Seeking info about steering chain/rod cover

[Ilhan Gokcay]

Dear friends,

I have some original drawings of a steam paddle ship. There is a point on the drawings which I have diffuculties to visualise as there are not sufficient info.  It's steering chain/rod cover.
On the drawing only on the top view its indicated that there is teak cover over steering rod but no other information on other views.
I appreciate any opinion about this, how does it look like.

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Ilhan Gokcay

[Jim Lad]

Ilhan,

 

I haven't been able to find any photos of the cover plates over rod and chain steering, however they were very similar to the cover plates that were placed over steam pipes on deck - just a bit lower as the rods and chains were just above the deck.

 

The phot below is from Alan Villiers 'Last of the Windships' and shows crew members on the right standing on the steam pipe covers.  This might at least give you a starting point.

 

John

 

[kurtvd19]

The covers I have observed over the steering chains/rods was a simple cover flush with the deck - as the steering chains were below the decks surface.  A simple wood slat assembly that can be lifted out for a wood boat and steel on a metal boats.  My experience is strictly with tug and tow boats.

On the drawing side view they probably would not be detailed so you would only have the plan (top) view.

Kurt

[Ilhan Gokcay]

9 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

Ilhan,

 

I haven't been able to find any photos of the cover plates over rod and chain steering, however they were very similar to the cover plates that were placed over steam pipes on deck - just a bit lower as the rods and chains were just above the deck.

 

The phot below is from Alan Villiers 'Last of the Windships' and shows crew members on the right standing on the steam pipe covers.  This might at least give you a starting point.

 

John

 

John, thanks a lot for the photo and info. Let me ask you, do you know more about this cover other than this photo.
Is it simple wooden board following the railing? Are the stanchions sitting on top of this board? Or maybe it's in front of the stanchions.
Do you have any idea. I searched many books and drawings, could not find anything.

[Ilhan Gokcay]

9 hours ago, kurtvd19 said:

The covers I have observed over the steering chains/rods was a simple cover flush with the deck - as the steering chains were below the decks surface.  A simple wood slat assembly that can be lifted out for a wood boat and steel on a metal boats.  My experience is strictly with tug and tow boats.

On the drawing side view they probably would not be detailed so you would only have the plan (top) view.

Kurt

Hey Kurt thanks for the response. That's what I tought at first but on the second photo there are two crossovers over this part. So I assume it's above the deck level. But still not exactly sure about it.

[kurtvd19]

Ilhan:

The one note on the drawing says it is at the scupper - the lower surface of the scupper will be at deck level so the metal tread plate has to be at the deck level or the scupper is blocked.

Kurt

[Jim Lad]

I don't want to make this an argument, but the steering rods were very commonly above the level of the deck - they wouldn't interfere with the scupper.  A mate of mine was (long ago) third mate on a ship with rod and chain steering.  He told me of the time when they got into terrible trouble because the running end of a derrick guy was washed under the steering rod covers in heavy seas and completely jammed the steering.

 

Ilhan, the actual position of the rods and chains varied enormously and depended on what was most convenient for the run of the rods - the convenience or safety of the crew didn't really matter.  Looking at your drawing, I'd say that the rods ran just inboard of the awning stanchions.

 

John

 

 

[BANYAN]

Hi Ilhan,

 

As John has suggested, some steering control rods were above deck.  The attached photo shows control chains but the principle is the same.   I have seen, but do not have a photo, where these chains ran inside an inverted 'U' style protective cover bolted to the deck (not flush) also.

 

I hope this helps?

 

 

cheers

 

Pat

Edited December 26, 2018 by BANYAN

[Ilhan Gokcay]

Thanks a lot for the comments. These help much. 
I have a sketch.  It's maybe similar to this.


 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Ilhan Gokcay

[steamschooner]

Ilhan, My current project uses a rod and chain type of steering. The rods run in a box like channel which the cabin coaming is one side of the box. The channel top is removable( bolted or screwed ) so any breaks can be got to.  Where crew have to cross over there is a ramp butted to each side to prevent tripping.  

On yours the box like channel is pushed up against the rail coaming. The rail coaming would be one side of the box. Below is what I see in your drawings above.

 

 

 

Steve

[Ilhan Gokcay]

Hey Steve, thanks a lot. Your sketch seems to be the most probable.
By the way I liked your build log.

 

[Mirabell61]

Hi Ilhan,

 

on heritage steam merchant steamers and other early ships, later also motorships, there used to be an emergency steering device, that operates directly to the Rudder, by coupling out the the chain that drives the large horizontal chainwheel. When the ship is steered from the bridge the kinematic devices are coupled out

As a steam cargo ship would immediately become unmanouverable if the steering chain breaks, and that happens "favorably" at night and in high going sea, it can be dangerous to man the emergency rudder stand at aft, and not being washed overboard.

The telemotor at the bridge controlled the auxilliary steam engine winding drums that spooled up resp. spooled down the rudderchain ends for stb / port pull.

Under such circumstances (broken rudder chain) my grandfathers ship the "Heinrich Kayser" foundered and went down in a North Atlantic storm with all that were on her in Dec. 1922

 

Nils

 

Emergency rudder stand

 

 

 

port rudderchain spool drum

 

 

both spool drums, with the superstructure containment which bears the steam operated ruder "servo" engine, operated from the telemotor at the bridge and controlled steam valves

 

[wefalck]

Whether above or below deck depends on the size of the ship and the space available at the counter. In Europe most tugs I have seen seem to have the rudder quadrant above the deck under some gratings. In consequence the chain/rod would run along the waterways towards the steering house. Below are some pictures of RELIANT, when she was in the NMM in Greenwhich (apologies for the low quality, but the colour slides had so much degraded since 1979, when I took the pictures, that I had to convert them to b/w):

 

 

 

 

For the most part the chain/rod runs in the open, supported by shallow stanchions. Only where people are crossing its way it runs in a steel pipe.

