Thanasis
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Lateen yards – inside or outside of the shrouds?
Thanasis replied to catopower's topic in Masting, rigging and sails
Hi. To add my two pennies' worth . I have also read (I'm not familiar to sailing), that when the wind is at the stern, a lateen sail at longwise of the boat, turns out to be weak to take full this advantage. So some mariners prefer a "freely" attached lateen yard-sail (outside of the shrouds) so that they could set it and use it as square one. See the shrouds with pulleys and the lateen sail at square use in a Trabaccolo vessel. Thx ..
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Lateen yards – inside or outside of the shrouds?
Thanasis replied to catopower's topic in Masting, rigging and sails
See there... https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k11684265.texteImage Thx- 14 replies
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Another beautiful model of yours. If I can guess, it seems like you have the whole picture in your mind and you proceed in an artistic presentation like a painter in a canvas. Congratulation. Thx
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From an old pc processor. Thx
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Sail cringle holes with eyelet
Thanasis replied to modeller_masa's topic in Masting, rigging and sails
Hi. How about these "cringles"... Thx
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Hi all. New information came up for the first photo of my initial post. I really don't know how this photo mixed up with the older ones of my archive and feeling responsible for this mistake allow me to make the correction. The photo shows a Gr type of hull known as "Trechantiri" while her rigging, as many mentioned, it's a "staysail schooner", non existence in Gr. traditional rigs though. That because the first owner of her was an English person who built the boat right after the ww2 in Greece, with the hull he liked but he rather found suitable to set the "staysail schooner" type as rigs. You might have heard the name of her which is "Strormie Seas". A photo of her in a magazine's cover in 1958. Thx and my apologies.
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@Tony Hunt. As I wrote, these types of vessels-rigging were shown in North Aegean Sea at early of 20th century and I guess the photos were taken between 1912 and 1917, around Lemnos Island. By that time, Ottoman Empire had lost western territories as a result of the Balkan wars 1912-1913. So among others Gr islands of North Aegean Sea were set free and many of former Turkish vessels had come to Greeks. As the Navy officer H. M. Denham in his article "Aegean Caiques 1915-1980" (The Mariner's mirror) also writes, “the local shipping was heterogeneous in type of hull and rig". However, even by his own eyes ascertainment (he claims had visited Lemnos in 1915), he doesn't quote (naming) any kind of unusual rigging, but just staying describing the typical ones. In fact, the last photo in my first post, is from his article and been titled "Turkish Trehandiri-a very strange and rare rig. Mudros (Lemnos) 1915". (My comment, I doubt even for the hull as Trechantiri, because the shape of the bow). So what we see could be interventions and "patches" from Gr sailors, or remnants of an initial type of rigging, but I thought to give it a try, looking for a suitable name. Eventually, after also this discussion and realizing that it can't be given a name to all these motley riggings, I think I'll borrow the name of another vessel of that time, settee-rigged and no other info. That is "Savouradiko"* meaning in Gr, more or less, something no worth to deal with (discard-junks) Many thanks *It comes from Italian word of “zavorra” meaning the ballast of a ship, therefore something worthless.
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Thank you for your time and your valuable information. Too many answers to reply though, so allow me not to reply to each one of you… Starting from the term “Jackass-Rig”. There was also here (Gr) a similar term “mule” (or «bastard”) but it was referring to mix up hulls i.e. where a vessel was built with a different bow or stern from what it should be for its type… And although the “Jackass-Rig” seems convenient, it doesn’t give the picture or the actual rigging for each vessel. The term “Galiot” again is not referring to the rigs of a vessel but rather to the shape of hull not to mention me too, that there is also a confusion since I have met that, from nation to nation was also called “Fusta” and “Semi Galley”. At least for the Greeks, the term “Galiot” (Galiota) was used in a vessel similar to Chebeck, back in 1800. “Polacca-Polacre” (see also Pollaccone) yes it’s a rigging term, although it’s not certain whether refers to a two or three masts vessel with square or triangular sails. I think it was-is used for naming something close to that rigging and give a general idea to someone not familiar to the terms-names of other nations' use…That’s why in my model (Thanks Tony) I name the rigging as “a version of Polacra”. I would hardly accept this term for the vessel in photo no2, since to me looks like misset topsail Schooner or misset Bombarda… So about the term “Bombarda” and “Bombarda Sabatiera”. ”Bombarda” in Gr naval bibliography, is describing either the shape of the hull, or the type of the rigging which was two masts, with four square sail in front 2-3 staysails and a mainsail in aft. On the other hand “Bombarda Sabatiera” refers only to the type of rigging where in a type of hull (usually Bombarda and Trechantiri hulls) there are two masts with three square sails in front and a lug sail in aft. I must admit I didn't expect this interesting and the long discussion, but at least for me, it turns to be a good chance to refresh some of my knowledge… Thx
