Hr. Ms. O 19 1938 by Piet - FINISHED - scale 1:50 - submarine of the Royal Navy Netherlands in service 1939 - 1945

[PacificCrossRoads]

To avsjerome2003. Vertical teeth for cutting anti-submarine nets ...

Edited November 20, 2013 by PacificCrossRoads

[Piet]

My sincere and grateful thanks to everyone who visited my build log and your "like" votes.

 

@ Anthony, Boris and Brian answered your question.  It was primarily aimed at cutting through anti shipping nets and cables.  I am not so sure about mine anchoring cables though because of their vertical position and tend to be pulled down and forward with the boat.  That's just my engineering mind thinking    But who am I to make a definitive statement, I'm an airplane guy   

 

The question Boris has for me is where I found the data to show that the O 19 had indeed net / cable cutters brought me to my picture archive.  I remembered that I saw them in several places but could not place where   I'll blame it on old age - - -   I guess though that with my one-track mind and now being busy with other items, such as the numbers and letter and the conning tower it slipped my mind.  

 

In any case, I could kick myself because right there near my work bench is a large copy of the deck layout and the profile drawings.  On these are the net / cable cutters indicated.  There drawings are copies from the original drawings out of the Dutch Navy Archive.  That was the first clue and then I have photos of the O 19 when she was overhauled and converted to English ammo size and replacement parts sometime in 1943.  Reason for the change was that the Japs sunk the Dutch supply ship that serviced the submarine fleet.  Long story there.  This overhaul was done Falmouth, Scotland.  

It is possible that they installed the "teeth" then because I have several photos with the O 19 in Scotland where she has the "teeth".   Then I have a photo with the O 19 surfacing after a test dive in Scotland waters and there she shows the "teeth."  

 

The crux of the matter is that yes, she did have the net / cable cutters at some time after 1943.  Even though the original drawings show her to have "teeth" installed but that was not done when she was being build in Schiedam, the Netherlands.  She also did not have "teeth" when My father served on her from 1938 to the end of 1940.  Remember that my father was promoted to Oppershipper (Adjudant) on January 1, 1941 and had to be transferred to the cruise Hr. Ms. Java at that same day.  Sooooh - - - he may not have served on the O 19 with the net / cable cutter "teeth."   

 

Now, I can either remove them all and show her as she was when my father served on her or leave them on.  Removing them may cause some damage to certain areas that I like to avoid.  It may show but with some careful touching up and new paint - - - ?  I really have to think very hard on this.  I spend quite some time this morning just looking at the model and meditating, it's no an easy decision to make.

 

There are also other changes made to the boat during her overhaul in Scotland that changed the silhouette of the boat.  They removed the deck launch torpedo launcher and the doors, then they removed the forward AA gun placement and made the lower part and the cockpit in one line.  They also changed the exhaust pipe arrangement.

I am not making these changes though, she'll be pretty much like my father knew her, except then for possibly the "teeth."     

 

Let me attach a few pics to show the O 19 with "teeth."   

 

This is a copy of the original drawing out of the Dutch Navy Archive in de Hague.  This is what Remco went for in our quest for the anchors.  It only shows the mushroom anchor.  Please look at the "teeth" on the antenna bracing.

 

This is another copy Remco got for me.  This shows the staboard side where the side anchor should be but is not shown.  Also note the old I D number, still with the K for Kolonien (Colonies) and the traditional Roman numerals.  This method was changed to designating all future subs with an O.  The change took place in 1938 where The O was for domestic waters and the K for the colonies.  Again, please note the "teeth" all the way around to the keel.

 

This is also a copy of a drawing from the Dutch Navy Archive where it shows "teeth" on the propeller bearing housing / dive plane supports as well as the vertical keel / rudder brace.

 

This is cut-away drawing with annotations.  It also shows the "teeth."

 

This shows the O 19 in Scottish waters, sometime in 1943.  She has "teeth" 

 

Another photo of the O 19 in Scotland after her overhaul and modification, she has "teeth."

