iMustBeCrazy

8 minutes ago, oakheart said:

I am now redrawing my cad model based on ZAZ7361, am I correct in thinking that you and Allen now think this is the best drawing to work from

Speaking for myself (although I think Allan is mostly in agreement) ZAZ7361 with the lower transom from the book drawing, no washboards and the slightly heaver scantlings of the book drawing (it doesn't really matter at our scales) is the best representation.

11 minutes ago, Draque said:

My problem is that I can only get metric scales from the local office supplies store and these plans are in that other system.

Michael, I produced a PDF with some scale rules sometime back, you may have to adjust your printer scale to get them right but they are the right price:

27 minutes ago, Draque said:

At 1/24 (the scale of the plans) that gives about 62mm and 41mm.

Ok, I get 3" (76.2mm) at the thickest for the garboard but I can easily see how one might get 2 1/2" (63.5mm) and 1 5/8" (41.125mm) so I would say the plans are to scale (at least horizontally) and your measurements are pretty good.

48 minutes ago, Draque said:

Well, that seems obvious now.

The obvious I can do, your other questions probably not. I've mostly looked a Revenue Cutters and Boats.

What distance do you get between the arrows? Not really sure why, gut feeling perhaps, but I would expect planking around or slightly greater than 2" (50mm). But I'm certainly no expert.

G'day Michael, I'm only guessing here but:

1/ Inside otherwise 15 would come to the outside edge of the keel.

2/ The distance between the arrows but the garboard is thicker at the keel.

3/

20 minutes ago, oakheart said:

I was planning on having some kind of 'mold' like they do with the kit models, in fact like you did with your 16 footer

They are useful, make sure everything is square and stays that way. I'm currently redrawing my frames as effectively 3 drawings for each station (midships side of the futtocks, at the station line and the other side of the floors) then I can start working on the jig design.

As your ribs/frames are centered on the station lines you need to make them to fit their widest dimension (midship edge) not the station line dimension so they can be faired..

3 hours ago, oakheart said:

Hope this style of log is okay?

It's fine Tim.

As a first (and scratch!) build treat it as a learning experience. You are trying to learn a lot of new things all at once. Don't be too pedantic about scale and don't rush.

You could brace your frames by making them taller and gluing a brace across them (to be cut off after planking).

Both the forward and aft sides of the frames must touch the rabbit.

You will need to make some frames deeper to allow for fairing (eg. 3 5/64" instead of 2").

41 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Very confusing, at least to me.  There is a lot of misinformation

You aren't alone

It's why I try to clearly differentiate between facts and guesses/beliefs (when I remember to).

A guess re the drawings is that it was up to the ship/captain to rig the boats (perhaps within limits) and the mast at the bow was common to the then current choices which seem to be:

Main at the bow, mizzen at the transom. Possibly the most common rig from the number of painting and sketches.

Schooner/Lugger, Fore at the bow, main about midships. As you have it above and Steel suggests for Longboats and Launches (although there are several 30ft plus single masted Longboats).

Three masted. Fore, main and mizzen.

Single mast for smaller (under 18ft) boats. And perhaps for those drawings where no mast is shown?

And of course, exceptions to every rule.

No wonder we get confused.

However, we are pretty certain the Bounty launch had two masts at the time of the mutiny (although three is possible, but very doubtful), a main and a fore.

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

This may very well have been the case  but as the launch was single masted when built, then modified during the Bounty voyage to the South Pacific

Allan, I still have been unable to find anything that supports either of these suggestions.

The closest to the single mast idea I can find comes from McKay but a cutter rig on a mast that far forward makes little sense.

None of Bligh's writings or logs that I can find ever mention working on the rigging of any of the boats during the voyage (with the exception of the fitting two shrouds to each mast after the mutiny). There are mentions of "carpenters working on launch" or "carpenters working on boats", in one instance to repair damage incurred during a storm, but just as "I'm keeping the crew busy" type log notes.

I'd love to know what your source is.

7 hours ago, allanyed said:

The only reference as to length is Bligh's request to replace the 20 foot launch with a 23 foot launch.  The plans you and I have been referencing are for 23 foot launches and they do fit the time frame.

Allan, Bligh wrote "The Size of the Boat was 23 feet from Stem to Stern and Rowed Six Oars" in a letter to Banks (fact 8). I'm fairly happy that the drawing in Bligh's books (RMG ZAZ7848) is a good representation of the Bounty Launch and that ZAZ7361 is an evolution of that based on Bligh's experience. But I could be wrong.

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

The Medway Longboat is of course much different from the boat that you and Craig are discussing

She certainly is Ollie. (Laurel and Hardy).

8 hours ago, allanyed said:

I have yet to find a detailed contemporary rigging plan and would sure welcome one!

Me too!

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

Paintings and drawings of two masted lug rigged boats in hid book (see cover painting) show masts further apart than sketch above.

They show a Main and Mizzen, a common rig on boats, but Bligh makes the following notes in his log:

1/ It was about 8 o’clock at Night when I bore away under a reefed Lug foresail

2/ under close reefs Fore Sl. & Main Sail

So the Launch had Main and Fore masts with a lug sail on the fore and probably (but not certainly) the main.

