would be an excellent idea for you to open a build log. You can post a series of photos for each stage that you think appropriate and perhaps add comments about how you achieved the results -- especially of the weathering -- along with any difficulties or challenges that you faced. It is the provision of such comments that makes logs most interesting to others. All modellers continue to learn (from themselves as well as from others) throughout their lives, and those who are just beginning are grateful for any clues at all as to how to overcome difficulties or to try different methods. There is, after all, no single 'correct' way to build a model, and every way has its own interest. I'll be looking out for your photos and words of wisdom and experience! Tony

Thanks a lot, Hellmuht. I would not worry about your results, as yours are already much better that I could expect for my own. I particularly admire the weathering effect you have achieved, as well as the really neat construction. Do you have a build log on another site, as I would really like to see how you have achieved your excellent results? What wood have you been using? I really like your build of the Bounty, by the way. I had not seen it before, but your post made me look up your other builds. You should put a link to your builds in your signature so that others are alerted to your skills. As to the cannon, I have already turned a few cannon on a lathe for my previous models, and I find them uninteresting as well as rather ugly. So given the fact that in future I hope to concentrate only on unarmed boats it makes my decision not to put one on this build more likely. However, I'm still thinking about it! Tony

Thanks very much, druxey. Much appreciated -- as are all the likes that have been added to the build! Tony

Just as a matter of interest, to show the difference from the sail plan of the Panart Armed Launch, here's the sail plan for the Chaloupe: Tony

Thanks, Moab. A nice compliment and it's appreciated. Thanks for pointing me to the Panart Armed Launch. I hadn't thought of looking out for those builds as I hadn't realised they were rigged for sailing as well, so I'll now do so. Luckily in terms of the rigging I already have the complete set of sail and rigging plans, including the most detailed drawings of every metal and wooden component as well as of their exact placement. These plans are not part of the normal booklet (which just is of the basic boat and armament), but have to be purchased separately. Mine came for free with the plans and booklet for 'Le Rochefort' which is also produced by M. Delacroix. Interestingly the rigging plans show the boat without the cannon or its rails, although the posts for the swivel guns are included. So I have a feeling that it is expected that the armament is left out for the fully rigged boat. Tony

Well done! Tony

Thanks very much for the likes everyone, and thank you aviaamator and Dirk for the kind comments. I'm still enjoying the build, mistakes and all, and glad you can see through them to that enjoyment and the fun of exploration! Tony

Fore cuddy and hoisting beams I used the 3M low-stick tape to determine the shaping of the planks of the fore-cuddy. These go right up to the bottom of the thwart stringer. As you’ll see, my planking here was a bit messy. Partly this was a result of my not being careful enough with ensuring the planks were bevelled to the very edges of the frames – leaving a hole between the frame and the plank. Also when it came to placing the thwart stringer, I found I had to file away the bottom of the stringer a bit in order to fit the top of the planking. I could have avoided this if I had done what I saw in Jeronimo’s build (https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/497-chaloupe-arm%C3%A9e-en-guerre-1834-by-jeronimo-finished/#comment-5561) where he built just the first three lower strakes and completed only after the stringer was in place. This would have made a neater job for me – although others seem to have managed it quite nicely without doing this. The next thing to do was to place the hoisting beams which are used for lifting the boat in and out of the water and also for handling the ship’s anchors and cables. These require careful shaping to fit the curve of the planks on either side. I determined the width first, using a piece of card which also gave me an idea of the bevelling needed. When it came to the rear hoist beam, I discovered that the last frame on the port side (the one sticking to the keel without an accompanying floor) had come out of vertical and so I had to cut a notch from the beam to keep it parallel with the stern. This brought home the need to double check the verticality of all the frames before planking. Still, this is a learning exercise! I then cut out the central rounded portion of the beams using a combination of scalpel (for marking), saw, chisel and sanding stick as follows: Thwarts I then made a template for positioning the thwarts, and used it on the positioned (but as yet unglued) stringer. I used a 1mm feeler gauge to determine the depths of the cut-outs on the stringer for the thwarts (which are 2mm high and stand proud of the stringer). This depth was checked using a small offcut of the correct dimensions. I glued the thwart stringers into place. Unfortunately I rounded the entire bottom length of the starboard stringer (as advised in the instructions) which made an awkward/ugly fit on top of the fore cuddy planks. I was too lazy to unglue it all and shape another long piece and decided to live with it as a constant reminder of the need to think ahead! Foot stretchers I used a template to cut the slots for the foot stretcher cleats. I then checked the dimensions of the slots with a foot stretcher. You’ll see a tempered glass cutting mat in the next photo. I’ve been trying it out in preparedness for some paper modelling I’ll be doing while recovering from surgery over the coming three months as I’ll not be allowed to lift or strain chest muscles. I then used another template to position the cleats for the foot stretchers. The plans, of course, are drawn in the expectation that the frame positions end up precisely as portrayed . Unfortunately it seems my skills in ensuring the same positions were not quite up to the mark and so I had to change the dimensions of the cleats in order to fit exactly over their respective frames. I have to admit I quite enjoy trying to compensate for my various mistakes. Again it’s all part of learning! The same template was then used to position the cut cleats. You’ll note that the foremost cleat lies on the edge of the fore cuddy. In order to fit it nicely, I therefore milled out its inside edge. The width of each stretcher was then determined using the old method of sliding sticks. Finally I checked the orientation with regard to the stern by measuring and placing card thwarts and a stretcher. So I am now deliberating whether I will arm the longboat with its cannon and swivel guns. I am not interested in building ships of war, more in developing skills in modelling and working on coastal boats. Also I am thinking about masting and rigging the boat. I can’t see how the sails would work with the huge cannon in the middle of the boat. So I am studying the sail plans and will make up my mind over the next week or so. In the meantime I also have to think how to make the thwart supports and some of the wood attachments and ironwork that goes onto the hull and thwarts (mast holders, cleats, rings etc.). All in all, it may therefore be some time before I can continue this log. Tony

