HMS Flirt 1772 by drumgerry - Vanguard Models - 1:64 Scale.

[drumgerry]

Thanks James!  It helps that I have a fair few scraps of veneer kicking about as I use it in my musical instrument making quite a lot.  But it's handy as it's a known thickness and very flexible.  Believe it or not that's flamed maple veneer glued on to the bulkhead there!

[James H]

3 minutes ago, drumgerry said:

Thanks James!  It helps that I have a fair few scraps of veneer kicking about as I use it in my musical instrument making quite a lot.  But it's handy as it's a known thickness and very flexible.  Believe it or not that's flamed maple veneer glued on to the bulkhead there!

 

Without derailing your build, what instruments do you make? String, percussion?

[drumgerry]

I build guitars, mandolins and ukes.  Lots of the skills from model ship building are very similar I'm finding.  Problem (of my own making!) solving seems to be the main one for me at the moment.  There's a few pics of my latest mandolin build on my introduction thread if you're inclined to look James. 

 

Cheers, Gerry

[VTHokiEE]

1 hour ago, drumgerry said:

I build guitars, mandolins and ukes.

Apologize for continuing the slight derail, but the mandolin on your intro topic looks really nice. My daughter is asking for a Ukulele (but doesn’t want to take lessons 🤔); it would be a lot of fun to build one but I’ll probably opt for the mass consumer route unfortunately since I think her and her brother may destroy it more than play 😁. 

[drumgerry]

Thanks! Probably as well to get something a bit cheaper if it's likely to get some rough attention from kids😁. 

 

You can buy kits of semi-made ukes if you fancy being more adventurous - check out Stewmac for example. 

[glbarlow]

Shims are our friend

[glbarlow]

23 hours ago, drumgerry said:

Problem (of my own making!) solving seems to be the main one

Improvise, Adapt, Overcome is my creed. 

[glbarlow]

I’m guessing you did much of the fairing “off ship?”  I know Chris recommends doing this. But if I’m right the lesson learned is other than a start the best place to fair bulkheads is installed on the frame. 
 

Otherwise I’m noT sure how that one is off by that much. 

[James H]

4 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

I’m guessing you did much of the fairing “off ship?”  I know Chris recommends doing this. But if I’m right the lesson learned is other than a start the best place to fair bulkheads is installed on the frame. 
 

Otherwise I’m noT sure how that one is off by that much. 

The bevel marks on the bow and stern bulkheads are only rough, but 'under-bevelled', only as a starting point and to save a load of on-keel effort. They need to be further bevelled when fitted, including the bevelled parts between bulkheads.

[drumgerry]

1 hour ago, James H said:

The bevel marks on the bow and stern bulkheads

I didn't notice there were any marks.  I have the ply bulkheads rather than the mdf.  Am I right in thinking that the marks are a guide as to how much to bevel "off ship"?

 

1 hour ago, glbarlow said:

I’m guessing you did much of the fairing “off ship?”  I know Chris recommends doing this. But if I’m right the lesson learned is other than a start the best place to fair bulkheads is installed on the frame.

 

I added a bevel "off ship" to the forward most and rearward most bulkheads as in the instructions.  It worked out fine except for that single bulkhead.  It's a bit of a head scratcher as I didn't think I'd taken much off but I guess I must have gone too far with that one.

[James H]

1 minute ago, drumgerry said:

I didn't notice there were any marks.  I have the ply bulkheads rather than the mdf.  Am I right in thinking that the marks are a guide as to how much to bevel "off ship"?

 

 

I added a bevel "off ship" to the forward most and rearward most bulkheads as in the instructions.  It worked out fine except for that single bulkhead.  It's a bit of a head scratcher as I didn't think I'd taken much off but I guess I must have gone too far with that one.

 

Ooops! No bevel marks on this one. My bad.

[drumgerry]

 

Thanks Spyglass  - it does really help to see how things fit together at a slightly advanced stage from where I am.  I can see what you mean about the second from last bulkhead..  Maybe I didn't go massively wrong then.  As it is I think I'm pretty much done with fairing and that bulkhead got veneers glued on both sides to make up the gap I was seeing.  Not really an issue I don't think.  Once I start planking I'm sure to discover something else I've done wrong!

 

 

Cheers, Gerry

 

[DelF]

Looks good to me Gerry, as far as it's possible to tell from a picture. And it's worth stressing that this is just the first planking you're starting - you can get away with a multitude of sins in terms of sanding, shimming and filling - so long as you leave the best possible surface for your second planking. 

 

Having said that, the very fact that the first level doesn't show means it's the ideal place to practice techniques like tapering and edge-bending the planks before you do them in earnest for the final planking. Some practice here will pay dividends later on.

