HMS Bellerophon by flyer - FINISHED - Amati/Victory Models - scale 1:72

[Techtonic]

Hi Flyer (or any other HMS Vanguard builders who might be reading this),

 

I'm excited that I have just joined the fold and starting building HMS Vanguard myself. I've been very much enjoying reading your build log and will take much inspiration from it.

 

Looking through all the parts in my kit I did have a question about the cannons. The 9 pounder cannons in my kit seem very undersized. I just wanted to check if this is normal or if maybe Amati substituted a smaller cannon in my kit?

 

Here is a pic of the 18 pounder and 9 pounder cannons supplied:

Here is what the 9 pounders look like against the 1:1 plans:

So do these 9 pounders look the same as the ones in your kit?

[flyer]

Hi Techtonic

 

First I wish you as much joy with the build of this monster as I have.

 

My canons are the same. It seems, that the mistake happened when someone got copy-paste-itis  and did paste some 18 ponders instead of the smaller 9 onto the fore deck when drawing the plan.

 

Another point is, that possibly the guns aren't in the right scale at all. If I take Brian Lavery's 'The 74-gun ship Bellona' as reference the barrel of an 18 should have a length of 41mm compared to the 35 of the kit whereas a long 9 should have 39mm instead of 27. Even the short 9 pounder should still have a 34mm barrel.

Possibly Amati did compromise a bit too much when weighting accuracy of the kit against its price.

 

Nevertheless it's still an amazing kit and you always could substitute the guns. Perhaps you could have them printed somewhere.

Vanguard model sells them in 1/64 but if you take the short 18 pounder it would be quite close to what you need. The difference would be about 10%. But one complete pair costs you 10,5 or 11,5 £ each...

 

And I look forward to your build log.😉

Cheerio

Peter

[Techtonic]

18 hours ago, flyer said:

Hi Techtonic

 

First I wish you as much joy with the build of this monster as I have.

 

My canons are the same. It seems, that the mistake happened when someone got copy-paste-itis  and did paste some 18 ponders instead of the smaller 9 onto the fore deck when drawing the plan.

 

Another point is, that possibly the guns aren't in the right scale at all. If I take Brian Lavery's 'The 74-gun ship Bellona' as reference the barrel of an 18 should have a length of 41mm compared to the 35 of the kit whereas a long 9 should have 39mm instead of 27. Even the short 9 pounder should still have a 34mm barrel.

Possibly Amati did compromise a bit too much when weighting accuracy of the kit against its price.

 

Nevertheless it's still an amazing kit and you always could substitute the guns. Perhaps you could have them printed somewhere.

Vanguard model sells them in 1/64 but if you take the short 18 pounder it would be quite close to what you need. The difference would be about 10%. But one complete pair costs you 10,5 or 11,5 £ each...

 

And I look forward to your build log.😉

 

Cheerio

Peter

Thanks Peter for confirming I have the correct incorrect parts 😕

Looking at your pics they don't look too bad once fitted so I'll probably stick with them since it would be pretty expensive to replace them all. I tend not to get too fixated on historical accuracy as long as it looks right.

I haven't decided yet if I'll do a build log for this one. I did for my first ship, HMS Beagle. But just did a completed build gallery entry for HMS Pegasus (for which again your build log was a source of inspiration).

Now the big dilemmas: Vanguard, Bellerophon or Elephant? Full sails, furled sails or no sails? I got carried away when I saw it came with sail cloth and sail plans and bought a sewing machine - so I may go for full or half furled sails on this one.

[Ian B]

I've just finished the standing rigging and never even noticed the cannon size issue on the plans when I was doing them🤪

 

I used the kits barrels but used the wooden carriage kits from Chris Watton's 'Victory model's instead of the cast ones...

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Ian B

[Ian B]

I forgot to say-- I'm planning to do a mix of furled and set sails-- set the main, fore course and one of the bow sails, (slightly raised from fully down) The spanker full. And all the rest furled--- well that's the intention....lets see how it works out in practice 🤣  

 

I just wanted to do something different as my last build had no sails (Cheerful) and my Bounty has full sails set.