One interesting question is when did the contrast start between 'kits' and a rather romanticised notion of 'scratch building'? There have been many discussions about the contrast between 'scratch' and 'kit' building on this forum over the years and you might like to search for them to see the sometimes vigorous and passionate arguments. The current thread repeats many of them. Until very recently 'scratch building' was the norm for hobbyists and amateur modellers. Harold Underhill produced his book on Plank on Frame Models in 1958, and this was then aimed at what was probably a thriving market. Before that there is a centuries-long history of making model boats either from plans or from memory. Even then some people would buy parts that they did not want to make, or assemble (string, wire, nails, glue, varnish, pre-cut wood planks) and 'kits' are just a continuation of this idea. The sharp distinction is unclear to me, the spectrum is not. There is also the question of the number of different skills and the time required to obtain them, as has been raised already in this discussion. I think I read that Admiralty models were not built only by one person, but by teams of craftsmen and apprentices -- a number of different skills would be required (someone more knowledgeable might like to comment on this: for example was only one person responsible for drafting the plans, lofting, and making all the different parts?). Another spectrum: the history of model-making includes the full range of those who try to create replicas at a lower scale (and which can never be true replicas as not every detail can be exactly miniaturised, sails being one example) to those who just build something fanciful or attractive to themselves for other reasons. In Egypt I saw some wonderful models made 4,000 years ago. People even argue about the accuracy of full-size replicas, especially when propellers are added. Just now I am 'scratch-building' a small gaff-rigged 'cutter' from a walnut shell for the grand-children (although there won't be a build log on this forum for it). And another: there is an enormous number of reasons that people have when they build models. Is it for yourself, the enjoyment of others, to sell, or to impress? Is it to sail, to miniaturise, to challenge, to occupy your mind, to get away from problems, to create with your hands, to learn, or simply to enjoy your own creations? So, Bob, as suggested by others in this thread, don't be put off by one particular view of 'true' scratch building (unless you really do want to mimic the original work of the modellers who worked on the Admiralty models -- and even amongst them there were quite a few differences, so you'd probably have to choose a particular model and make the tools and materials they used). There is no such thing. Just think what you'd like to achieve and then start to practice with the tools you have at hand, some plans and a good read of the variety of builds available on this forum. You might enjoy Harold Underhill's 2-volume set which you can buy used from Amazon for £20, or new from Brown, Son and Ferguson for £50. He just worked with a few basic tools and an old card table. Underhill also produced hundreds of plans of boats of very different types which are still available cheaply from Brown, Son and Ferguson -- including the small coastal craft which have been mentioned in this thread. And never be ashamed of your efforts when comparing them to the skills of others. Don't forget other people had to start somewhere and gradually learn the skills they continue to master. Just determine the compromises with which you are comfortable, since whatever the model you will have to accept compromises at the altar of learning. In my own model-making I try to be as objective as possible about my strengths and weaknesses, and learn from the experience of others to improve the weaknesses. That is the great strength of logging a build on this forum. There will be lots of general encouragement (which is always welcome and boosts your confidence), and there will also be people providing critical comment or advice. Should you ever ask a question you will always get a host of replies. You will also appreciate very quickly that there are numerous different approaches to whatever problem you face, so again you can make your own choices as to the type of answer you prefer. Take heart, read lots of build logs, dive in and enjoy! Tony