 

I think this should suffice for now with data that the O 19 indeed had the net / cable cutters installed, but only some time after 1941.  This may have been a British requirement because of the reasons explained above and to be to serve the Dutch boats in Australia.  

 

 

Cheers,

[augie]

I never realized the extent to which teeth could be used on a sub.  Thanks for researching and posting.

[mtaylor]

Piet,

 

Your picture where it has the "K' designation.  You said the "K"s were changed to "O"s in 1938.  In my mind, that says that cutters were there from the beginning.

[Piet]

Hello Augie, thanks for dropping in.  Yup, but and there is a big but in my mind.  I still have no report from any sub operation where this was actually successfully executed, i.e. cutting through a steel net barrier under water.

As far as cutting mine cables, well just try to gut a line or cable that is kinda loose at one end.  It tends to be dragged down with the boat and then - - - boom.  It's much like pushing a wet noodle.   I read one report of a US sub that sneaked into a Jap harbor through a minefield and back again.  They hugged the bottom and moved ever so slowly and when they heard the cable scraping against the side they would steer away from it.  They made it.

 

Cheers., 

 

[Piet]

Hello mark,  yes, the net / cable cutters were already employed way before WW II on subs, including the Dutch subs.  I have pics of the K XVIII and some other K boats before WW II with these things.  For some reason they were not put on the O 19 and her sister boat the O 20 during manufacture.  The drawings clearly indicate it.  This could be a case of hurry up and let's finish these things but that doesn't fly either because the O 21 , O 22, O23 and O 24 had them and they were completed before the Nazis invaded Holland and sailed to England for completion.

 

My father ran into many problems with shoddy workmanship and ran into a confrontation with their management and the Navy Board.  He may have decided to accept the boat and complete it in the Dutch East Indies, which is a real possibility.  I have a picture of the O 19 possibly taken in 1941 and it shows the "teeth."  We would never know for sure because I can't ask him.

 

I think that the Germans employed these during WW I but am not sure.  Will have to look into it.  

 

Cheers,

[trippwj]

Good evening, Piet.  I was just doing some searching a moment ago on this and the germans did use them on their U-boats in WW-I.

 

A description of WW-I German submarines see O. N. I. Publication No. 32 - GERMAN SUBMARINES IN QUESTION AND ANSWER, APRIL, 1918

at http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/onipubno32.htm

 

I think the reasoning behind so many teeth on so many surfaces was to provide the capability to cut through both horizontally and vertically when attempting to penetrate the net.  As to when O-19 got her teeth, that is a tough one to resolve!

[FreekS]

Piet,

 

On my K-XIV class I saw the cable cutters only on pictures after the conversion in 1943 in US, where they received a new cable cut system. however the drawing shows the cutters, and the prewar pictures show a metal strip on which I think the cutters can be installed. could it not be the cable cutters were carried by the sub, but only installed when needed on specific missions?

 

One other point - on the KXVIII the existing models in the Navy Museum show a red underwater hull. Other modelers had painted their KXVIII grey. Being unsure, I wrote to the NIMH (Netherlands institute of Military history) they reported they though the below water ship was dark grey, not red.

My model first was red - which was great to keep it in sight underwater, but has now been painted dark grey. I don't profess to know the real colors.

 

Freek

[Piet]

Thanks every one for visiting and your likes!

 

@ Wayne, thanks for the URL on the German submarine history, very interesting indeed.  I have made a decision on the net / cable cutters on my model.  It seems that at this point in time no definitive info is available on when the O 19 received them.  We do know that the build drawings show them and that earlier models had them.  Also, I have a photo of the O 19 that is labeled 1941 where she does sport the cutters.  I am going by the premise that the O 19 received the cutters sometime between 1940 or 1941 at the Navy base in Surabaya when hostilities with Japan could be expected soon.

I remember my father saying "we are going on the Jap hunt" when he had to go out on patrol.  

I think that my guess is as good as anyone else's guess.  So, they are going to stay.