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, Techtonic said:

I'll probably stick with them since it would be pretty expensive to replace them all.

If you consider 3D printed barrels, the price is very low.   Figure about $0.30-$0.50 each.   All you need is an appropriate drawing in STL or other format that is 3D printer friendly.  Check out the below for more details and a couple pics.  These happen to be 17th century barrels (note the tapered trunnions for this era) but others are certainly doable as you can see in responding posts.

Allan

 

[allanyed]

24 minutes ago, Ian B said:

I'm planning to do a mix of furled and set sails-- set the main, fore course and one of the bow sails, (slightly raised from fully down) The spanker full. And all the rest furled--- well that's the intention....lets see how it works out in practice

Your model is really looking good.  I fully realize there are proponents of using cloth sails that are not so concerned with scale and the choice is always that of the model builder.  Keep in mind that at 1:72 there is no cloth in existence or sewing method that will be to scale and many feel will detract from all the beauty you have put into your model to this point.    Maybe consider non-woven materials.   The $7 booklet on making sails by David Antsherl from SeaWatch books is a great guide on making realistic sails.  Tom Lauria has a two part video on sail making that you may find helpful as well.   

 

[Ian B]

11 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Your model is really looking good.  I fully realize there are proponents of using cloth sails that are not so concerned with scale and the choice is always that of the model builder.  Keep in mind that at 1:72 there is no cloth in existence or sewing method that will be to scale and many feel will detract from all the beauty you have put into your model to this point.    Maybe consider non-woven materials.   The $7 booklet on making sails by David Antsherl from SeaWatch books is a great guide on making realistic sails.  Tom Lauria has a two part video on sail making that you may find helpful as well.   

 

Thanks I have seen this video-- I am having great difficulty in locating silkspan in the UK--- so if anyone knows where to get some I'd be greatly obliged

 

. 

[allanyed]

PEGASUS MODELS LTD 88 CATTON GROVE ROAD NORWICH NORFOLK UNITED KINGDOM Zip:NR33AA Phone: 44-1603-419515 Email: sales@pegasusmodels.co.uk WebSite: www.pegasusmodels.co.uk   I don't know if this is current but they are a distributor for SIG, which makes silk span.   https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-silkspan-tissue

Allan

[Techtonic]

8 hours ago, Ian B said:

 

I used the kits barrels but used the wooden carriage kits from Chris Watton's 'Victory model's instead of the cast ones...

Hi Ian. Do you happen to recall which size carriage you got https://vanguardmodels.co.uk/product/cannon-carriages/, was it the 1:72 9 pounder? Just want to make sure since the kit 9 pounder barrels seem undersized but I want to at least make sure the carriage matches the barrel reasonably well. That's definitely an affordable solution at 90p per carriage, though shipping to the US costs more that the carriages. 

[Techtonic]

8 hours ago, Ian B said:

Thanks I have seen this video-- I am having great difficulty in locating silkspan in the UK--- so if anyone knows where to get some I'd be greatly obliged

 

. 

I used Silkspan to do the furled sails on my Pegasus, I think it looks great for furled sails - you can see the results here https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/2554-hms-pegasus-164-amati-victory-models-by-techtonic/.

For set sails, while the silkspan may look more accurate to scale, I've a feeling the cloth sails may be more aesthetically pleasing. The cloth supplied with the Vanguard is very fine so might look reasonable. I'll probably experiment with both to see which looks best.

[allanyed]

Techtonic

There have been a few nice looking cloth sail sets in recent logs and it would really be super if those builders prepared a short write up on their methods that could go into the articles data base.   Sadly, there have also been many that look awful, including pre-sewn sails from most kit makers.   Bad sails plus the fact that most of the rigging is blocked from view is possibly why so many model makers from the 17th through the 21st centuries leave off the sails. 