You may like to obtain Harold Underhill's two volumes called "Plank on Frame Models and Scale Masting & Rigging" first published in 1958. These are available used as a set on Amazon UK at the moment for £20 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plank-Models-Masting-Rigging-Volumes/dp/B00161MO38), or for £45 new from Brown, Son & Ferguson (https://www.skipper.co.uk/catalogue/books/page). These books show how to interpret plans and build using a minimum of equipment and space. They are regarded as a classic introduction to model ship building. He encourages the use of pinning as well as gluing, but some suggest nowadays that this may no longer be necessary for all the joints in a boat as modern glues are very strong. You can make your own mind up about that. Tony

It's an interesting thought that not so long ago (perhaps up till half way through the last century) a lot of the books for beginners were about scratch building. There are still quite a few books from that era in print as well as being downloadable, so you might want to research those. In fact there are files available in the download section of this forum that will give good advice on starting to scratch build. Plans are plentiful and not very expensive for good ones. The only thing I'd recommend if you're going to do scratch building is to get a CAD programme. Some are free. The one I use is TurboCAD which you can pick up from about £20 for earlier versions. But it's far from necessary. It just allows you to re-scale plans easily and develop templates for your own parts. Even basic photo-editing programmes have much the same function, and if you work with Linux then there's excellent free software on that platform. My own experience was that I started with a kit (of the Sherbourne) but very quickly went to making my own parts. In fact almost the only part I built from the kit was the basic hull. Looking back on it all, it wouldn't have been that hard to build it all from just the plans. As a result, after completing the Sherbourne, I went to building the Triton cross section (the plans for which are available for free on this forum) and because there are so many other build logs for this there is plentiful experience and advice to help you build it. I'm now not at all wary of scratch building (although of course my skills are not at all great) and in fact I very much enjoy being able to create and re-create parts as well as figure out how to interpret plans. A particular disadvantage of many kits is that the wood they supply is variable in quality. When you build from scratch your wood supply is up to you. Finally, if you're worried about building intricate and small parts, there's quite a lot of such parts available as photo-etch or manufactured from model suppliers. I wish you well in your endeavour! Tony

Mainmast step There was no difficulty pulling the hull off the mould (because of the over-liberal coating of wax and silicone spray), and the ends of the futtocks were removed flush with a cutting disk and sanding stick. The mainmast step was fashioned from a small piece of scrap pear, and holes drilled for the mainmast as well as the hole for the thwart pillar. The mainmast hole was cut square with a 2mm chisel. Stern sheets The key to the process of installing the stern sheets is getting the correct height for the support beams. The booklet suggests starting with the beam at the fore end, but I found it easier to make the small bulkhead that lies at the fore end of the sheets and which supports them. I reckoned it would then be very easy to stick the fore beam to the bulkhead and to the floors at either side. Plan 4 includes a cross section of the hull at rear frame 4, the site of the bulkhead, so it was easy to determine its outline from the plan. The next thing is to determine the height of the rear beam for the cuddy. This can be done quite easily from Plan 3 I then took a strip of paper to mark the height of the beam and then adjusted the rear beam until the correct height was obtained. The following picture shows the beam as too high, so it was re-adjusted until the height was correct. Then the intervening beams were laid using the fore and aft beams as reference points. Cutting the stern sheet boards was then straightforward, cutting notches for the futtocks and mimicking the caulking with a pencil rubbed at an angle along one edge of each plank. It’s important to angle the pencil because that gives a slight bevel to the plank. The following picture shows the rear cuddy planked, without varnish. Fore cuddy The apron internal timber was fixed to the apron after simple bending using dry heat. The height of the fore cuddy planking was determined by its width at front frame 5. I had tried to use just the measurement of the height shown in plan 3, but came up with the following discrepancy: So I unglued all the beams with isopropyl alcohol, and started again. This time I determined the height using the rear edge of the card template I had made. I then used a tick strip to determine the height of the first beam and cut a bulkhead using the cross section at front frame 5 shown on Plan 4, which gave me the bottom outline. For the planking I opted to use wider planks along the sides as to have used 5 mm planking would have resulted in difficulties in cutting round the futtocks. The planks were also cut around the internal timber fixed to the stem (seen in the picture below). Bottom boards The bottom boards were cut using templates cut from the plan. Luckily these were very accurate, and even more luckily (since I had no pear sheets wider than 10mm) they all could be cut to the correct shape and width with 10mm wide strips. The planks were glued to the floors and separated using some 0.7mm thick strips I had in my scrap box. Finally holes were drilled for the foremast and the thwart pillar. Turnbuckles These were used to hold down the planks adjacent to the false keel (and to remove them to access the keel) and are nailed into the relevant floors. So I made a template for a strip of 1mm square wood. This helped me cut the turnbuckles to the correct size and place the holes accurately. Next up will be the cuddy side planks. Tony