 

Covering the chain/rod would only be necessary in fancy ships, where passengers would come into conflict with them. A simple box structure as in the drawings in a previous post would do the job. As the box would cover part of the waterways, the scuppers should be on the inside of the box in order to allow the drainage of the deck. Still it is not an ideal arrangement, as it could retain significant quantities of water on the deck.

[Ilhan Gokcay]

Hi Nils, Hallo Herr Falck,

thanks a lot for the photos and info.  I'm starting to picture it.

 

[Ilhan Gokcay]

Still trying to clear up the drawings, my second topic is the gangway on the deck crossing midships aft/front the paddleboxes.
Again the same question arises. How does it look like? Is it a simple second (higher) planking on the wood deck ? 
The only cross section view does not tell much but brings up one more questions i.e. "is there a wood planking around the engine room?"

Thanks again in advance for your opinions which are always very helpful.  


 

[wefalck]

Ilhan, without seeing the whole ship, your questions are not so easy to answer, particularly concerning the first two deck-views. Concerning the cross-sections, it appears to me that there is a steel deck all around that has a wooden deck on it (this was done for insulation purposes). There are angle-irons connecting the steel deck and the walls of the engine- and boiler-rooms as well as the hull plating. The wooden deck is off-set a bit along the hull to form a waterway. Usually such waterways were partly filled with cement to form a gutter - this prevents water from resting in the angles and causing corrosion.

[Ilhan Gokcay]

Herr Falck yes,  its a passenger ferry. Steam paddle ship.
I've attached the other drawings. The gangway is on where the passengers walk to the saloons.

[wefalck]

I think there were passages between the main deck-house and the after and fore deck-houses respectively. They seem to have served for embarking and disembarking passengers. The wood would have been laid onto the steel deck I would presume. The area around the main deck-house, inside the wheel-boxes, where the coaling scuttles are seems to have not been planked in wood.

[steamschooner]

I would agree with wefalck, and add that the plans show a wood deck in the 2nd class saloon. How it ties in with the wood gangway it does not show. 1st class has carpet runners which I guess could have been put down over a metal deck.

Interesting looking vessel should make a great model.

[Ilhan Gokcay]

Thanks for the ideas. There is not enough info on the drawings. It's best to have photos/drawings of relevant similar vessels.
I'll try to make a new topic about this.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Ilhan Gokcay

[Ilhan Gokcay]

Thanks again for the helpful comments.

Regarding the same ship  I have another point which I need to clarify which is the constuction of bulwarks.
Unfortunately on the drawings it is not clearly shown.
My main concern is that there are no stanchions shown on any drawing. Can this be true that the bulwarks are steel plates without any support. The steering chain covers are also shown flush with the bulwarks that there is no room for stanchions.
I couldn't find any similar vessels which have such bulwarks.

Thanks again in advance
Ilhan

[wefalck]

Ilhan, for the moment I don't see any solid bulwark that may require stanchions. Much of the deck seems to be surrounded by rails. Only the forward area seems to have some sort of half-high bulwark. The cross-section drawing seems to indicate that frames are lead up to the raised after-deck level. As the level of that deck coincides with the top of the half-high bulwark, I would conclude that the frames are actually forming the bulwark stanchions (perhaps not all frames, but only every second or third). So there would be no need for stanchions to support the bulwark.

[BANYAN]

Hi Ilhan, where you may require risers (for bulwarks) it may have been the same construction technique as for my build.   HMCSS Victoria did not have rising timbers which were extensions of the frames etc like other ships built with the normal practice of construction.  Rather, rising timbers (roughtree timbers as they were called) were added as 'stout' timbers to the hull at the appropriate places - these looked similar to, but were smaller, than the usual timbers; in Victoria's case the maximum size was 8 x 6 inches for major timbers, and 6 x 6 inches for minor roughtree timbers.  As Eberhard points out though, you may not need many.

 

cheers

 

Pat 

[wefalck]

This discussion actually concerns an interesting paradigm (shift) in shipbuilding that occurred twice during the 19th century in commercial shiipping, namely the function of the hull and where it actually ends. As a lay-person one would instinctively think that the hull should end with the top of the bulwark. However, when one carefully looks at the way how ships were constructed, the hull as a structural element ends at the upper deck and the deck itself is not merely something dropped in, but is a structural element in itself. It seems that shipbuilders conceived the hull of commercial ships in the 19th century as a closed and (almost) watertight space. In consequence, anything above deck-level did not contribute significantly to the buouancy and seaworthiness of the ship and could be (and was at occasions) knocked away. Raising the frames above deck-level, which was done frequently in smaller and coastal vessels is a change in construction philosophy. In a way it also exposes the upper part of the frames to the forces of overcoming seas, which could structurally weaken the hull. Of course, the pre-19th century ships, particularly naval vessels, did not have this sort of sealed volume of buoancy the flush-decked commercial vessels had. With iron- and steel-ships that were subdivided with  water-tight bulkheads this construction philosophy disappeared again.

[Ilhan Gokcay]

Hey thanks for the clues.
I do interpret the construction as this. Can this be possible.

( The height of the half bulwark is around 45-50 cmm. )
 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Ilhan Gokcay