chase gun port lids

[georgeband]

I am building HM Schooner Whiting in 1/64 using the Caldercraft Ballahoo and Admiralty drawings for Haddock and Cuckoo. The drawings show two square features on the transom which I take to be ports for chase guns. It would be cramped around the tiller to serve a gun or two but nevertheless the drawings are quite clear that the ports are there. 

 

What I do not know is how the ports were kept shut. There is no detail on the drawings. Discussions elsewhere about gun port lids are for a conventional broadside arrangement where the bulwark or side slopes inwards and lids that hinge up and out to open them are an obvious engineering solution. However, the transom slopes out and this approach of hinged at the top and opening outwards does not seem very practical: there would be a catch or sliding bolt at the bottom edge which carries half the weight of the lid when it is closed, and some arrangement to keep it open would also be needed. 

Two alternatives that I can think of are 

1. Hinged at the top but opening inwards. Rebates around the frame would support the weight of the lid when it was closed. A catch at the bottom would have to stop a following wave from pushing the lid in. The open position for the lid would be up and over so it lies at 180deg from the closed position. 

2. A loose lid that sits on a rebate when it is closed. The bottom edge is retained by an iron or wood stop, and the top is held closed by a sliding bolt or wedge. To open the port the lid would be lifted out by two seamen. 

 

Does anyone know what method was actually used? It would apply not just for a schooner but for all smaller vessels such a cutters and sloops. Failing that I would gladly listen to an informed opinion. 

 

George

 

[Charles Green]

Since these are stern ports on a weather deck, could it be there were no lids?

[mtaylor]

I would say, either no lids or bucklers.  But most likely, no lids being on a weather deck.

[georgeband]

Thanks for your suggestions, Mark and Charles.

 

No lids is one answer but it would leave me with a problem about where to put the ship's name: if the transom has two big holes in it then writing 'Whiting' gets difficult... Most pictures of smaller vessels have the name across the transom even though there is provision for chase guns at the stern so some sort of lid appears to be standard practice. 

 

The mention of bucklers makes me think of them opening inwards with some rebates to support them in the closed position. It's plausible but I would like to see some evidence if this is what happened. 

 

No prize yet so please come up with more ideas!

 

George

[allanyed]

George

Are the pictures of the smaller vessels with the name on the transom  contemporary paintings or modern pictures?   The reason I ask is that other than vessels in modern times, the only time  there would have been the name on the stern of the vessel of the RN  was between 1772 and 1782, started and stopped by order of the Admiralty.   I assume your project is for the schooner Whiting 1805 so she would not have any name on the transom.

Allan

Edited February 15, 2021 by allanyed

[druxey]

Apart from the weather deck/no port lid question, the angle of the transom would make reading any lettering on it problematic.

[georgeband]

Thanks again for more information. I did not know about the Admiralty orders concerning names on the stern and am pleased to learn something. Do all these models of cutters and schooners that have a prominent name on the stern perpetuate a mistaken assumption? There are plenty of conventions in model making and this is one which I had not questioned. Similarly, is it a convention to 'put wood in the hole' and have a solid transom, instead of leaving the ports open? 

 

I shall look through the pictures I have to try to find examples from contemporary paintings or models. 

 

Druxey: The transom on Whiting is 30deg from the frames, so about 35deg from vertical when she is afloat. The name would be readable I think though the lettering would be foreshortened. Good point. 

 

George

[mtaylor]

The model companies for kits do perpetuate a lot of myths and incorrect information.  So,.. caution is advised.

[druxey]

Speaking of convention/myth: English ships in the 18th century never had lettering in relief - only painted on. This 'style' was started by a well-known American model-maker - some of you will know who I am referring  to - in the last century.

[georgeband]

I have had a look through some of my books and there is a mixed message about chase ports and names. Surely no-one expected clarity?