In the end, of course we should all go with what makes us happy😁

Allan 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ian B]

16 hours ago, Techtonic said:

Hi Ian. Do you happen to recall which size carriage you got https://vanguardmodels.co.uk/product/cannon-carriages/, was it the 1:72 9 pounder? Just want to make sure since the kit 9 pounder barrels seem undersized but I want to at least make sure the carriage matches the barrel reasonably well. That's definitely an affordable solution at 90p per carriage, though shipping to the US costs more that the carriages. 

yes--- and with their carriages on to the kit barrels they look right in proportion-- well to my eyes anyway

 

Cannon Carriages - 9-pounder, 1:72
Cannon Carriages - 18-pounder, 1:72

[Ian B]

15 hours ago, Techtonic said:

I used Silkspan to do the furled sails on my Pegasus, I think it looks great for furled sails - you can see the results here https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/2554-hms-pegasus-164-amati-victory-models-by-techtonic/.

For set sails, while the silkspan may look more accurate to scale, I've a feeling the cloth sails may be more aesthetically pleasing. The cloth supplied with the Vanguard is very fine so might look reasonable. I'll probably experiment with both to see which looks best.

Thanks, I have just added your build to my favourites-- gives me lots of ideals-- might go fully furled all round..

 

 

Better keep it light on here its not my build log     Its a great build and looking forward to seeing how it turn out ..amazing I bet!!!

[Ian B]

On 6/20/2022 at 2:02 PM, allanyed said:

PEGASUS MODELS LTD 88 CATTON GROVE ROAD NORWICH NORFOLK UNITED KINGDOM Zip:NR33AA Phone: 44-1603-419515 Email: sales@pegasusmodels.co.uk WebSite: www.pegasusmodels.co.uk   I don't know if this is current but they are a distributor for SIG, which makes silk span.   https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-silkspan-tissue

Allan

no luck-- tried them as well-- just hoping some shop has old stock stuck somewhere

[mort stoll]

Hi Ian,

Just noticed the rammers, sponges etc. by your carrages. Where did you get them?

Keep up the great work,

Mort

[flyer]

Thank you all for that wealth of information.

 

About to finish standing rigging I'm actually thinking about which sails to set and which will be furled. I shall use a mix of both, same as Ian B.

Presently all topgallant sails shall be furled and all topsails set. The rest is undecided. Perhaps I will have Mizzen course and main sail hauled up, fore sail and jib set and perhaps one or two staysails added - at least that's the provisional plan, depending on my skill and nerves.

 

Before I saw that excellent tutorial about silkspan I was determined to use glued sails made from fine cotton fabric with seams pencilled on. The same I used on Pickle and America. And now I also found Chris Watton's latest post about his newest sail sets. And I knew where I could get about the same fabric he uses...

Time to think and decide...

 

Techtonic,

your Pegasus and her sails look wonderful and I'm a great fan of adding at least furled sails. However having all sails set on my last two projects - both schooners - give me some additional pleasure. Now I'd like to try a mix. An additional benefit of partly set sails is the possibility (or rather necessity) to brace the yards and thus need less space for the finished model.

 

Ian,

very nice details on your build. Especially that open grating above the galley stove is a nice touch. Do you see the stove at all?

And BTW, did you rig royal stays and backstays? They are missing on the plans but installed in the pictures on the kit's box.

 

Cheers

Peter

[Ian B]

22 hours ago, mort stoll said:

Hi Ian,

Just noticed the rammers, sponges etc. by your carrages. Where did you get them?

Keep up the great work,

Mort

@mort stoll easy -- they were just plastic coated electrical wire---stripped with just the end insolation left on end for the sponge and the bare copper for the shift and painted  you can make loads in minutes ...and completely strip wires twisted at the end for the cork screw.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Ian B

[Ian B]

Hi Peter @flyer

 

I haven't rigged the Royals--- but might...

 

yes, the stove can be seen slightly (all of the top) -- better than not at all-- I spent so much time doing it I thought it  a shame to hide it,

[flyer]

main topgallant mast

 

Stay and backstays were rigged in a similar manner as on the mizzen.