 

@ Freek, thanks for your input, appreciate it.  Well, yes, it's possible that they stored the cutters below deck for future use, there is space for them as well as in the con under the AA deck.  Again, at this point all we can do is guess.  I like to think that they installed them just before the declaration of war.  Before my father was transferred to the cruise "Java" he did sail with the O 19 as part of escort duty to and from Singapore and Colombo.

Regarding the colors - - - if the person at NIMH thinks that below the waterline is grey that to me is not definitive.  He is also guessing.  My friend and mentor, Gino den Ridder has contacts in the Netherlands with inside info and he said that the O 19 and O 20 were painted in a red color below the waterline, green above the waterline to the deck sheer, and above the deck sheer it was light grey.  I have given the reasons in a previous post and will stick with that.

There is a model of the O 21 in the Navy museum in den Helder where below the waterline it is painted black, above the waterline it's green and above the deck sheer it's light grey.  This boat was also launched before the war in Europe broke out and survived the war in the East Indies.

After the war broke out and all surviving subs escaped to Australia they were painted in darkish grey.  

Thus - - - when most are guessing at the colors I'll stick with what Gino told me he got from his contacts in Holland as well as the model from the manufacturer.

 

Back to the build, today was not productive as far as accomplishing things.  I managed to make the domed lid for the most forward escape hatch and was planning on making the hinges but got side tracked.  I also started to make the ladder for inside the escape hatch but then the lunch bell rang    After lunch I decided to do some more drawing on the conning tower.  That also needs to be done.  My plan is to first show a profile with the location of the escape tubes and gun placements and other stuff.  Then the top view with the same items.  After that I'll do the sketching how I want the framing to be and where.  There are a couple side doors on the starboard side and I like to make them operable.  So, there has to be enough space inside to make it more or less real.  I don't know if I can achieve that but we'll try   

 

Wish all of you the best and happy modeling,

 

[Piet]

Thanks again to all yuns who visited my shipyard and clicked on "like."

 

Today was very productive and fun.  First thing I did was searching for my mast / spar sanding jig but gave up.  I decided to make a new one and post a "how to" to Adriaan's (Andrieke) King of the Mississippi log because he had trouble with breaking his and so did Robbyn.  No problem, it was all done in an hour, with the help of the Admiral Gwen.

After lunch I posted everything on Andrieke's log and was asked by Mark T. to also post it in the how to section of the Forum.  I know that there are other ways to do this but this is a quick, easy and above all, a cheap way.  What else can you expect from a Dutchman, eh?      

 

That gave me some time to finish making the ladder for the forward crew escape hatch tube and the hinges.

This was accomplished before lunch and I could now temporarily put this in place inside the deck structure. Once this assembly is permanently cemented in place there is no way to remove the hinge pin, so I must be sure that everything fits and works.  That'll be for Sunday to determine and for making the final adjustments. then it's on to the other escape tubes.

 

I made a jig to hold all the parts and pieces together to make the ladder.  The clamp doesn't only hold everything down but acts as a heat-sink.  I had to spend some time cleaning off the excess solder.

 

This shows the ladder installed and tack-soldered to the bottom of the tube.  Out of sight out of mind   I also soldered the center hinge on for the domed door.  Prior to attaching it to the tube I filed the round rungs flat for a better and natural appearance 

 

Here is the tube assembly out in place temporarily with the domed door standing by.  I modified my oak die to give it a more prominent dome.  Obviously the edges will shrink and i have to cut a slit into it before putting de die and brass piece in the vise.  This will be covered with a small strip of brass that will also have the outside hinge tubes soldered to it.  I don't know yet how i'm going to tackle the large domed doors for the AA gun tubes.

 

In the meantime i cut two small sections of brass tube for the door hinges and soldered them on. Had to use a heat-sink there as well but it all worked out okay.  here is the entire assembly put together and temporarily put in place in the deck structure.  I forgot to take a pic with the door closed but it looks real good.  I think I'll paint the inside of the tube a light grey.  The bottom of the hole will be flat black.