 

Brian Lavery 'Nelsons Navy'. p65. A line of text states 'The names of the ships were painted on the counter of the stern.' This might only apply to proper ships, and the counter on a schooner like Whiting was around 50deg from vertical so it would be unreadable. The same page has a picture of a model of HMS Boyne 1790 at the Science Museum, London. There is a lot of carving on display, no name, and the gun port lids on the deck below the cabins are hanging vertically from the bottom edge of the ports. 

Brian Lavery 'Nelsons Navy'. p144. A painting of Hermione being cut out shows her name clearly. Two cannon are visible at the stern below the cabin but I cannot make out the port lids. 

Brian Lavery 'Nelsons Navy'. p257. A painting of Vanguard at the battle of the Nile shows her name, but again this is on a proper ship. 

Peter Goodwin 'Naval cutter Alert'. pp33-34. A contemporary model of Hawke shows her name on the transom. 

Peter Goodwin 'Naval cutter Alert'. pp42-43. A model of a cutter of around 1785 has no name on the stern. The stern ports are open for the cannons and it looks like the lids are hinged at the top and open outwards. 

Marquardt 'Global Schooner'. Nothing relevant.

Chapelle 'Baltimore Clipper'. Nothing relevant.

 

The case is unproven at the moment and any choice could be defended. Other sources of information beyond Admiralty drawings and contemporary paintings can provide valuable clues. 

I am currently deciphering the handwriting in Lieut. Roach's log book (he was on Whiting in 1806) and have found conclusive, revealing comments about her armament and coppering and sail plan. There is also one about her being painted but no detail about what was painted and in which colour. There might be something later about the stern chase ports and I can only hope that I find it (if it is there) before I put knife to wood on my model. 

Whiting gets several mentions in the Royal Bermuda Gazette in 1805 and they refer to her as the Whiten. This suggests that her name was given orally to the journalist and he did not see it painted on her stern, or perhaps he was not very good at his job and spelled the name wrong despite seeing it. 

 

Thanks for all your comments and advice. More please!

 

George

[druxey]

Sometimes museum models can also mislead, having names painted on as an 'improvement' at a later date! 

Edited February 16, 2021 by druxey

[georgeband]

I have built the counter and transom on Whiting and postponed a decision about the chase ports. At the moment there is some thin ply filling the gap which I can cut out or plank to mimic a closed lid. Part of the reason for hesitating is that there are some good looking models of the cutter Cheerful (also 1805) which show her with port lids. I have to dig a little deeper in this vein to find the thinking behind this approach. I would appreciate even more comments and advice. 

I drilled holes in the ply former for the transom to align the planking on the inner and outer faces. The thick ply structures at each side are the side walls to a pantry (starboard) and the 'necessary' to port. 

 

 

 

George

[georgeband]

I am reviving this thread because the time is fast approaching for me to decide on the stern ports for Whiting. My thoughts are that Whiting would have ports that can be closed because of the risks from a following sea: waves could easily enter through stern ports and the water would then be trapped in a short section of deck that runs from the transom to a step up where the deck is over the captain's cabin. I also think it looks better for my model. So much for my justifications. 

 

Peter Goodwin's Alert book has photos of a cutter model 'around 1785' that was displayed in the Science Museum, London. The photos show port lids that are hinged at the top and open outwards, much like the ports on the sides of the cutter. This is the style I plan to use on Whiting. Unfortunately, the resolution of the photos is poor and I cannot discern any details. Even more unfortunately the Science Museum closed its ship models display some ten years ago and there is no reasonable chance of seeing this cutter. 

 

My plea for help! Does anyone have photos of this model which show the stern ports? Or a similar model where there are hinged port lids? Otherwise I have to resort to engineering judgment and guesswork and that is a route which is harder to defend. 

 

George

[jud]

Being an X Navy Gunners Mate, I like Guns, Lots of Guns, but why would a perfectly good Schooner need Chase Guns? If pursued, steer upwind and run off over the horizon if over gunned. Also guns and carriages are heavy, the stern of a schooner is a poor place to be adding the weight of guns, carriages and crews that can only be fired aft and those guns and carriages would be the devil to move elsewhere to trim the ship or to store amidships and move them into an position if needed. Forget the Ports, not a logical place for an armed schooner to have guns, just the additional structure to handle the weight cantilevered aft, would handicap the ship and slow her down.

