bruce d

Thanks to all for the comments. The PDF attached is good reading for anyone interested in carronades. After reading it I am satisfied I was wrong to think that PICKLE may have had four-trucked, stepped cannon-type carriages.

It was good to dig, and guess what? I found out what everybody else already knew! The sliding carriage was standard and some had trucks, some didn't.

Bruce

object-9-carronade.pdf

Welcome to MSW. Hope to see more of your work.

Bruce

1 hour ago, Dubz said:

Any input is appreciated 🙂

Hello Dubz,

I missed all of the early part of your Sherbourne build so excuse me. Have the other Slade designs FERRET and LURCHER been any help to you? There is a good plan of LURCHER in the Dansk archives:

Also, another drawing of LURCHER, ref: D3525, is in the Dansk archives but it is not digitised. I believe it is another view of hull/deck details, not sailplan, but have not seen it.

I hope this helps, perhaps just more pieces of the puzzle.

Chris, thanks for the information. This is the very plan I had in mind when I first thought about scaling up the dimensions to make a 12 pounder.

I would not expect a small ship in Nelson's fleet to have been a priority when the new guns were being handed out so I am working on the assumption that Pickle had armament that was at best 1803 manufacture (the last entry I can find in her log for re-gunning) and probably earlier. I am not saying they had hand-me-downs but I feel guns/carriages from 1800-ish feel right to me.

The drawing you have posted may well be right for the Trafalgar era and if I unearth anything that dates it earlier I will share it.

Regards,

Bruce

Just now, GrandpaPhil said:

The book “The Search For Speed Under Sail” by Howard I Chapelle has plans for a British style 12 lb Carronade Carriage on the plates with the rigging plan for the Prince de Neufchatel.

Well that is good to know: I just ordered a copy! I look forward to seeing it.

Thanks,

Bruce

8 minutes ago, druxey said:

probably the late 1790's.

Sounds good to me! PM sent.

Many thanks.

52 minutes ago, druxey said:

… is in Caruana, Volume II on page 208.

Thanks druxey, sounds interesting but I don't have that. Does it have a date?

Hi Per,

Thanks, maybe a version of this image?

I wish I knew the date of that carriage. The arrangement of the rear 'wheels' look more like rounded skids than working trucks.

This image below is interesting but I haven't tracked down the identity of the carronade shown. It was exhibited at ' Artillery on Parade 2016 ' according to Captain Google.

Open to suggestions. Someone may know the back-story and I may be chasing shadows.

Bruce

Hello Allan,

Thanks for the useful answer. It is probable that my subject (HMS Pickle in 1805) did indeed have the traversing type of carriage that was common at the time, and your answer certainly helps support that idea. The reason I am looking for the alternative, a four wheeled (trucked) carriage of the style used for cannons, is based on a statement I came across some time ago concerning the use of carronades on smaller craft with limited armament such as dispatch boats and revenue cutters. In these cases the carronade was mounted on a ‘four wheeled’ carriage ‘as would a cannon of similar weight of shot’.

The reason given was simple: it was quicker to relocate a carriage of this type than the more common traversing mounting. In the heat of the moment a bow-chaser could be rigged or the weight of a broadside increased considerably faster and with a ship the size of Pickle (pierced for 14 guns but carrying four) this could be vital. So this practice does seem to make sense and if it was used prior to Trafalgar there is a good chance Pickle had carronades on cannon-type carriages.

If the practice was common I would have expected to find drawings of carriages of this type prior to 1808. It is possible the four wheel trucks that came in around 1808 to 1815 are in response to this requirement, so I may be barking up the wrong tree. I asked in the hope of someone producing a drawing or reference from 1805 or earlier that would at least prove it was a viable idea.

Regards,

Bruce

I could use some help please. I’m looking for plans for an English 12 pounder carronade carriage circa 1800-1805, the four wheeled type used on smaller sloops/schooners.

Maybe the answer is to scale up/down another carriage, but I would like to know the rules if this is the case.

Thanks,

Bruce

6 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

I have a Unimat DB/SL, but would advise a new buyer to go with the Sherline. The Unimats are great, but they now have a "cult following" and are expensive on the used market.