 

 

This is a shot from another angle, looking aft.  You are probably wondering what that circular mark is for?  Glad you asked.  That's where the future ventilation outlet will be.  It's for exhausting inside stale and hot air to the outside while on the surface through a high capacity electric fan.  I'm not sure yet whether it's in the center of a little towards port.

 

Cheers, 

 

 

[Adrieke]

beautiful Piet

 

and thanks again for taking the trouble to show us your jig

[Jim Lad]

That's very nice, Piet.

 

As for sub colours, I've previously read in accounts of wartime submarine operations (memoirs of crew0 that the subs were painted different colours in different locations to match the usual sea conditions - the idea being to try and make them as difficult to see as possible when running shallow.

 

John

[Piet]

Thanks to everyone for visiting and liking my work, it's appreciated.

 

@ Adriaan, you are quite welcome my friend and I hope you can make use of the idea.

 

@ John (Lad), yup, I have heard and read this as well.  According to what Gino den Ridder told me the O 19 and O 20 being mine laying subs, would operate in coastal waters to block shipping lanes at strategic places.  The Navy thought to paint these two subs as described to blend in with the background.  I really have very definitive knowledge on all the paint schemes the world's navies employed.  It would be an interesting research project though, if I had the time  

 

Cheers, 

[harvey1847]

Beautiful piece of metal Piet!

 

Are you going to add some kind of locking wheel? It looks on the pictures like it has none. Maybe was some kind of interior lock and the preassure door was under this first one. Just thinking. Maybe I´ve seen lots of movies...

 

Happy modelling.

 

Daniel.

[Piet]

Thanks everyone for visiting and your like votes.

 

@ Daniel, negative on the locking wheel.  They had a locking device on the inside with a "strong arm" like handle.  There was no need to close and lock these doors or lids from the outside.  The entire tube is part of the pressure hull as the pics below show and most of the time these boats cruised on the surface and when possible they were kept open for fresh air 

What we see in the movies with someone turning a wheel to close these doors did not happen on these Dutch subs.  It's like what you see on quick change lenses on cameras but instead of rotating the lens you rotate a handle to slide the "bayonet" like gismos into place.  They do have a handle on the outside though to lift them up when topside.

I don't know if I have a close-up pic of that or not, all I wanted to do this evening is find a few pics of the actual escape tubes to show all yuns.

The escape tubes you see on my model are the top ends that are flush with the deck.  The domed door is the only part that sticks outside the deck.  Everything between the pressure hull and the deck is unpressurized and flooded when submerged.  That's a lot of dead water to drag along when submerged.

 

This pic shows a bunch of the escape tubes laying on the ground ready to be lifted up to be installed.  

 

This is a shot from the interior of the boat looking forward to the bow torpedo room and the crew quarters in the foreground. You can see the bottom end of the escape tube with a ladder. I believe it slides up into the tube and latched here to keep it out of the way.

 

This shows the command center being made. This is a part of the pressure hull and inside the lower center part of the conning tower.  This is all sheeted with light steel on the outside for hydrodynamic flow.  In front and behind it is more light structure for the AA gun placements.  I thought i throw this in as well 

 

Here is another shot of an escape tube seen from the inside.

 

This shows the command center installed with an escape tube behind it.

 

Another shot with two escape tubes and the command center in between.

 

Another shot with escape tubes and the command center.

 

 

copy.jpg]

An aerial shot of the same things as shown above.  The deck structure is yet to be installed.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Jim Lad]

Fascinating photos, Piet!

 

John

[PacificCrossRoads]

But it is not escaped tubes, pipes it to raise and lower Pom-Poms ...

Edited November 25, 2013 by PacificCrossRoads

[PacificCrossRoads]

This plans...

Edited November 25, 2013 by PacificCrossRoads

[texxn5]

Wow man, it is looking so good......I need to touch your engineering and metal working skills.  I am going to be building some harpoons for the Morgan.  So you think I would be better off trying to peen the end of a brass rod, or trying to cut out the shape on a piece of flat brass plate and soldering it to a rod to create the tips or points of the harpoon.  At first I considered cutting and soldering, but now I just thought about peening them.  Any suggestions?  It is probably about in line with your teeth for cutting the wires or cables on the O-19.  How would you handle this?

