Question regarding the base of the mast

[DaveBaxt]

Sorry I don't know what the metal ring fitted to the deck where the mast goes through the deck. I am currently in the process of fitting everything to the deck ,working my way from aft to forward and from inside to outside. Before I go onto surrounding the areas such as more racks for the belaying pins I thought I would now add these mast rings as I think the access would be easier doing these now. The mast fits snug through the deck but is too tight on the mast and it will be necessary to taper the mast to fit into the ring. If I fit the ring now should I taper the mast first or can I do it later after the ring is fitted to the deck. Will fitting the ring now have any effect on stepping the mast later on.Hope this makes sense. Best regards Dave

[Gregory]

You might consider dropping the metal ring, which is just a kit convention, and using wedges, once you are ready to step the mast.

 

( you can make the wedges look a lot neater than this )

 

Or fashion a wooden fabrication that you will find on a lot of models..

 

( Chuck's Cheerful )

 

On the actual boat, this area would have a canvas cover, which isn't seen often on models..

Edited February 8, 2021 by Gregory

[DaveBaxt]

1 hour ago, Gregory said:

You might consider dropping the metal ring, which is just a kit convention, and using wedges, once you are ready to step the mast.

 

( you can make the wedges look a lot neater than this )

 

Or fashion a wooden fabrication that you will find on a lot of models..

 

( Chuck's Cheerful )

 

On the actual boat, this area would have a canvas cover, which isn't seen often on models..

Does using the wedges make it easier to step the masts. The rings are very ornate and although not acurate they kind of go with the Cannons.

[rraisley]

I've been meaning to ask about mast coats myself. My Victory cross-section includes nothing, and I'd always felt there had to be /something/ to keep it solid and prevent leaks. McKay's books show relative size and shape, but as I'd also read they were covered with waterproof fabric, wasn't sure how best to model them. The wedges shown above make a lot of sense; I assume that area was just then covered with fabric.

 

On my model, adding such a device should help finish it off better, as well as help secure the mast. I was considering using some bent soft wire, even solder, then puttying around it to make the shape more correct. Probably attach it to the mast and deck the last time the mast is positioned and glued in place.

[DaveBaxt]

Wonder why they didn't have some kind of gland with heavy greased packing rapped around the mast as that would be the easiest way to keep the water out .Pretty much how they had internal glands on shaft,valves etc. Just a thought but could br way off base.

[bartley]

On 2/9/2021 at 6:06 AM, rraisley said:

 but as I'd also read they were covered with waterproof fabric, wasn't sure how best to model them.

 

Although I did not end up using this, I did I believe produce a good simulation of the canvas covering by using tissue paper

Edited February 10, 2021 by bartley

[gsdpic]

58 minutes ago, DaveBaxt said:

Does using the wedges make it easier to step the masts.

I used wedges stepping the masts on my America.  They helped in getting the masts lined up correctly.  If the mast was leaning one way or the other, I could just force the wedge on one side in a little farther and shift the mast.  The holes in the deck were a bit large so the mast had some wiggle room.  I also glued the mast to the step and let that cure for a bit before using the wedges.   Once set I coated the wedges with wood glue to hold them in place.  I plan to use some white wood putty over the wedges to simulate the fabric covering.

[rraisley]

I just now tried wrapping some large, soft thread around the mast with wax paper covering it so it doesn't stick, forming the general shape, then puttied in with white glue. Probably paint it a canvas or gray color when done. Making a ring that fits well to the mast, flat to the deck (a temp piece of wood with the right size hole subs for it now, again with wax paper). If it looks okay, I'll put the "ring" in place on final mast install, and think it will be a decent effect.

[allanyed]

Dave,

The above recommendations are good ones.  If you want to leave off the canvas to show the wedges you can make a wooden ring and then with a very thin coping saw  or jeweler's saw blade cut slits to represent individual wedges.  There are some excellent photos of this method on one of the current build logs, I just cannot remember which one.  A search of wedges should get you there or a member here may recall where this is.

There was no metal ring and as said above is just a cheap and easy way out for the kit builder, ornate or not.   The rings really have no bearing on what the cannons look like.  If you are shooting for historical accuracy the advice above should be something to seriously consider.

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

8 hours ago, allanyed said:

Dave,

The above recommendations are good ones.  If you want to leave off the canvas to show the wedges you can make a wooden ring and then with a very thin coping saw  or jeweler's saw blade cut slits to represent individual wedges.  There are some excellent photos of this method on one of the current build logs, I just cannot remember which one.  A search of wedges should get you there or a member here may recall where this is.

There was no metal ring and as said above is just a cheap and easy way out for the kit builder, ornate or not.   The rings really have no bearing on what the cannons look like.  If you are shooting for historical accuracy the advice above should be something to seriously consider.

Allan

Ok Alannanyed I get what you mean and I understand what everyone is telling me and I appreciate all the help and advice I have been given. So How to I make a ring large enough to fit over the mast without a lathe. Is this something I need to make out of a block of Walnut ( not supplied with the kit and do not have at hand) I  still think as this is my first model of this kind and only my second model ever I am jn two minds whether or not to take the easy option and just try and get her built The guy in the Amati video just used the rings supplied in the kit and he had some pretty cool ideas and as far as I can see made a excellent job of building the Bounty.