 

Derek

 

 

[BobG]

8 hours ago, DelF said:

Having said that, the very fact that the first level doesn't show means it's the ideal place to practice techniques like tapering and edge-bending the planks before you do them in earnest for the final planking. Some practice here will pay dividends later on.

Excellent advice, Derek! 

[drumgerry]

9 hours ago, DelF said:

 

Having said that, the very fact that the first level doesn't show means it's the ideal place to practice techniques like tapering and edge-bending the planks before you do them in earnest for the final planking. Some practice here will pay dividends later on.

 

Derek

 

I think I'm going to try to figure out how to do just that with the first planking Derek.  One thing that has me a bit perplexed is the garboard plank (or is strake the correct term?).  What shape should it be?  Or is a question of just taking a plank that is of even width and bending it to shape?

[DelF]

8 minutes ago, drumgerry said:

One thing that has me a bit perplexed is the garboard plank (or is strake the correct term?).  What shape should it be?  Or is a question of just taking a plank that is of even width and bending it to shape?

Good questions Gerry. Strake is the term for a whole run of planks from bow to stern. In full size ships the garboard strake would consist of several planks laid end to end; we modellers tend to use a single plank for convenience especially where it won't show.

 

That's the easy question answered! Personally I find the garboard strake/plank the hardest to fit.  I find the most important thing is not to let the plank rise too far up the stem at the bows. If you do you'll struggle to get all the rest of the strakes to fit in the remaining area. Have a look at Speedy:

 

 

You'll see at the bow end that the plank has been shaped to follow the curve of the stem along its bottom edge. Although it's not obvious from the photo, if your eye was level with the garboard plank it would look as close to a level, straight line as possible - the idea being that the next strake up will be as easy as possible to fit.  Eyeballing that straight line before you fit the plank should show you where the top edge of the plank should meet the stem. At the stern the plank doesn't need to be tapered;  rather, the area to be covered is wider so you'll end up inserting extra planks ('stealers').

 

The only comfort I can offer is that this is easier to do than to describe! I hope this helps, but please know that I'm by no means an expert. I'm sure a search through the forum for advice on garboard strakes would produce a wealth of information.

 

Derek

[drumgerry]

Thanks for taking the time to share that wealth of information guys.  I can't tell you how helpful it is.

 

Firstly Spyglass yep I can see that I need to fade the very bottom of the bulkheads into the keel a bit better.  Those little bits of laser char still showing there are a giveaway!

 

The garboard - I think I can see what's happening in the pics.  There seems to be a long curve at the bow end with the intention of having the plank lie as flat to the keel as possible.  At the stern end you both seem to have left an unplanked gap to the bottom of the keel.  My reading of this is you're simulating the garboard being wider there and later adding a stealer to fill that gap.  Please correct me if I'm totally off course here!  My next question is what do you do in that area on second planking when you're trying to avoid stealers?  Does Chuck's method of using little strips of paper to get precise tapers for each plank and therefore the same number of planks filling the space at stern and bow take care of this?

 

Cheers,  Gerry

[drumgerry]

I'm thinking that I want to try to do the first planking as if it's a single layer hull.  Not sure I can pull that off but I feel that I'll learn more doing that and hopefully make the second layer an easier task. 

 

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by "fancier spiling" at the stern Spyglass.  What sort of options are there apart from stealers?

 

I think I really need to slow down for a bit of study time.  Read more about planking and get some proper understanding before ploughing on.

 

Lucky you with your rigged ships etc!  I live not far from the Moray coast in NE Scotland but it's all trawlers and yachts here.  There is a boat festival at Portsoy every year but I've yet to make it there and it certainly won't be going ahead this year in light of Covid.

 

Cheers,  Gerry

[DelF]

Gerry, the only thing I’d add to SpyGlass’s sound advice is that the stern needs to end up thin enough to match the thickness of the sternpost. So there is no point covering the keel with first planking only to have to sand it off again. If you look at our Speedy logs and the manual (I assume Flirt’s is the same) you’ll see that the first planking has been sanded down to nothing as it approaches the stern, and even part of the keel has been thinned. This ensures you don’t have to sand the second planking too aggressively. You need to aim for a good smooth flow into the sternpost, not a step. 
 

Hope this helps. 
 

Derek

[drumgerry]

Again great advice gents.  I'm beginning to see that I need to be better informed about planking before going at it in earnest. 

 

Derek - I have thinned the keel area at the stern down to about 1mm as in the instructions.  I think in order for the second planking to give me a total of the 3mm I need in that area (keel thinned to 1mm and two widths of 1mm second planking either side of the keel there) I need to create a blended area where the first planking stops a little short of the stern, the dead wood area and the stern.  I've got that clear in my mind at least! 

 

Spyglass I've been investigating the nature of stealers and I see you can have blunt ended ones and ones cut into planks above and below - sounds like fun! 