Hello Jfinan,

You have received a variety of points of view, so good luck with making your choice. My tool of choice is the Unimat SL but it can only handle modest lengths without using an accessory called 'extensions'. Bob in post #7 laid it all out. As Bob has said, the bits and bobs to add to the lathe to make it useful can cost a lot but, since I don't know where you live, thought it worth pointing out that in the UK the Sherline is not well known, expensive and (as far as I know) only available through one source. The Sherline has a good reputation but the North American market seems to have 95% of them. The second hand Unimats in the UK will probably hold their value but avoid the red plastic 'UNIMAT BASIC' which is everywhere. It is a toy and you will do better with a drill and a steady hand.

26 minutes ago, Clark said:

Within all the discussions about CAD and precision modelling, I felt a bit old fashioned when trusting the eyes.

I feel the same way when I am reading about CAD, but when I am at my workbench with a piece of wood I use what I have and am satisfied. 

3 hours ago, chris watton said:

and the Indi is the only one of the Ardent class of 64's that shows the stern.

... and Indi and Aggie were both from the same yard, subject to the same decisions and whims. As the only two of the class from that yard, the odds are certainly with you. The NMM folio I mentioned in an earlier post is a  long shot but worth a phone call. I have usually had such queries answered within a week, quicker if it does not require a physical check. 

Imperieuse would be a great subject.

Bruce

7 minutes ago, druxey said:

With all due respect, that painting shown in post #293 is not by Pocock but a comparatively modern one by Wylie. Viewer beware!

Hello druxey. Maybe I am not seeing something. It is described as Wylie in the post.   I know it is more modern (Wylie died about 1974?).

Bruce

51 minutes ago, chris watton said:

What do you trust, though, several drawings and paintings, many not entirely contemporary, or the original Admiralty lines for the class of ship but a different name?

Trust is hard to come by in research. I hope that my prodding of the subject is welcomed, but feel free to say if you have already covered all sources.

Until recently, I earned my crust as a researcher. Now I have retired it is difficult to break old habits so I dug a bit.

Have you asked the NMM about the contents of folio ADUB0340? The description of this folio is sparse but includes a misspelling of the ship's name and may not have come up in routine searches.  With no dates, it may or may not be your Agamemnon.

As the only other class ship produced at Bucklers Yard was Agamemnon, I see why the Indefatigable plans are such an appealing prospect.

Bruce

It was about the time that the powers-that-be started to get serious about standardization and, who knows, it may have reached the subject of framing/windows? 

The Pocock painting in post #289 above has some merit as a source: it was a contemporary work by an artist who was famed for doing research on his subject. He may have 'blinged up' some aspects but there was no profit in changing such details as windows. If he included eight windows he probably did not think the ship had seven.

Has anyone looked at the logs of the ship? Details crop up, especially around the time work in a dockyard happens.

HTH

Bruce

Chris, it's me again.

Harold Wyllie painting “Launch of the 'Agamemnon', Buckler's Hard, 1781”

Again, don’t know what you have already seen so apologies if this is ‘old news’.

Bruce

2 hours ago, chris watton said:

... the only contemporary set of plans for the class showing the stern in detail

Hello Chris,

I certainly don't want to second-guess what research you have already done but this stern view of Aggie was painted in 1810.

The artist was Nicholas Pocock, highly regarded as a researcher with a reputation for fidelity and detail. The painting depicts Aggie in June 1796.

HTH

Bruce

Yank? Things have changed since my last visit to Oklahoma.

On 7/29/2019 at 1:47 PM, RussR said:

I don't know what "mainbrace is".

'Splicing the Mainbrace' is sailor-speak for 'have a drink'.

Good looking model.

Regards,

Bruce

Hello Steve

Welcome to MSW. It is a great place.

23 minutes ago, ccoyle said:

Subtle difference. 

Groan.

8 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Actually not. The under-planking is just there to allow better fairing of the real planking. So, the rabbet should be cut, after the under-planking is on.

That is the way I have drawn my plans without actually stopping to think about it. Thanks for the confirmation.

Pete, that is nice work. I think I looked at those pictures some time ago when I was cogitating and can see the advantages: it is almost like a solid hull.

58 minutes ago, Jaager said:

the wood will not be white,  rather grey or light blue. 

Jaager, I have had good results from the holly I have cut so far. I sealed the ends soon after cutting and because the tree came down in winter (so I have been told) the odds are better. I think the blue mould is less of a problem over here but it definately can happen.

The deck is the area where I want to stick close to the pale white holly colour so, if some of it shows discolouration, I will use the best for the deck and the duff stuff for the hull planking which will be painted/stained and coppered.

I have about six of lengths as in the photo which is enough for my modelling needs, I expect, and more wood is seasoning from a cull last year. It is beautiful wood.

Bruce