[allanyed]

If you are going to use wood, you might want to consider something close grained in place of the type of walnut found in kits which will likely fall apart before you are finished.  American black walnut is an exception in my experience.   Even a softer species such as basswood or poplar will work, but any close grained hard wood is probably a better choice.   You can start with a small block that is perhaps three or four times larger than the OD of the ring.  Clamp it in a vice and drill a hole to match the diameter of the mast at the deck.  Then take off a slice  that would be the right thickness of the ring above the deck.  Then you can cut a circle with a scroll saw close to the OD or take of individual sections with a hand saw and then round it with sanding sticks.   Another thing you can do is sand and taper a small piece of dowel rod that will fit snugly into the ring you just rough cut once it is close to the final OD.   Chuck the dowel in a drill and sand the OD while it is spinning.    Once it is to size you can remove it from the dowel and cut the slits and voila, it is done.   If you are going to have it represent the canvas cover, you can forgo the slits and paint it gray.

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

If you are going to use wood, you might want to consider something close grained in place of the type of walnut found in kits which will likely fall apart before you are finished.  American black walnut is an exception in my experience.   Even a softer species such as basswood or poplar will work, but any close grained hard wood is probably a better choice.   You can start with a small block that is perhaps three or four times larger than the OD of the ring.  Clamp it in a vice and drill a hole to match the diameter of the mast at the deck.  Then take off a slice  that would be the right thickness of the ring above the deck.  Then you can cut a circle with a scroll saw close to the OD or take of individual sections with a hand saw and then round it with sanding sticks.   Another thing you can do is sand and taper a small piece of dowel rod that will fit snugly into the ring you just rough cut once it is close to the final OD.   Chuck the dowel in a drill and sand the OD while it is spinning.    Once it is to size you can remove it from the dowel and cut the slits and voila, it is done.   If you are going to have it represent the canvas cover, you can forgo the slits and paint it gray.

Allan

Thanks for that Allan and I think I will make sure I have the required marerial before tackling the work. I will see if I can get my hands on some close grained wood for my next model. In the mean time I will probably go for the cast ring and just paint them. Do I need to file out the holes or can I just narrow the mast slightly to fit through the ring?

I must thank you once again for all your help. I really do want to eventually do things the correct way but at present just want to continue with the basics and eventually get more involved with my second and hopefully more models of this type. Best regards Dave

[allanyed]

Dave

If the mast is the correct diameter where it pierces the deck, file the ring.  If the mast is larger in diameter than it should be, sand the mast.  I have no idea what the mast diameter is supposed to be, but lacking information for colliers launched in 1784, you might be close using the formulas in Lees' Masting and Rigging for Royal Navy vessels launched between 1773 and 1794 on page 183.  

 

Allan

[DaveBaxt]

9 hours ago, allanyed said:

Dave

If the mast is the correct diameter where it pierces the deck, file the ring.  If the mast is larger in diameter than it should be, sand the mast.  I have no idea what the mast diameter is supposed to be, but lacking information for colliers launched in 1784, you might be close using the formulas in Lees' Masting and Rigging for Royal Navy vessels launched between 1773 and 1794 on page 183.  

 

Allan

I Thanks Allan. I will check the diameter of the mast just in case they are bigger than 8mm as I have no idea. I only read something about reducing the mast diameter where it enters the deck Ship Modeling Simplified by Mastini but I think that was if the holes in the deck required drilling. For the record the mast were quite tight in the holes in the deck certainly after planking the deck so I filed out the holes in the deck to make a loose fit. Not slack so just hoping this would be ok. Best regards Dave

[Dr PR]

Most ship modeling books recommend against gluing the masts in place. If they aren't at the proper angles you are stuck with it. If the mast fits a bit loose you can correct the angles with the rigging.

 

I visited the Bounty replica used for the Marlon Brando movie but I don't remember a lot about it. It was built oversized to create room for the camera trolleys to move freely along the deck. Somewhere I have a bunch of 35mm slides.

 

Did the masts have any rake (angled back toward the stern) or were they 90 degree vertical from the horizontal? If there is a rake it can be tricky to get the right angle through the wedge ring. I would file out the wedge ring to accept the diameter of the mast rather than trying to reduce the diameter of the mast.

 

Since you are building from a kit you will probably want to use the supplied masts. But if you are really anal about details and want to create your own masts from scratch I have attached an image of a spreadsheet I prepared for my current project (a topsail schooner). It contains the masting rules for ships from Lees and Zu Mondfeld. Ignore the Fincham and Rankine rules - they are for schooners and the masts were much smaller diameter and longer  than for square rigged sailing ships. The numbers are for my model of a ship with a 20 foot beam.

 

Just about all the dimensions are based upon the beam of the ship (the widest breadth midships). The mast and spar lengths are in feet and diameters are in inches, and for the real 1:1 scale ships. Just figure out the real dimensions using the Bounty's breadth and divide them by the scale of the model you are building.

 

And if you want to replace the kit thread with scale ropes I have posted spreadsheets for rigging here:

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Dr PR

[rwiederrich]

On 2/9/2021 at 11:17 PM, Dr PR said:

I visited the Bounty replica used for the Marlon Brando movie but I don't remember a lot about it. It was built oversized to create room for the camera trolleys to move freely along the deck. Somewhere I have a bunch of 35mm slides.

 

My father-n-law was a Navy crewmen who served as the crew on the Bounty during her filming in Tahiti.

 

Too bad she sunk.....

 

Rob