hamilton

Hello everyone: So I've completed my revision of the detailed parts list, rigging table and belaying plans for the Corel HMS Greyhound. I would like to offer these to anyone entering into this build (free, obviously), if you would like. I can't promise they will be useful, since they come out of my brain in relation to the inadequacies of the Corel kit as I have perceived them...but they may be of help.... Anyway, if anyone wants these, send me a PM and I'll send them on as PDFs. hamilton

Great job on the companionway! And on the build on the whole. hamilton

Excellent work Harlequin! I hope I can get mine looking this good. I admire your tenacity in re-doing things that you're not entirely satisfied with - too often I just decide to live with them! I'll try to take a page from your book. Anyway - really nice to look at! hamilton

Well, Harlequin, I never properly learned how to drink whiskey - though I know my way around a Tom Collins or a Manhattan....we'll see how bad it gets! Augie - I have to say that I'm surprised with the low quality of this kit. I've built 3 Corel kits (the Brittany Sloop, the Flattie and the Toulonnaise) and I have the Bellona up on the shelf. The ones I've built were really top notch and the Bellona certainly is of very high quality all around. It seems as if the Greyhound was a bit of a rush-to-market or something - hastily put together and so rather sloppy. The illustrated instructions remind me of the booklet that came with the ME/Amati Bluenose I built last year - also vague and frustrating, though on a much less complicated build. If Corel beefed up the plans (adding at least 3 sheets - one separating out the hull profile/deck plans to give more construction details and showing the bow and stern; one for standing rigging and scale mast details; one for running rigging and spar details) this would be a great kit. The quality of the wood and fittings is up to the usual Corel standard. A bit more effort would make this a truly excellent kit.... Anyway, now that Harlequin has pointed out his attempts at using other ship's boats, I'm worried that the one I ordered won't work out....oh well! It's only $8 right? I can't allow myself to have ME on speed dial or I'd be building my boats out a cardboard box.... hamilton

Hi Harlequin: Thanks for the encouragement! Most definitely needed with this kit! But you're right - I think it will look great with a few "improvements". I've actually ordered a small plank-on-frame ship's boat kit from model expo which is roughly the same size (about 1/16 off the size of the metal boat included with the kit). It only cost $8.00 so I figured, why not! I was already ordering extra 1/8" eyebolts, black rigging thread, shroud cleats, and a bunch of other stuff, so.... I was actually thinking of dealing with that forward rail by tracing the pattern and cutting it out of a slightly thicker-than-it-has-to-be sheet and then sanding it down to a more appropriate thickness...or perhaps doing it in 2 port and starboard sections and just filling the gap between them. One part of the kit that is extremely vague and that I haven't come to terms with yet is the bowsprit seating....It appears that the bowsprit just kind of goes into the deck....but there is very little guidance from Corel on this....I may throw you a question or two when the time comes, hope you won't mind the interruption to your Bellona (which I'm really looking forward to seeing, by the way). Thanks again and bye for now - maybe eventually I'll actually start building this kit!! hamilton

Good evening! Well, against all sane advice I've pressed on with my complete revision of Corel's documentation. I have now finished my revised parts list and my preliminary rigging tables (the latter is subject to change based on what I learn from the literature I've ordered....). Here are some highlights: 1. Corel's instruction booklet gives no indication of the size/length or features included on the masts & spars, so I've added all of those to the list 2. I've also added some features omitted altogether (like spritsail yard jeers, some cannon rigging elements, etc.) 3. I've allowed for the scratch building of several parts (the ship's boat, the f'csl rail, e.g.) - breaking these parts into components 4. The rigging plan is sequential and individualises each rigging element (block, ringbolt, timberhead, deadeye & sheave) I'm not sure that what I've done will be useful to anyone but myself, but if anyone is interested in having it just for reference, I'd be happy to share - send me a PM with your email and I'll get them out (not sure where to "publish" them here and given that it is very "kit specific" I'm not sure how appropriate it is to do so.....) The major issue with my revisions is that they make Corel's plans and instructions superfluous, so it would be hard to use both this and the Corel stuff at the same time. I had thought for a while of redrawing the plans, but I have only done this in order to develop a belaying plan (in 2 sheets, one for the deck and one for the inboard and outboard bulwarks). I figure that if you ignore the numbers on Corel's documentation and just take measurements where necessary these should work.... Anyway, perhaps it's nuts to spend so much time doing something like this, and I guess it probably wasn't necessary to have such an extreme reaction to a poor set of plans/instructions...but I already feel better about building this kit now that I've done this - and I found a great number of errors and pitfalls that I feel I can work around having done such a detailed review of the kit.... Here are a couple of shots of the deck plan that I made this evening to map out the belaying arrangement based on Corel's drawing and my parts list/rigging table....it's pretty rough....but... hamilton