I can't really tell from the drawing that you sent what the question is, but I thought I'd check your measurements. I imported the drawing into TurboCAD and set as 64mm the left hand line you have for 1Av. I measured it from the centre of the outer line to the centre of the centre line. I then measured the right hand side in exactly the same way and it came to 63.92mm, a difference of .08mm. I personally would not regard that as an enormous difference, and certainly one that would be hard to see in normal model-making. I didn't bother to check the other measurements, but if you still have difficulties perhaps you could clarify the precise measurements and other aspects with which you have difficulty. I hope this was helpful, Tony

You can always make your own. There are lots of sites giving advice about this. My own mix is one third each of linseed oil, white spirit and polyurethane varnish. Tony

That made me laugh, aviaamotor! Don't worry, more will be coming. But after I've caught up with the amazing build logs such as yours! Thanks, Tony

Gosh, Johann! I feel a bit embarrassed as I admire and have followed your amazing work for a long time. I have learnt a lot from you. So thank you! Tony

Thanks Dirk, G.L. and Moab. Much appreciated. I'm beginning to like this model more and more. I certainly see the advantages as well as the different difficulties of taking on not only this method of construction but also of a large scale longboat. The details are going to be quite challenging, although challenging in a new way because each part is that more obvious. One of the challenges I'm looking at right now is the construction of the stern sheets and getting them at the right height and angle. I'm also thinking of the ironwork to come, as well as (if I dare take it on) the rigging and masting for which I have the supplementary plans. Definitely a model to recommend as something that's elegant as well as setting new types of problem for the novice builder. Tony

