Dutch yacht by henry x - RESTORATION

[henry x]

Had a look around the net and found these drawings of von Bremen made by a Chinese company but think sold by Amati maybe built under licence but not 100% sure. You will see there is 2 posts involved along with a cross rail but the spacing differs from mine but i think i could use something like it.  The remaining photo's show my little dilemma just using a spill baton to illustrate, from what i gather the bowsprit should be 5mm dia x 194mm but unless i cut it away like i show in the spill it will hide the holes in the stem required for rigging or would not be the correct angle. Hope you can follow the photo's, it would be nice if some of you who must have a model of the von Bremen post a pic of yours i cannot be the only one in the world who owns this model. Will now get on with the painting.

 

Henry x 

[henry x]

Well all a bit disappointed with reply's apart from Keith, Gregory and a couple others yes i know there are a lot of kit's out there regarding this type of model surely someone must have seen this model before. Nearest i have come so far is the yacht D.oro ( Brandenburg yacht ) which clearly shows 2 post's like this one ( one's on the model are 1" apart )  but i'm not too happy with the way the bowsprit is fixed although Corel say the their models are historically accurate i'm not interested in that i only want to try and find out how THIS model was made. There is of course a model of the prins von oranje in the NMM. and i would really love to see a photo of how the real bowsprit was attached but i know that's not going to happen. Will plod on. 

 

Henry x

Edited March 6, 2021 by henry x

[Chuck]

So how goes progress on this restoration?

[Roger Pellett]

Henry,

 

i’m not sure exactly what your question is but on a real vessel the two metal straps would not adequately support the bowsprit.  

 

A more logical arrangement would be for the butt of the bowsprit to be secured to the knight head structure just forward of the windlass or through the deck planking to one of the deck beams via an iron strap.  The bowsprit would pass by the side of the stem, further secured by another iron strap as shown on the museum model pictured above.  This second iron strap should be secured to the stem, not the much weaker head structure as it presently is on your model.

 

Roger

[amateur]

Added two pics of the Utrecht, a full-scale sailing reconstruction of a Dutch Statenjacht:

the bowsprit is resting on a wooden rest at the stern, and butts against the "catheads". There is some kind of gammoning to keep the bowsprit down in its rest.

This was, at least in my quickscan of models, a common solution. Kingposts and knightheads were not used, and the bowsprit of these ships were not 'retractable'

 

The cathead self is attached to the inner side of the stern, so the strap you see is actually fixed on top of the railing (wich is rather heavy, as the railing is formed by the upper frame parts.

 

So, in the pic above it is not the bowsprit that is wrong, but it is the pinrail and knighheads that are out of place

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by amateur

[henry x]

Hi all,

Joined another forum to try and get more info but I have myself have found more info will post some Pict's tomorrow. Restoration I think coming along not too bad again will post some Pict's tomorrow.

 

I think amateur will be really interested seeing how he was the one that brought it to out attention.

 

Henry x

[henry x]

Well let me try to explain again what i'm trying to do is find out if i can what goes in front of the windlass and how was the bowsprit is attached on this model which i will now call the PoO. and i would like to get it correct.  Now let's start with what we do know there were 2 post fixed to the deck and the bowsprit ( now BS )was glued to the hull between the gunwale and the stem, ref #91 you will see 2 posts on the drawing and the BS is attached using a metal strap nearly but i think the strap and the way the BS goes under the rail rules it out . I like to think what Gregory posted #80 that the BS was fixed to the plank in the manner shown and of coarse a similar fixing is shown in the EEU WS Statenjacht but there are so many Statenjachts it' finding the correct one.  Now Jan look deeply and see if my thinking is correct the model i'm about to post shows the mid cabin and i know it's not the correct name but it is very similar to the PoO, the fire buckets and the stern apart from its extremities is the same so my thinking is the deck fwd of the windlass might also have been copied where it shows 3 posts if that was replaced by the column holding the ships bell on the PoO. and the BS fixing similar to the EEU WS Statenjacht maybe that is the answer.

 

What do you think.