Definitely one to follow! I'm tempted to start my Bellona now so I can have someone to build with! But I don't think I have the skills yet to match the beauty of this ship....I'll be following this with great interest! hamilton

Hi Dave: Though my name's hamilton, I've never been to Hamilton - I was born in Montreal, grew up in Fredericton, New Brunswick and have lived for the last 17 years (minus 4 between Montreal and Seoul) in Vancouver. As for Lees, thanks for the references! I just got an email saying that the expected delivery date is April 27!! How will I wait? Anyway, maybe I'll do some yard work for the next month to pass the time..... hamilton

Thanks a lot Jay - the funny thing is I was looking for this thread last week when I was finishing off a build and wanting some suggestions for rope coils! It'll definitely come in handy on the next one. hamilton

Hi John: Good to know re, shroud cleats. And thanks for the tip on Lees - I just ordered my copy! Almost ready now.... hamilton

Yes John and Dave - very helpful - though with all this extra rigging I'm fast running out of potential places to put all the lines! I haven't been able to find Lees book at a local library and I'm afraid I'm unwilling to pay over $100 for it, which is the minimum I've been able to find.....if anyone has a copy I'll pay to have it shipped here and I'll ship it back to you nice and neat! I'm very good with books! Another question - would a ship of this size/rate/era have had shroud cleats on either the lower or topmast shrouds? Or both? Or none? I know, I know - I should be waiting for all my literature to arrive, but the answers here have been so good and so fast! I can't help it!! hamilton

Hi Jackson: Short answer - yes, you cut it from 2mm x 4mm walnut (though if you have a softer wood of the same dimensions lying around, like lime or basswood, I'd use that - no sense using nice walnut for a structural feature that will go completely unseen. Now having said that, there are A LOT of problems that I can foresee in installing this seemingly simple piece - this is part of the overall poor instructions/plans that Corel has included with this kit. So even though it seems straightforward I would approach it with some caution. Let me explain. The beam supports the aft end of the quarterdeck (piece 20) and is shown in the instruction booklet as having a distinct curve (or camber). But since there is no scale drawing of the transom or stern section of the model, there is no telling exactly what this camber is from the plans....it seems that Corel expected us to guess! The solution is actually in part 19, the metal part included for the cabin bulkhead, which supports the forward end of the quarterdeck and the curve of whose top should match that of the beam (18). The top of this part has a very slight camber, which (if you're going to use this part as opposed to scratch building it) should be traced onto a slightly thicker piece of 4mm wide wood - 3mm or 4mm x 4mm would work for this. Trace the camber of part 19 onto the wood strip, cut it to length (using the bulkhead 13 as your reference) and shape just the one side of it. Then cut the opposite edge of the wood flat so that it measures 2mm x 4mm at both ends. It is not necessary to cut the curve into the bottom, since this part is only included to support the quarterdeck and will not be seen. And in not cutting the curve it will be easier to place on the model. I would also do a bit of dry fitting of all these pieces (your shaped part 18, part 19 and the quarterdeck, part 20) first, to determine that the notches in bulkhead 13, where you lay (18), are even in height with one another and with the cabin bulkhead (which fits between the bulkhead extensions of bulkhead 12). If you find that your quarterdeck is sloping either aft or forward, you'll have to modify the notches in bulkhead 13 where you fit the beam - either sanding them down or shimming them up so that the quarterdeck is nice and even fore and aft. Anyway, sorry for such a long response to a short question! I hope this is helpful. This seems like it's going to be a really nice model when it's done, though given the generally poor quality of the plans it may be more or less frustrating to get there. Though some here might think me foolish for doing so, I've basically begun (and now almost finished) completely re-jigging Corel's numbering system and elaborating a detailed parts list, rigging table and belaying plan. I would be happy to share these with you at any time you begin to get a sense of the inadequacy of Corel's instructions/plans. Using my modified tables involves going through Corel's plans/instructions and making changes to the numbers they include. I'm no artist so there is no graphical dimension to what I've done (except some very crude plan & profile drawings to show belaying points), and it might not make sense to others! But for me it was a good way to identify a number of omissions, inconsistencies and errors in Corel's documentation. My current version of these modified tables (though almost done) is probably going to be heavily modified again once I get Goodwin's Anatomy of the Ship HMS Blandford (a ship nearly identical to Greyhound) from Amazon, which should be shortly....anyway if you PM me an email address I can send these to you once they're complete....don't know if you'll find them useful but...I'm happy to share and to answer any questions too. Do you have a build log going here? You should start one if not! hamilton

