HMCSS Victoria 1855 by BANYAN - 1:72

[BANYAN]

Hi John, messages crossed in the air   Great photo which helps me with another issue the location/positioning of the bollards   I don't think she had these sheet winches as they are not mentioned in the Contract which is specific for most items fitted.  I also agree that the Jarvis winches would not have been fitted.  However, the Victoria while built as a warship in many features and fittings was manned as a merchant ship and had many labour-saving features fitted.  This was one of the main reasons she was Barque rigged also.

 

many thanks for the feedback and info, it certainly helps me to focus in on the most likely candidates of the equipment to be fitted/shown.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Jim Lad]

Pat,

 

I've been able to find very little about halyard winches - they were a late innovation and perhaps not nearly as popular as brace winches, as many later ships seem to have had capstans to handle their halyards.  The winches were obviously more labour saving as the halyard didn't have to be transferred from the winch to a pin rail - it simple stayed cailed on the winch.

 

The two drawings are from Harold Underhill's "Masting and Rigging" - an truly excellent resource for late square rig - and are a sketch of a halyard winch and a diagrammatic view of the run of the halyard to a winch (example C).

 

The photo is from Basil Greenhill's "Seafaring Under Sail" and shows the after side of one of the masts of an in-named four masted barque.  The photo has obviously been taken to show the brace winch, but at the bottom you can see most of two halyard winches sitting side by side. 

 

Sorry I haven't got any more for you, but if anything else turns up I'll certainly let you know.

 

John

 

[Sailor1234567890]

The Jarvis brace winch was not invented until I believe the mid 1880s so in 1855 it was most certainly NOT included in the deck gear on board. The photo in post 64 shows a Jarvis brace winch, two halyard winches, and a pump in the back just by the mast. I don't believe any winches like either of those would have been fitted to her in 1855. I don't know what types of mechanical assistance was available in the time she was built but I suspect you have more searching to do unless the ones you pointed out for mining are close enough to what was there. 

[BANYAN]

Hi John, thankyou very much for your help and the very useful drawings; much appreciated.  I think that is the way I will go and there is enough info there I think to make a start on drawings - just need to determine the size of one component to get the rest   It looks like they were about the same height as the Jarvis (Brace) winches for which there are some detail drawings according to Eberhard.  If I can track that down I should be able to knock up something   Thanks for positioning drawing also which confirms my earlier thoughts of it being offset if singular

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Hi Sailor123 - thanks, what you say is the tought I first proposed - she would have some sort of halyard (hoisting) winch which I think is much like that from Harold Underhill as John as also confirmed.  Victoria was fitted with some very 'leading-edge' equipment including flushing heads, rigmaiden lanyards, Browne Capstan, etc .  Based on Underhill the halyard winch was available in the 1850s so I think this is a safe assumption.  that said, i will keep searching

 

Thanks for the feedback; all input is very much appreciated and helps me get to a much more likely equipment fit.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Jim Lad]

Pat, I'm sure I've got drawings of a Jarvis brace winch in one of my books somewhere, so if you have trouble sourcing them, give me a yell.

 

John

[BANYAN]

Thanks John, there is actually a drawing of a Jarvis Winch in Underhill but it does not show any dimensions (same style as the halyard winch drawing).  It the dimensions that I need, especially height to give me some perspective for the halyard winch.  In all of the photos and lithographs I have of the ship, nowhere does the top of these halyard winches appear to show over the very low bulwarks, so either, the artist did not bother (yet they included the belfry eyc), or, they were quite small/low?

 

Thanks again for your assistance on this.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Sailor1234567890]

I have a french book about sailing ships of iron and steel from France in the 1880s-1930s. There are a few images of brace winches there as well. I'll see what I can do about that for you but I don't think Jarvis winches or anything even remotely like them was in use back then. 

[BANYAN]

Hi Sailor and thanks for that.  Agree about period Jarvis winches were used - I was suggesting that based on the photo of the Jarvis and Halyard winch (in the same shot) that John provided earlier, the two winches appear to be of about the same height.  Therefore, if I can get the rough height of the Jarvis winch (which Eberhard suggested may be available as tech drawings with dimensions), then I can approximate the height of the halyard winches which were around back then   It's a starting point at least unless I can find a better solution.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Jim Lad]

Pat,

 

The drawing below is one of the detail drawings of a Jarvis brace winch in the Anatomy of the Ship series "The Four Masted Barque Lawhill".  I think it will have enough detail for comparison - especially given the scale shown at the bottom.

 

John

 

 

[BANYAN]

Thanks John, that will do indeed.  Much appreciated.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Hi folks, another conundrum.

 

I have been trying to determine exactly what the 'towing timbers' cited in the Contract might be: "To have three pairs of towing timbers on each side, as shown in the drawing, of Africa oak, secured in the usual way, each timber having an iron cap over it with a pin through the head."  Unfortunately, this drawing is not available so I am trying to determine exactly where these would have been located?  Note the statement about - fitted in the usual way - which implies these were not top timbers from frames etc.