[Piet]

And again, thank you everyone for dropping in and your like votes.

 

Hello Boris, thanks for your comment on the "pom pom's,"  That made me smile      Yes, the AA gun tubes are clearly meant in some of the pics I have shown and they are directly in front and aft of the center conning tower command center.  The access tubes to each AA gun is aft of the AA gun at the aft AA gun deck and between the AA gun and the open portion of the conning tower, this open portion is called "de badkuip" in Dutch or "bathtub" in English.  However, there is a distinct difference between the AA gun tubes and the crew escape tubes.  The AA gun tubes are slightly larger in diameter and they are straight tubes whereas the escape tubes are a little smaller and tapered.  This is only true for the three escape or access tubes and AA gun tubes in the conning tower.  The three escape tubes in the rest of the hull, those coming through the deck structure, are also straight tubes.

 

There is also a difference between the O 16 you have shown and the O 19 and O 20 class boats.  The coning towers are different with different arrangements of these tubes.  The two access tubes to the AA gun deck portions of the O 19 and O 20 have a domed lid / door on the top side as well as a domed lid / door on the pressure hull.  

The reason for having straight tubes for the AA guns is to be able to raise and lower the AA guns that are mounted on a platform for a proper guide and to provide a stable platform to fire them.  

 

My description may be confusing but the working drawings for the O 19 from the Navy Archive should clear it up.  Send me your mailing address again and I'll make copies of what Remco send me, including the propellers   

 

You cannot compare the O 16 with the O 19 and O 20 class boats, they are two different animals 

 

I tried to scan a few drawings Remco send me to show you but they are too light for the scanner to make a decent copy.  However, Remco also send me a jpg of these pics and I'll try to attach it below.

 

Okay, the last few days I was still puttering with the escape tubes on the hull.  I also changed the position of the ladders to make them at 90 degrees to the boat's axis as seems to be indicated on a few photos.  In looking at the drawings, again, they do have a pressure lid / door on the pressure hull as well as one at deck level.  I'll add the handles to the domed lids that are visible but will cement them on.

 

I have also made the telephone buoy and the forward ventilation exhaust tube.  The telephone buoy has a cord attached to it so it can be deployed in case of an emergency.  Pics will be coming

 

Well, again not much to show for two days of work but what yuns don't see is that I'm still working at the drafting table to draw up the plans for the conning tower.

 

Okay, enough of my jabbering, here are a few pics.

 

This is part of the JPG pic Remco send me.  It shows the details of the aft AA gun deck with the tubes.

 

Here we see the aft torpedo room escape hatch.  It is now cemented in.  Just forward of it is the emergency telephone with buoy.  I'll have the Admiral assist in making a picture with it deployed.

 

This is looking forward with the forward torpedo room escape hatch and the ventilation exhaust pipe.  Sorry, I made it static, no fancy stuff with this thing 

 

Cheers, 

[texxn5]

Your metal work is no more than Brilliant......I wish I had your skills....you make it look so easy....looks exceptionally good my friend.  By the way.....where's the AA's????

[Piet]

Hello John,

 

I would make the harpoon tips out of copper wire.  You can buy some at a DIY store or electrical store.  First heat the bare wire to a dull glow and then immediately dunk it in cold water.  This'll make it soft.  Then you can peen it flat and file the harpoon shape in it.  You can keep each harpoon tip attached to the copper wire as a handle for handy shaping    For the handle or shaft you can use brass rod and soft solder it all together.  Peen a small part of the brass rod a little flat for easier soldering and appearance.  The peening of the copper wire will harden it some, which is good.

 

Brass flat stock is okay to use but a little more difficult in shaping.  I would not use brass rod to peen it flat, unless you anneal it again.   