 

[georgeband]

Jud, SpyGlass, 

 

Thanks for your comments about aft chase guns. According to the Admiralty drawings Whiting had ports in her stern but I cannot see how they could fit guns into the tight space around them, let alone serve them. She only carried four guns (two 6lb cannon and two 12lb carronades) and moving one of them into the stern would itself have been a difficult operation with a step up and a step down in the deck on the way. 

 

I doubt if the Fish (Ballahou) class were expected to carry stern chase guns but I have no evidence for this. It seems likely but I still have to decide what to do about the port lids. 

 

As for running away upwind, that is a good plan if your little schooner is being chased by a square rigger. Whiting was not so lucky and was captured twice in 1812, by schooners, though the first capture (by an American privateer Dash) was more by subterfuge than skill at sailing. 

 

George

[druxey]

Also, those ports would have been very handy for throwing gash - garbage - through in those days when pollution wasn't a consideration! I suppose, should the tiller break or be shot away, emergency steering lines could be taken through these ports as well.

[AON]

George

What an interesting question.

 

I was cleaning up my computer the other day and came across an image of the Victory's chase gun ports.  It likely does not apply to your build but it was a fascinating sketch.  I was so glad I kept it and wondered how I might have forgotten about it.

 

Now, do you think I could find it again?

 

It showed the lights (windows) above the removable bench that ran across the bulkhead.  The deadlight or wooden covering that raise from below the lights, between the bulkhead and the bench via lead weights, a line and pulley on each side.

 

The bench would be removed and the deadlight raised to reveal the chase port which was locked via two sliding bolts, one to each side, like you might see on a fence gate or old pantry door.

 

I wish it would show itself again.

Alan

[AON]

Found it!

Of course back then I never thought of recording the source. 

Once again, this likely doesn`t apply but it is interesting how simple it all was.

[Morgan]

It’s from Peter Goodwin’s  ‘The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War 1650 - 1850’

 

Gary

[georgeband]

Alan,

Thank you for taking the time to search for a remembered drawing. There must be some interesting history behind those sketches. 

 

I have mentally explored a lot of ideas for a stern port lid. Top hinged and opening outwards has similarities to conventional gun ports and this gives it some credibility. In this situation I would have a rope on the outer face that comes over the transom and ties to a cleat 'somewhere' to hold the lid in the open position. When the lid is closed this rope would be tied to the same cleat so that the end is not lost; a sailing friend has described a cleat which has a hole in it to trap the end of such a rope. 

Something is needed to hold the lid shut since gravity would pull it down. A sliding bolt, or a wood bar through a hoop would do the job, or another rope tied to a cleat. I like the concept of a rope and the lid hanging slightly open because this would let water out, but a following wave would push it shut against a rebate. Thanks for planting that idea above, SpyGlass. (This all  reminds me of leading 'brainstorming' sessions at work, in the days when I still worked.) 

 

George

[Lieste]

I would hinge it at the bottom on an outward sloping counter. It is much easier to hold the port closed, and allow it to be open from the same line in this arrangement, with just a simple cleat.

Top or side hinges (or a split port with a hinged upper and lower or left and right, or a removable shutter are other arrangements seen on the vertical on inward canted sides.

[jud]

Going to keep the openings, you will be needing some Bitts and Fairleads leading to them.

 

[georgeband]

Lieste,

Great minds think alike! I had the same idea as you but have not seen evidence for it, and also thought of a problem: if the port lid is open and hanging down loose then it will be vulnerable to waves hitting it. Because of the leverage the force of a wave would be magnified at the hinge, which could be damaged. 

 

I have now decided on the top hinged, outward opening design. Internet searches have not shown any more detail about the Science Museum (London) model so there will be some guesswork here. 

 

Thank you all for your suggestions. 

 

George

[georgeband]

The finished port lids are now posted on my build log for Whiting. It is now too late for a revelation to show what I should have done! 

 

George