The following is also cited: "… gallows, bitts and cross pieces, warping blocks on each bow and quarter with scores in them."  I am assuming the bitts and cross piece would be the bitts (with cross piece) for securing the heel of the bowsprit? Would the warping blocks (perhaps the bollards?) also be the towing timbers?  This extract from the Contract also alludes to this: "Bowsprit Bitts to be fitted as required."?

There is also this: "...stanchions on knight heads for man ropes..."   The ship was also fitted with Elliott Riding bitts.

So we have knight heads, warping blocks and bowsprit bitts.  So what are, and where would these towing timbers be located?  My only other thought might be that the bollards (three sets)  might also be these towing timbers?  These were located in the bow, midship and quarter (one set in each location each side).

 

cheers

 

Pat

 

 

 

[Jim Lad]

Pat, I can't find any reference to 'towing timbers' but there are a lot of references to 'towing bollards' for iron and steel ships, so your surmise may well be correct, especially given the detail of, "each timber having an iron cap over it with a pin through the head."

 

John

[BANYAN]

Thanks John, as a matter of interest can you please point me to one of the references for those towing bollards?  I have developed a spreadsheet that records  the source of information for all the decisions I am making so that others may re-evaluate the decision process if needed.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Jim Lad]

Pat, the first reference I came across was in R.N. Newton's "Practical Construction Of Warships" of 1941 (page 246).

 

John

[BANYAN]

Thanks John, just ordered it

 

cheers

 

Pat

[DaveRow]

This project will keep you busy Pat.

You make an excellent "sleuth"(investigative modeling variant)

 

Dave

 

[BANYAN]

Hi again folks, a small update.  Not too much to show on the model itself yet as I am preparing as much as possible on the bulwarks so that once painted i do not have to revisit them much after that.  This for 2 reasons; the first is that once the deck furniture is fitted there will be limited space to add anything to the bulwarks, and, as they will be flat white, and small marks will show up easily.

 

In the meantime, two other members and I have been progressing a few parts ready to  for fitting.

 

The first is the cathead as shown below.  This is at an angle of 45 degress, which is consistent with what is shown in the lithographs and with HMS Warrior (1860) .  I have also made the small anchor release mechanism that will fit to the top of these (not shown).  The groove is to accept the whisker which will be fitted later - too prone to damage at this stage :).  Based on info held so far, I do not believe there was any ornamentation at the end of the cathead timber.  As can also be seen from the the closeup camera detail, a lot more sanding and preparation is still needed.

 

 

A friend (same one who did the screw) has started the on the funnel.  this is the turned base to which all the required detail will be fitted.  False bands to representing the telescoping components, a spider band for the chain stays, and the waste steam pipe are yet to be added along with simulated riveting.

 

 

I have also made the platform for the Leadline handler which will be fitted to the stbd side bulwark and is located just under the cap rail (roughtree rail).  A jacob's ladder is fitted for accessing the platform and two stanchions will be fitted into the cap rail with a leather belt between them to support the crewmember as he leaned out.  The rough timber closest to camera will be glued to the bulwark and false bolts fitted either side of the platform.  Another board will be added, along with eyebolts, to the port side as the platform could be moved to either side.  The other photo is what I am trying to achieve at scale (eventually). As the camera has pointed out, I need to trim the rung ends a little - the camera is useful for finding this sort of detail as the platform is only 8mm x 10mm.  [Edit:  actually, I think I will redo the jacob's ladder; that ladder looks too crude

 

  

 

One club member had started on the boats, but only completed three before he sadly passed away suddenly.  Another member has volunteered to complete them (all shown below).  Four of the boats, the two lifeboats, Gig and Whaler) will be shown with canvas covers fitted and the dinghy, which will be on the stern davits, will be open.  These boats will all be repainted to be the same shade of black as the hull.  You can see how small these are :).

 

  Dinghy

 

Whaler plug with partial planking on other side complete.

 

Completed lifeboats and Gig

 

I have started work on the davits as these need to be fitted to the outside of the bulwarks.  I have shaped the main davits, modified some shroud cleats which will be added and have yet to add some eyes to the davit head for the chain stays.  See separate post on this.

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Hi again folks,

 

As mentioned above, and with reference to the photo of the davits (last one), I have yet to add two eyes to the head of each davit and I am struggling to determine the best was to do this.  These will be added such that there is an eye either side of the arm, perpendicular to the horizontal axis of the top of the davit head.  These eyes were used to shackle the chain stays to.  One stay between davit heads, and a fore/after stay on the respective davit that led to just under the cap rail of the bulwarks.  The attached image is of a contemporary boat on davits model in the NMM (SLR1793) and shows what I need to achieve.