 

As it is I've made a bit of progress and have the gun port strips glued on.  It was a bit of a faff and they are a little bit wavy at the bow but, even though they're only 0.8mm thick, it's nothing that a bit of sanding can't take care of once the first planking is in place. 

 

 

Cheers, Gerry

 

[glbarlow]

On 8/25/2020 at 11:35 AM, BobG said:

Having said that,

The very advice I would give.  Well said.

[glbarlow]

The wavy thing is a common issue, it comes from either too much soaking or not forming it on a shaper of some sort.  It’s not a big deal and as you noted can be resolved with sanding later.

 

As Derek so noted, all you want from the first planking is a smooth hull for your second planking.  However it is a great time to practice the bending, tapering, and bevel is you’ll need to do.  I cover this a bit in both my Lady Nelson and Cheerful log. That in addition to chucks videos and .pdfs cover my highly recommended approach. Headline, it involves using CA and no water, vs. nails, clamps, and longer drying PVA.

 

Enjoy the process!

[drumgerry]

59 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

The wavy thing is a common issue, it comes from either too much soaking or not forming it on a shaper of some sort.  It’s not a big deal and as you noted can be resolved with sanding later.

 

As Derek so noted, all you want from the first planking is a smooth hull for your second planking.  However it is a great time to practice the bending, tapering, and bevel is you’ll need to do.  I cover this a bit in both my Lady Nelson and Cheerful log. That in addition to chucks videos and .pdfs cover my highly recommended approach. Headline, it involves using CA and no water, vs. nails, clamps, and longer drying PVA.

 

Enjoy the process!

Thanks Glenn.  I'm going to use first planking as a chance to practice.  I need to figure planking out and this will be a good opportunity to do so. 

 

I'm with you on the CA.  As I said above I also build musical instruments.  One of the common modern techniques (which I use) to glue instrument bindings to guitars etc is to use water thin CA and wick it into the join as you go.  Works fine if you're careful and I have instruments coming up on 20 years old done this way which are showing no signs of the CA deteriorating.  Instrument bindings (the wooden kind) are typically about 6mm x 1.5mm which is not unlike the planks most kits seem to use!

[BobG]

1 hour ago, drumgerry said:

 

I'm with you on the CA.  As I said above I also build musical instruments.  One of the common modern techniques (which I use) to glue instrument bindings to guitars etc is to use water thin CA and wick it into the join as you go.  Works fine if you're careful and I have instruments coming up on 20 years old done this way which are showing no signs of the CA deteriorating.  Instrument bindings (the wooden kind) are typically about 6mm x 1.5mm which is not unlike the planks most kits seem to use!

It's good the hear that you've had no problems with CA deteriorating over time. I've seen a lot comments here in various threads that warn everyone about CA getting old and brittle. It seems to me that that is more fiction than fact from the research I have read elsewhere online about the longevity of CA bonds.

 

I've also learned that I have to be extra careful whenever I use extra thin CA because a small amount will wick quickly to every tiny crack near the spot that you place it and it will leave a stain on bare wood. It is very useful in the right places though.

[glbarlow]

I have a 25 year old model made entirely with CA other than bulkheads to frame. 
 

It’s fine. 
 

More impressive and a good way to put that fiction to an end is 25 year old CA made musical instruments that take far more abuse than a model on a shelf are still holding up. 

[drumgerry]

I think the CA deterioration thing is a myth perhaps resulting from the purchase of cheap stuff which didn't stand the test of time.  I should add that for guitars etc that and gluing frets in are the only jobs I'd use CA for - joints that are under stress like those for braces, the bridge, joints in the neck etc I'd use Titebond original or hide glue.

 

Cheers, Gerry

[Nunnehi (Don)]

I use a lot of CA and have had no problems with the exception that I have had a partially used  bottle that seemed to lose its ability to work properly after sitting for an extended time. You can probably write a book on applicators and methods but experience and following the various logs here is a good start. I’ve used it successfully on wood, plastic, ABS, resin, photo etch brass, and combinations of all the above. Yes, I occasionally glue my fingers together or to whatever I’m working, and this can cause some heartburn, but if you’re careful this will not cause too much damage other than a temporary loss of finger prints. I’ve also got a couple of models I built over 20 years ago that are not showing any deterioration. 

 

Don

[drumgerry]

Trying to learn something today.  Not necessary for first planking but a good chance to try it out..... 

 

 

Cheers, Gerry

[BobG]

31 minutes ago, drumgerry said:

Trying to learn something today.  Not necessary for first planking but a good chance to try it out..... 

This is exactly what I need to do as well!

[drumgerry]

No time like the present Bob!

 

Ps - if anyone has any tips for transferring the tick strip marks from the tick strips/bulkheads to the plank itself I'd be forever grateful.  Is it just a question of measuring the distance between bulkheads and marking out the points on the planks?

 

Cheers,  Gerry