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[texxn5]

Thank you Piet.  I knew you could have an answer.  I never thought about copper.  What gauge wire would you reccomend.  I have some 14 ga, and maybe some smaller ..... I forgot that copper is more pliable than brass.  I'll play around and see what I get.  Thank you my friend....moving on....Proost good Ale again...

[texxn5]

Hhi Piet, as I'm thinking about this, I realize 14 ga., is way too big.  I'm thinking maybe 22 ga., and peening that into fine flat sheets.  If I leave it attached to the 22 ga. wire, it might be about right.  If not might have to do some soldering.  Any thoughts at 1:64 scale?  The problem with 22 ga. seems to me to be able to keep it straight without curves and bends as it is soft.  Mine is real soft like phone wire.

[Piet]

Hi John,

 

Let me answer or comment on this issue on your build log, in case future Morgan builders have the same question.  I hope you don't mind 

 

Cheers, 

[Piet]

Hello everyone and thanks to all y'all who came visiting and clicked "like."  I do really appreciate it!

 

@ Mark, 

 

I spend most of the day making small things, which was very time consuming.  I made bollards!  Yippee!  Hmmmm, exiting work - - - well, not really but necessary.  I am slowly running out of "stuff" to make on top of the deck and should be able to start work on the conning tower!       

 

There will be a few things i'll wait with till the con is up like the mine loading dolly rails, the torpedo loading gantries, all the hatch doors.  I'm afraid that they'll be in the way and could get damaged.

Even de bollards I made and cemented to the deck may suffer but I'll just have to be extra careful.

 

Progress posts may also slow down some because i still need to make a few more sketches for the con as working ideas before I start cutting wood for it.  I think that I'll make the tubes for the AA guns, the crew access tubes and the periscope tubes.  The last ones will be the outer tubes for the periscopes to slide in and out of.  I need to think ahead some more regarding the AA gun tubes, the periscopes, engine exhaust and intake for "snorkeling," and a few other items.

 

Okay here is today's progress.

 

I made four mooring devises from brass flat bars of .8 mm and about 7 mm long, two for the stern and two for the bow.  They were soldered to small brass plates.  When these pics were taken they were still not cemented to the deck.  Next I cut 12 small pieces from a 3 mm dowel to about 8 mm lengths for bollards.  These are also just standing there for the pic.  There are two bollard pairs on the aft deck, two in the center and two on the forward deck.

 

The bollard pair on the foredeck, also still unfinished.

 

Here are the two mooring devises on the bow section of the foredeck.  Any nautical person can please tell me what these thingies are called.  We don't have them on airplanes you know.  Andy?    Anyone?

 

This shows the completed bollards.  This was a slow and painstaking job.  Holding these tine gizmos between thumb and fore finger and then using a small rattail file to file a groove in the center and then with a half round file to make the groove a little wider.  Then rounding off the top and shortening them some.  The final hight is 6 mm.  In retrospect I could have chucked larger lengths in the lathe to make them and cut off what I needed but that's now hindsight.  besides, I was afraid that it would split off some of the wood at the top or bottom.  In any case, they don't look half bad on the boat.  I'll try to smooth them out a little more with some fine sandpaper on a dowel.  Trying not to fuzz them up or break them loose

 

Cheers,

[mtaylor]

Sweet work, Piet.  I think those curvy things are cleats. 

 

Edit... thanks Andy for correcting me. 

[realworkingsailor]

Sorry Mark, they would be fairleads, not cleats.

 

Andy

[Piet]

Thanks Andy!  Are they for holding chain links?  Or are they to guide lines to the bollards?

And yes, there are fairleads in aircraft and some look similar, just different enough to throw me off, that's why it didn't light up my dim lightbulb in the brain 

 

Cheers,

 

[realworkingsailor]

If you look back at some of your prototype photos, you can see them in use. Yes,, they are simply smooth guides for passing mooring lines through to the bitts. The open top just makes it easier to place or remove a line, rather than having to run the whole of the line through. You see that style more on smaller vessels with lighter mooring lines. Large ships with heavy lines need full fairleads with no open tops (generally speaking, a stronger fairlead).

 

Andy