3 hours ago, allanyed said:

I am still debating if there would be a single shroud for each mast on each side, or two as on the Medway model.

Allan, after a bit of headbanging I have the following to offer.

Using the Steel tables in Boats of Men-of-War:

Looking at "The dimensions of rigging........." pages 98/99 we find it based on ship classes not boat lengths so we have to find a class of ship that had a 23ft launch. On to "Boat establishments 1670-1800" on page 57.

Note there is no mention of launches before 1780 and as of Nov 1780 Launches are to replace Longboats.

So we find that in 1781 fifth rate 36s & 32s have a 23ft or 24ft launch.

Back to pages 98/99.

And we find no Launches listed even though they were to replace Longboats starting 14 years earlier.

So we'll use the Longboat info for 36s or 32s which both give:

Shrouds-  4 off, 3" rope, iron thimble 16 fathoms.

 Laniard - 1" rope 8 fathoms.

Stay - 1 off, 3 1/2" rope, iron thimble 5 fathoms.

 Laniard - 1" rope 2 fathoms.

Note: the lengths in red were omitted from Boats of Men-of-War. They seem to include some spare rope.

So, 4 shrouds means 2 per mast each with a thimble at the end.

I assume that the shroud laniards run from the boat up through the thimble back to the boat giving a 2:1 pull. Where the stay goes, probably from the main mast but........

However, there is no mention of shrouds or stays for any boat type but Longboats and Bligh's wording is not clear. But if shrouds already existed and attached with laniards as above then there would already have been support for the canvas splash screens. It's still a puzzle.

8 hours ago, allanyed said:

LIke below?

Allan, something like this seems the norm:

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-67278

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-68522

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-248094

Shrouds seem optional?

38 minutes ago, clearway said:

craig comes to the rescue again

I would hardly say that.

There is also a later note: "Sailmakers mending the Awnings and Boats coverings."

On 12/10/2022 at 3:20 AM, Rking said:

I reckon there'd only be so much bailing you'd be willing to do before you'd bodge some sort of cover together for them

I was just reading Bligh's log and came across this:

Saturday, Jan. 12, 1788

8:00 am Employed about a Variety of necessary duties for the ship & fitted Boats Coverings.

So, they used covers of some sort in 1788.

52 minutes ago, allanyed said:

1:16, now that will be awesome.   I would love to go that route, but I was thinking the 1:48 or even 1:64 would be useful to some folks needing a boat for their ship.

Well, I have the Model Shipways version in that scale which is why I built this cutter in the same scale, but I now know that there are too many errors in it so I think I will build a more accurate one.

Although I can easily re-scale my drawings, at smaller scales construction techniques dictate the accuracy one I can achieve.

That said, if anyone wants a different scale 16ft cutter let me know.

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

with the details you will be able to achieve

Unfortunately that will depend on historically accurate knowledge.

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Now I am having second thoughts, but for a pinnace or longboat.

Well, I guess that next after the launch should be a 20ft cutter giving the full set.

Thanks Allan,

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

In my case, I am working on the 23 foot launch again.

I think that's where I'm going too, but in 1:16.

Drawings as promised, they don't show everything as I've left out the simpler bits. Page 1 is for scaling your prints plus some angle gauges for fairing the moulds. I apparently didn't draw strake 2 but it's basically a rectangle with the ends shaped to fit so it shouldn't be a problem.

I haven't drawn the thwarts or mast support but those are pretty basic. The wood I used is metric, you will have to make your own adjustments for imperial thicknesses.

I've provided two versions for A4 or Legal sized paper. Let me know if printer margins are a problem or if I've missed anything.

This log is the 'instructions' but I'm happy to answer questions.

16ft Cutter 1in16 A4.pdf 16ft Cutter 1in16 Legal.pdf

Well, the lads got a coat of paint on the interior the other day but the next two days were too hot for painting. So I fitted the thwarts and knees, tapered the mast a little and made the last two oars.

Yesterday the lads finished painting the hull and this morning I painted the oar blades.

I think all that's left is to tidy up the drawings and post them.

Well, I did get a little more done, another oar and the tiller:

Oh, and a little more playing around:

No physical work going on as I pinched a nerve in my wrist, it's getting better though.

Meanwhile, a virtual diorama:

Update time:

Knees are all finished but not fitted (except the transom). Ironwork is done, fitted and functional but needs the paint touched up.

What has slowed me down is trying to come up with oars that I like (and can make). I think I'm happy with the look but still need to make a set that match.

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

Your dimensions for the frames and spacing looks close, and  superior to the framing on ships' boats found elsewhere.

I'm happy enough, and yes, I dislike seeing frames on cutters and ribs on launches or frames poking through as knees.

Thanks Allan. However, the ribs are spaced at 12" where 8" would probably be more realistic. Also contemporary sketches show I could have used heavier ribs. Oh well, live and learn.

Some progress, there's about an hour in each knee.

It feels like I'm getting close now. Just knees, rudder, sail?, oars, cleat, mast clamp then clear coat.

More progress and a little more mocking up.