Well I've almost completed making the rigging table for Greyhound but I was getting so frustrated with the often random way that Corel has numbered parts and particularly the fact that the plans do not indicate or distinguish between things like belaying pins, timberheads, cleats and so on, that I've decided to generate what I think is a sensible parts list put together in the progressive order of the build. The parts list will essentially allow me to develop a much more detailed view of the build but will ultimately require me to modify the plans and instruction booklet so that I don't get too confused during those times when I have to use them as a reference....Of course it will also mean that I have to completely revise my rigging plan, since the numbering system I used to identify lines, blocks and belaying points was derived from the kit.... Anyway, today I put quite a bit of time into the new parts list as well as into the rigging table. Tomorrow I'll complete the parts list, modify the plans, and begin revising the rigging table/belaying plan.... This could be a complete waste of time, as well, since one the literature starts arriving I may have to revise everything again! Once everything gets finalised I will post the rigging table, parts list and belaying plans here for anyone thinking of making this kit in the future hamilton

Excellent - clearly and simply put and well illustrated! I feel better already. Thanks BE! and all on this thread for your help and encouragement hamilton

Thanks BE - I was suspicious of the presence of so many pins on a ship of this vintage - the having some helps to figure out the rigging/belaying. I've made a couple of plan sheets of my own (very crude) to replicate the layout of the belaying points as shown by Corel. I've also begun to make a rigging table based on the Corel plans. Having begun this latter, I now see the need to go through the entire kit and re-number everything after the basic hull construction....a bit of a headache, but Corel were not very dilligent or complete on the masting and rigging and so I'll need to re-number, modify the existing plans and then make new clean plans and a final rigging table of my own based on the sources at my disposal. I've located a copy of Anderson's book at the University of BC library, to which I'll pay a visit soon....Anyway, lots of work to do. It's actually a heck of a lot more interesting to have to do all this work first before launching into the build itself. I feel like I'm building up a kind of "intimacy" with the ship that I missed on other builds.... I may actually build this one as the Blandford, though the scale is a bit off from Goodwin (1:100 as opposed to 1:96) - could anyone give a complete math idiot (me) a quick tip on scale conversion? Maybe I'll post this topic in another thread..... hamilton

Yet another question regarding the 20-gun ship of 1720 (though if I had more patience I could just wait for the AOS Blandford to arrive... Were such ships rigged with stay sails? I'm putting together my rigging/belaying plan and rigging tables and was not sure - there is no indication (surprise!) in the Corel instructions/plans...but if anyone knows....Thanks! hamilton

Thanks for the quick response druxey! I thought so. The Corel Greyound has pin racks on the bitts, on a ring on the mizzen mast, and along the quarterdeck rail (which seems especially weird to me)...once the AOS Blandford arrives I'll be able to get what hopefully is a more accurate sense of things...alright, I should get back to marking papers here....goodnight all and thanks for the help! hamilton