External Planking You will remember from an earlier post that I had raised the question of how long the external planks would have been. A number of sources have shown that originally there would have been about three planks of 12ft for each strake, with normal butt sequencing. I could have tried to do this, but with the frames at only 2mm wide it would have been tricky to get the butts and fixing done well. Also I could have simply scribed where the butt joints would have been. I might try to do this at some time, but for the moment I am following what others have done with this model and just lined the hull with full length planks. This itself has implications for the preparation of the planks. We can now get back to the fact that I had not ordered wide sheets of 1mm pear wood for the planking, but instead had bought strips 6.2mm wide. This meant that I could not practice spiling, as I was not going to waste all that wood and pay another £15 for delivery. And so I had to experiment a lot in order to find the best method of shaping and fitting the planks. Of course, whether I would spile or not, I had to get the marking out correct. I used the time-honoured method with paper tick strips 5mm wide, along with the Chuck’s planking fan diagram that is available on the forum at http://modelshipworldforum.com/ship-model-framing-and-planking-articles.php for lining off the hull. The tick strips were used for all those frames that reached the keel after the stem, notably frames 6.5 backwards. To find the forward edges where the planks meet the stem I first used 1mm finger nail striping that you can find for about £1 on eBay. However, I found quickly that the more traditional method of using sewing cotton worked even better. Each plank was then shaped before bending using a miniature plane and filing sticks. The garboard planks were laid first, with their tapered edges at the top (to meet the untapered edges of subsequent planks). This is as shown in the file SIMPLE HULL PLANKING TECHNIQUES FOR BEGINNERS also available in the downloads section on planking in this site. Finding the shape of the planks I used Chuck’s idea of low-tack transparent tape to find the shape of the planks. This worked better than standard tape because it takes pencil marks far better. Dry heat versus soaking I tried very hard to bend the planks just using a hair dryer and a variety of jigs. However, the planks are very long (340mm) and the complexity of the curvatures made it very tricky to do this. In the end I decided (as many others have done, and as is recommended in the booklet for this model) to use a combination of soaking and heating with the hair dryer. First, the soaking. For these long planks, I followed the example of others in using a section of 35mm diameter PVC waste pipe, using a milk bottle top sealed at the bottom end with an epoxy adhesive (JBWeld). I then soaked the planks overnight, and laid each one flat over the shape of the plank on low tack tape on some particle board using panel pins to follow the shape. I helped them to dry with the hair dryer, but waited a while until they had fully dried out. To bend the planks horizontally, I then used dry heat. After laying three planks in this fashion, I thought I’d experiment with soaking the planks and then fixing them straight to the frames, letting them dry fully to ensure they shrank back to their dry sizes, and then gluing the dried planks to the frames. This worked very well indeed, and much better than going through the palaver of trying to shape them before fixing to the frames. Fixing the planks to the frames I had thought to use ordinary mapping pins to fix the planks to the frames and the mould underneath, but found that the pins were too short for the combined thickness of planks and frames. For a while I looked at the possibility of making framing clamps with screw threads, but in the end opted for making my own panel pins with 8mm dowel and standard metal panel pins with the heads taken off using a cutting disk. I then added strips of wood to ensure the even spread of pressure on the planks across their width and to prevent indentation of the planks (which was only partially successful, as will be seen). Inevitably there were some hairline gaps in some areas between the planks. Initially I used a syringe to fill these with woodworkers glue (the white, not the yellow variety) followed by a sprinkling of pear wood sanding dust to make a similarly coloured filler. However I found that it was just as effective to add the glue by itself for the very finest of gaps. With all the planks in place I then sanded with a combination of sanding blocks, sanding sticks, and a Proxxon pen sander. This was followed by scraping using a Stanley blade, and finally steel wool. As you will see, there were still a few blemishes and indentations, and certainly not up to the standard of others who have built this model, but as I’m using this model to learn I am not going to start all over again. As the walnut inadvertently crept into the picture, I might as well explain it. I had made a small gaff-rigged cutter for the grandchildren with half a walnut shell providing the hull. It had sails that could be raised and lowered, but no rudder. This proved very successful, especially as it floated, so I am about to build a few more of these miniature cutters for them. Varnishing As with my previous build, I made my own Danish oil from a mixture of linseed oil, white spirit and polyurethane varnish mixed in proportions of one third for each. The results with the varnish are: Some of the imperfections you see are due to irregularities in the framing which are entirely due to my failing to align them correctly. I put this down to learning for future builds. Next I’ll be going to the inside and working my way deeper into the dark side. Tony

Another possibility might be a modification of the approach I used for making swivel gun mountings when building the Sherbourne. I took a brass rod, bent it to a U, flattened the ends with a cutting wheel, then laid a brass tube across the top and finally cut out the middle section of the brass tube. You can see the process if you scroll down to "Swivel Guns" in the section at https://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/335-hmc-sherbourne-1763-by-tkay11-finished-–-caldercraft-–-scale-164-a-novice’s-caldercraft-sherbourne/&page=4&tab=comments#comment-117947. I agree it may be a bit fiddly for shackles, but it may stimulate some inventive thinking by someone! Tony

And a warm welcome from North London! Looking forward to your posts! Tony

Was the 4mm difference the measurement at 1:12, at 1:24 or at full scale? In the drawings of the Chaloupe Armée and of Le Rochefort, for example, I found similar small discrepancies between plans, but they would not be noticeable in actual builds. Similarly it is sometimes difficult (though possible) to establish inner and outer lines for the frames as they have to be calculated in the case of the Chaloupe. Problems will be greater when trying to use the drawings as the basis for 3D constructions in CAD. I don't know the plans for the Catarina but it looks like an attractive build. Perhaps you could contact M.Fissore about your problems as he has clearly built the boat very nicely. I have found the authors of these monographs to be very helpful in dealing with problems of this nature. Another possibility is to start a discussion in the French forum Marine & Modélisme d'Arsenal where there are often discussions about difficulties with the plans from various Ancre monographs.

Thanks a lot, Moab and Michael. You've reinforced the value of build logs to preserve the spirit of this forum. They help the builder as well as others. Even if I don't finish it, it's the steps along the way that are meaningful. After all, without those there would be no model! Tony