 

The second photo shows the davits, as fitted to Victoria, from standing forward of and inboard of the after starboard davits, showing the inward curve, and that they were fitted outboard of the bulwark.  The third photo is taken from a side on shot of the ship and clearly shows the configuration, including the chain stays.  The loops you can see are the falls, neatly lashed back onto the davit arms.  In the second photo you can also see the man-ropes lead back neatly inboard closest to the fore davit; this I will assume will also indicate/imply that the boat steps on the bulwarks were fitted arounf this point.

 

         

 

 

The conundrum.  If I drill the head of the davit (less than 1 mm), the davit would be too weak and snap.  I will be using two part epoxy to add the large cleat (modified shroud cleat) so I could try to glue something, but sufficient glue to hold a sub-millimetric wire eye would look out of scale and probably be two weak to withstand fitting the chains.  I can't solder the eyes in place as these are white metal and would disintegrate as soon as any heat got near them

 

The only solution I can think of is to use some very fine wire  passed through the end links of the two fine chain stays then wrap around the head and fix with a small dab of epoxy.

 

Can anyone suggest a better way?

 

cheers

 

Pat

[cog]

Pat,

Your fellow members, and you did a wonderful job. I especially like the funnel, and the davits. Concerning your question on the eyes: I would glue them with CA gel as it will stick to a somewhat larger area (fill in the gaps) than the liquid type. I do not see another suggestion to attach them presently, as soldering would be the stronger solution, but as you wrote, is impossible.

 

Cheers

[wefalck]

Pat, that looks like neat progress !

 

May I ask a counterproductive question ? Why were the davits made from white metal ? If they were brass, it would be indeed a lot easier to solder bit and pieces on. Normally, the davits would have a sort of short piece of tube at the end, in which an eye-bolt swivvels to which the block for the boat-haliard would have been shackled. The swivveling motion is needed so that the tackle is not being twisted as the davits are swung out. The stays would be attached to the top of the eye-bolt, rather than the davit itself.

 

I have seen the cleats for the boat-haliard attached to the round davit by tight wire windings, just as cleats would be attached to shrouds with a thin line. That can be easily reproduced with say 0.05 mm copper wire.

 

I did not examine very closely the images of your prototype, whether such solution would be correct in this particular case, but I think it would be appropriate for the period.

[BANYAN]

Hi Carl and Wefalck, thanks for looking in and the kind comments.

 

Wefalck, I pursued the white metal ones purely as a time saver.  Between trying to research, draw plans and build this model time is a premium.  I was able to get some davits of about the right size; all I had to do was remove a couple of fittings and bend the arc into the vertical part (thumb and forefinger pressure).  i had been tempted with brass but the tapering profile from base to davit head would be difficult to achieve.

 

As to the swivelling head, I had thought on this but the evidence I have seems to put that about 10 years later than Victoria.  Noting this was a time of 'flux' and that Victoria had the latest and greatest in most areas of construction, it is possible she may have had the swivelling head.  That said though, the NMM models I have found with that type of feature, including the picture above, were all dated about 1865.  Also looking at the photos of the ship, it would appear that they are a more traditional head with perhaps a swivelling block?  The Contract did specify bronze bound block but did not state swivelling and is fairly explicit for most such equipment.

 

I have gone for this configuration as it most closely resembles the davits shown in the photo.  I think I will go with the fine wire option, and even contemplating a change to the cleats to better reflect the type shown in the photo (need to look closely) which are more like a rod through a ball head

 

Thanks again for your feedback and helpful comments.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[DaveRow]

Hi Pat,

Got yourself a beauty to spend your time on here.

Like the research and outcomes.

I'll keep an eye on the progress.

[BANYAN]

Thanks Dave.  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[EdT]

Just catching up with this interesting project.  I look forward to seeing the later phases.

 

Ed

[BANYAN]

Thanks for looking in Ed; I had better pick up my game a bit now.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

i all, I have been experimenting to see how to complete the davits I discussed earlier.  The picture I have of the Officers and some crew on quarterdeck, shows te davits in the background.  Note the shape of the davit cleat.  I decided not to go with the modified shroud cleats and made some new cleats for which I have shown some of the process below.  The cleats have still to be polished to remove some more of the oxidation but I think they have come up OK?  One is shown loosly fitted (not glued yet) on a davit arm along with an experiment for fitting the stay and brace chains to the davit head.  this was done with some very fine nichrome wire which I think will do; just need to work out how to fix it in place now   Note the chain is too much out of scale but is the smallest I have now (12 links per inch)  I think I need about 24 links per inch to get the scale right.

 

   

 

[russ]

Those cleats are nicely done. I like how you have fashioned them. Excellent work.

 

Russ

[cog]

You picked up your game quite well, Pat. Nice cleats. Where did you find that bulbous headed nail?

[BANYAN]

Thanks Russ and Carl.

 

The bulbous 'nails' are an aftermarket ring bolt I picked up from a Melbourne Hobby Store.  No maker's name etc on them so I can't help you there sorry.  The ball parts are straight sided with a rounded top/bottom - the spherical shape (by adding to the sides) I imparted with solder. 

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited August 1, 2017 by BANYAN