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Dear all happy New Year and thank you for participating this puzzle. As most of you I can recognize typical ships' riggings and name the type of sails. I do can see Schooner types with something less or more (topsail-staysail...) but what I'm looking fore is how I could call them in a conversation or in writing. That's why I quest for a "proper name". For the history these types of vessels-rigging were shown in North Aegean Sea at early of 20th century and I would define their origin mainly as Ottoman. As about the third photo for which there is much thinking and being a bit familiar, I see an older or "Ottoman" version of a "penna rigging" (yelkenli çektirme in Turkish) (Bermuda rig). I call it "Ottoman" version since to my knowledge there was also a newer or "Greek" version (mostly was used by Greeks) where the triangular sail (penna) is attached on the mast, instead of on an additional spar. But here, we might have a third version…More info information might be retrieved from the sketches of an ANZAC Soldier in Lemnos Island…) See photos So, I know it's difficult to guess what those sailors were thinking, nor to find the original name of the rigs, but I'm trying to give at least a "short" explanatory name. Thx
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Happy New Year to all. Could someone identify or at least give a proper name in these rigs... Many thanks
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Hi. I used to build ships in bottles many years before. So once, I accepted the challenge to built a ship in a vertical bottle and because I was young and impatient, the result came up rather poor. But allow me to say these. The method is the same as in a horizontal bottle, although you had to transform a bit your tools. And you are not "pulling the string straight up"... Back then, all of my strings were either "dead" (no pieces to pull outside the bottle) or there were only a few, that were going in holes in the bowsprit from above and were coming out from beneath. So after they were glued, I had to "push the strings down" before to cut them. For this I was using an ombrela's rib properly shaped, keeping each string down while I was cutting it with another tool. Last advice, the old one. Choosing the bottle make the test and try to read a piece of news paper through the glass. If you can read the most of it, the bottle passes the test, otherwise it will hide your work. Thank you
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My golden rule when I have to build many same items, is to be innovative and creative avoiding working on one of those at a time. Thx
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Hi. It could be also called as "square-top, or fat-head, mainsail" https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/know-how-all-about-mainsails Thx
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Well, in fact there is a way to correct a mistake and remember it without feeling bad...Change its artistic presence.... Thx https://modelshipworld.com/topic/4157-my-greek-state-of-mind/?tab=comments#comment-118069
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This is really nice work. Clean painting lines, nice hand crafts and impressive bow ornament. Congratulations. Thx
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You're right George. There is a transom in the stern although the bow follows the shape of a typical trechantiri's hull. Well, it was not common but yes there were cases where in Gr. traditional shipbuilding, transformations appeared in a typical shape of a hull. These hulls-boats were called "Bastards" or "Mule" and were being built for certain use purposes ... However I haven't hear or found anything about a Trechantiri with transom in Aegean Sea. So I can only guesses for what reason this occurred in some Gr. boats in Tarpon Springs. One could be that it's been kept the transom from the original Symi's hull Skaphe, avoiding the narrow bow of her (as it was "Tserniki" hull with pointed prow), gaining this way space. Another one could be the adjustment in the local sea conditions. After all, you know the Gr. innovative spirit... As about the rigging and although must be an engine in the boat, it's been kept Skaphe's mizzen. I guess again for the same reason as the initial one, where when a diver was at the seafloor, the captain (the boat) had to follow him by skillful handling of the tiller and the mizzen... Thx for the rostrum...
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Hi George. To secure your confidence on where a mizzen sail could be placed, allow me say this in short... Once when I was dealing with a model of a peculiar Gr. sponge fishing vessel from Symi Island and seeing old models and engravings where the mizzen sail was set on the handrails of the stern, I had the same doubts as you. It was after a few years when some photos from Tarpon Springs and the sponge fishing boats of the Gr community, revealed the truth. The shipbuilding tradition was transferred there and had been kept until recently. Ps: The model of Skaphe is not mine… Thx
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That's clever...These gaps on the rod make the imitation real... Thank you
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Nice work on deck's items... Especially I like the hinges of the hatch. What are they made of? Thx
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About the "trincarino" and the frames, it's ok Gb. I have been also through these misjudgments and as my teacher used to say: "I'm sure you will remember it in a next model".🙂 Well, my idea for representing of hairy cup-cover on the steampost is simple but I think quite effective. Take a pipecleaner and make some loops on a rod close to the stempost's dimentions... You can leave it this way, or you can cover the rod with thin paper, place some white glue and make the loops . If you don't like the usual color, you can use water colors and a paintbrush to make some black highlights. Thx
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Gb, sorry for the space abuse but just for the knowledge. http://www.veniceboats.com/trabaccolo-pelliccione.htm Thx
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As far I can remember there was such a discussion (lost with Msw1) about that fleece, in which the main viewpoint was that it used to be set there, to protect the sails from the long stempost (?) @Gb If you follow the "curly hair" version on the stempost, I have a very good Idea. Thx
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Take a look there: https://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/Italia2/index2.html at no 117 and in the next page, from no 188 to 202. But I'm sure you will find interesting all the sketches... Thx
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