 

main topgallant mast

 

 

 

rudder chains

 

After pondering a while about which way to fix them I decided to follow the example of the well known contemporary Bellona model. Another possibility would have been the way it's done on today's Victory. However interesting it would have been to show the partly installed emergency steering it seems to me a strange configuration with the rudder pendants also in place and leading over the side of the ship. Albeit in Harland's 'Seamanship in the age of sail' this configuration seems to be mentioned as permanent installation with the ends of the pendants made fast in the mizzen channels I choose the simpler way.

 

During work I noticed the missing strip of wood on marking the lower end of the lower counter, which gives the location where to fix the chains, and put it in place.

 

 

missing strip of wood at the lower counter and an impression how it could look with rudder chains the Victory-way

 

 

 

ruder chains in place - they seem to hang low but that length is needed to let the rudder play

Edited July 12, 2022 by flyer

[flyer]

jibboom and fore topgallant mast

 

Because I needed it for the topgallant stay, I had to put the jibboom in place. It was fixed with a lashing around the bowsprit in front of the saddle.

 

The martingale stay was set up the way I discussed earlier. Stay and backstay are in one piece, leading over the dolphin striker(changing here from stay to backstay), through a block under the bowsprit behind the bees and towards the port knighthead where it is set up with a tackle. Horses are in place on bowsprit and jibboom. (How I feel with Stephen Maturin about those strange names mariners have for ships parts: a positive floating zoo!)

 

Fore topgallant stays were set up according to the plans with the same changes I made on the other masts.

 

bowsprit with jibboom

 

 

jibboom

 

 

port knighthead - upper tackle for martingale backstay, lower for fore topmast stay

 

all topgallant stays in place

 

 

[flyer]

Now I have to decide whether to set up royal stays or not. They are omitted in the plans, however set on the picture on the kit's box.

Bellona doesn't have them in the original configuration in Lavery's book.

Lees sais they came into use 1719 for main and foremast and 1810 for the mizzen. Before that time I think at least flagstaff stays were set up on main and foremast.

As far as I can make out on the works by Thomas Luny (1759 - 1837) he had them included in all his paintings of the Bellerophon.  So, when Napoleon set foot on the deck of Bellerophon he certainly noticed royal stays and backstays on all 3 masts.🤔🤔

 

 

 

Taking advantage of the fine weather I had a photo shooting on the outside with Bellerophon's nearly completed standing rigging.

[Ian B]

Its coming on great--- glad I am following you,  I noticed after looking at your pictures I have missed the foot ropes on my jib boom--- so thanks  I shall correct that soon.  Liking the anchor chains the length and the colour looks spot on to me...I have not fitted them yet I shall leave that to last when I fit the lights ---

Edited July 13, 2022 by Ian B

[flyer]

mizzen topgallant stay 2.0

 

After deciding to set up royal stays, I tried to figure how.

 

First I glued two small cleats on the sides of each royal mast,  just below the caps. This is according to an information in Darcy Lever's Young Sea Officers Sheet Anchor. I recently acquired a copy and found that book full of useful information.

 

Then I turned to Lees to see how the lower ends of the stays would be set up. While checking the run of the mizzen royal stay I noticed that it's topgallant stay changed several times the way it was run. The kit's plans showed  a topgallant stay before royal stays were put onto the mizzen - before ca. 1810.

So I reset it and led it from the mast top  through a block below the cap of the main mast and fixed its end to the collar of the main stay with thimbles and a lanyard.

 

topgallant mizzen stay 1.0

 

...2.0

 

lower end in the main top

Edited July 30, 2022 by flyer

[flyer]

royal stays

 

After finishing the topgallant stays, I started to rig royal stays on all 3 masts. To find out how, I mainly used information of Lees. The diameter of all stays is 0,25mm, half of that of the topgallant stays.

 

The backstays are spliced around the mast tops and their lower ends are set up to eyebolts close to the lower deadeyes of the respective topgallant backstays, fixed with thimbles and a lanyard and hooked to the eyebolt.