Whoa! Jerome, I think I missed your post by seconds (I was typing mine) - what ship is that in the photo you posted? I'll take a look for Lees book as well, though if it's out of print that usually means $$$$ for any used copy....anyways, thanks for the pointer....always in the market for more books hamilton

Good suggestions all. Druxey - thanks for the advice, but I have a lot of experience doing historical research. My PhD is in history of technology, so I'm used to dissecting old books on specialised subjects, and I'm not afraid to learn some new terminology. I'll give Anderson a go. Working from home today, so I spent my lunch hour starting to map out the Greyhound rigging. Started by taking a tracing of the deck plan and both outboard and inboard profiles and marking the various belaying points - timberheads, bitts, cleats and (perhaps anachronistically) belaying pins....On that topic - my understanding is that belaying pins were not typical on ships of this era, but maybe I'm wrong....I had assumed that the timber heads would do the majority of the work for belaying.....can anyone clarify? Anyways...thanks a lot all! Very helpful responses here and so fast!! hamilton

Thanks Chuck - a bit of prodding tells me that the Blandford was ordered at the same time as Greyhound....hard to say how similar they might have been but hopefully this will give some indication - I have the AOS Bellona and it's a very useful resource. Just ordered the Blandford from ebay anyhow...Thanks again hamilton

Hi there: I'm now at the outset of building Corel's Greyhound - a kit whose box looks great but whose plans leave a lot to be desired - especially when it comes to rigging - there is no rigging plan for this kit, so I have to develop one myself.... The lines themselves are not too difficult to identify - the real issue is belaying the lines. Some are obvious - the shrouds, stays and backstays. But elsewhere things get murky, e.g. 1. The rigging of the bowsprit/jibboom - the instructions show a single bobstay and bowsprit shrouds but nothing on the jibboom...can this be right? What lines would have appeared on the jibboom on an early 18th century 20-gun frigate? 2. The spritsail yard - most lines are represented in some way, but there is no illustration of the jeers...I'm assuming that there would have been spritsail yard jeers below the bowsprit - one on the yard, one on the bowsprit cap. But would deadeyes or blocks have been used? 3. The general belaying of running rigging - it will likely be simply a matter of working out what seems logical and workable on the model...but any guidance that you guys can provide or resources you can suggest on belaying the running lines on a ship of this size (20-gun 6th rate frigate) of this era (early 18th c.) would of of great assistance! I am considering using the belaying plans on my HMS Bellona as a starting point, though obviously it is a very different vessel from several decades later....but at present I'm kind of flying blind and need some kind of reference.....I've also bookmarked Steel's "Art of Rigging", which will be helpful for planning the rigging, though not for belaying the lines... Anyway, thanks in advance for any help on this! I will be sure and share the plan that I develop - both for criticism, commentary and (hopefully) to help those who come to this kit in the future.... hamilton

Thanks Augie! I'm hoping it will - I'll be sure to publish it here for the benefit of anyone seeking to build this kit in the future.... hamilton

Thanks BE - this is very helpful hamilton

Hi there: I've been looking to buy the Caldercraft Supply from Cornwall Model Boats and noticed that on the pages that advertises the Supply, under "Customers who bought this item also bought"...it lists "HMS Supply Brass photo-etch set".... Does this mean that the photo etched parts do not come with the kit? It seems strange that they would sell just this one item separately from the kit, so maybe I'm just misreading - I was hoping to figure this out before taking the leap....Thanks in advance hamilton

Hi there: I've spent a bit of time this past weekend getting deeper into the Greyhound and I have to say the deeper I go the more I realise exactly how vague and unsatisfactory the plans and illustrated instructions are....there is no plan sheet for the rigging - this is all covered in a set of very disappointing drawings which often indicate little about how the lines are to be belayed and breed a lot of confusion....I began today to make my belaying plan - perhaps not essential to do before launching into the build, but why not? I need a break from actual building, but since I can't seem to keep away from the kits, I might as well do something. In beginning my plan I've already noticed several omissions and errors in the plans/instructions....more to come I suppose....anyway, my past experience of Corel is being soundly defeated on this one....I think someone warned me that this one would be frustrating....anyways....we'll begin in earnest next week.....