 

The fore royal stay is spliced around the masthead and the bowsprit while main and mizzen lower ends  are fixed at the aft most fore topmast crosstree respective in the main top.

 

Meanwhile I also started to arm the lower deck with the dummy gun barrels and glued the port lids in place.

 

The standing rigging is now finished and it's about time to decide what sails she should carry and in which way.

 

finished standing rigging with royal stays

 

mizzen royal backstay inside of the topgallant backstay

 

fore royal backstay

 

main top with mizzen topgallant stay fixed with thimbles and lanyard to the collar of the main stay and mizzen royal stay, to the left of it, fixed with thimbles and lanyard and hooked to an eyebolt

 

fore topmast head with main royal stay made fast to the crosstree with thimbles and lanyard

 

the first guns appeared on the lower deck

[AON]

Looks really good.

Great photos!

Thanks for that.

[flyer]

sail plan

 

Browsing through my books and the net I was looking for inspirations in form of paintings of a three masted ship with not too much sails set.

One painting which did catch my eye - for obvious reasons - was Derek Gardner's 'Bellerophon at Plymouth'. I noted that Gardner did several paintings of different ships with a similar perspective and sail arrangement. As he did serve in the royal navy - albeit more than 100 years too late - he should have his sails right.

 

I guess Gardner's Bellerophon could have sailed in with a wind from her aft port quarter. Perhaps a short while before she still had her main topgallant and fore course fully set and also did use her mizzen course.

 

Taking this as a possible scenario, I could set course and topsail on the mizzen, topsail and topgallant on the main, fore course and topsail and jib sail. On that painting she also carries her main top staysail. To decide if this would suit, I will check with dummy paper sails. Main course as well as mizzen and fore topgallants would be furled on the yards while spritsail and sprit topsail yard would be bare. This means 5 square sails, spanker, jib and 1 staysail - a total of 8 sails set and 3 square sails furled. The fore topmast staysail should most probably also be furled on the bowsprit.

 

Bellerophon at Plymouth by Derek G. M. Gardner

 

 

 

To check the look of the arrangement I did then cut paper sails. After attaching them to masts and stays I came to the following conclusions:

- Checking a sail plan with simple paper sails is definitely worth the effort.

- All the kit's sail plans must be rechecked with actual masts and yards.

- The main top staysail looks good and helps to create a balanced look.

- The chosen sail plan looks quite business-like and still leaves an unobstructed view onto the decks.

- It guess it will look fine with those sails set and the others furled. I will omit to attempt clewed up sails.

- Whether the jib or the fore topmast staysail will be set is still undecided - that's for later.

- The jib has an odd size. Although it matches that in the book 'Bellona' in the AOTS series it is completely different from one constructed according to information from Lees. If I set the jib it will have the corrected form.

- It would be nice if the making of the definite sails would be as fast and easy as the paper sails were.

 

 

 

with fore topmast staysail

 

jib according to kit's plans - a clear no go

 

 

with jib according to Lees

Edited August 2, 2022 by flyer

[AON]

She look gorgeous!

[Blue Ensign]

Nice work Peter, she looks impressive.

 

I like the sail arrangement on the Gardner painting; if you use silkspan sails they can be manipulated using the clews and Buntlines.

It's been a while since I did sails on my Seventy-four build, but the silkspan is coated with diluted pva, re-wetted and hauled into shape. It then dries in the desired position.

The same applies if you want a slight billow to the sails, heat applied from behind fixes the shape.

 

I look forward to see her kitted out.

 

B.E.

[Ian B]

Looking fab, the cannons really start to make her look aggressive progress is super-- Love the painting those sails would look great on the model...

 

 I'm just about to embark on my sails --so its good to see your mock ups. I now keep changing my mind as to which way to go-- i am now thinking a mix of full and furled sails as per your painting...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh  to much to choose from 🤪

 

By the way , I have just fitted royal stays-- I took my lead from you