 

Henry x 

 

P.S  Have bought the book  Risse von Schiffe by Rolf Hoeckel maybe it might provide some more info.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by henry x

[henry x]

Restoration wise  i think you will see some progress i started on the cannon but that really took some time i think i said already 2 of the barrel are missing and they are actually held on to the carriage by very fine sand paper which i said earlier was a veneer strip, waiting for rigging thread to arrive and i may need to order some blocks, i will make a mould for the cannon barrels and just use pewter although i do have a proper furnace in my greenhouse of all places but i do have camping stoves which i will use for pewter it should melt that. At the moment i could refit the fire buckets but before all that i'm going to up end it one last time to finish of the hull there are a couple of small lumps and bumps i will attend to you don't know they are but i do, so if the jobs worth doing it' worth doing right. So that's about it for now the next week or so is going to be slow.

[Keith Black]

 Henry, you're doing a bang up job on cleaning up the model. A difference between night and day of the cannon in picture #3 and the cannons cleaned up and stationed on deck in photo #8. Little detains are starting to show as in photo #9. 

 

 It might be easier to order two cannon barrels (provided you can locate the same size and type) and cheaper time wise from a supplier, Cornwall Model Boats comes to mind. https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk. If nothing else it's fun going through their offerings of parts. They carry belaying pins, blocks, cannon barrels, and many many more items. I have no motive in promoting CMB other than they are a good supplier, I speak from personal experience. 

 

 Keep up the good work.......KB

 

[henry x]

Keith.  A very good point will look into that tomorrow . What put me off from some dealers was when you get to the check out is filling out the pay form its all the questions sometimes they ask what did you have for your dinner Amati Italy 5 euros for this only if you spend 20 euros then the bill becomes 30 odd euros and then postage what a con.  Glad to see Cornwall have Amati parts will defenately  check it out tomorrow. Many thanks for that.

 

 

Henry x 

[Roger Pellett]

Henry,

 

I don’t know if your book is supposed to portray actual practice but it clearly shows the butt end of the bowsprit fastened to the pinrail just forward of the windlass.  It is mounted in a pair of trunnions to allow it to be pivoted up to clear obstacles in close quarters.

[henry x]

Roger thanks for that but remember we a not talking about historical accurate ship.  The model above shows 3 areas VERY similar to the PoO which makes me think the front end will also be very similar but think the PoO has more quality and Hoeckel's book not yet arrived maybe just maybe has the answer,also interesting where did the plans come from.

 

Keith have sent email to the dealer but will phone him/her later (need to wait till the wife go's out) 

 

Henry x

[GrandpaPhil]

Nice job cleaning up the model!  It’s looking good!

 

[amateur]

Hi Henry,

 

you will have to make a decision on what your goal is: quite a lot of the kits of Statenjachten are based on Hoeckels "reconstruction" of the Brandenburger Jacht. Problem is: Hoekel did his work early 20th century, in a period he had no access to written sources, no body of academic knowledge to start from, so quite a lot of what he did was pure conjecture, often not in line with contemporary models. So: absolutely not useful to getyour model 'historically correct', but useful toget an idea of what the kitmaker had as a starting point.

 

But now you have a "problem" you have a historically correct solution, you have Hoeckels not so historically correct picture of that, you have the kitmakers not so faithfull translation of that not so historically correct picture into a kit, and you have the builders interpretation of what the kitmaker suggested. In other words, your starttingpoint is a long way off from the historical model. So: are you going to restore the model 'as model': take the drawings of Amati as example and keep to those. Are you going to improve on the model: skip the drawings, skip Hoeckel, and take a better suited source as example a contemporaneous model, a reconstruction (like the Utrecht) or a book that is better equipped, like the one by Werner Jaeger.

 

any mix-up between those will lead to 'problems' as the one with your bowsprit, but will also arise with deck-layout, the sidewindows, the steering, the rigging.....

 

with respect to the bowsprit: the solution shown in the book is essentially the same as used in the Utrecht, and very much in accordance to the contemporeneous models of Dutch yachts: not a pinrail, but a very heave cathead-timber, used to secure the end of the bowsprit. Knightheads and pinrails do not belong to the Dutch set-up, and are invented by a kitmaker.

 

Jan

[henry x]

Jan 

 

That is some beautiful reply and I have read it over and over. The reason I bought Hoeckels book was to try and find out info nothing else but from your reply I can now see that's a waste of money the book is still in the post when It will arrive I don't know.  If I may refer you #22 where I said I would like to restore it as it once was to do anything else would be wrong (in my eyes)you must respect the builder and there in Lie's the problem. When you mention Amati' s drawings, I have only seen the drawing of von Bremen and pictures of the same and that does not equate to what I am holding in my hand the builder must have had a plan to follow if you are now saying the builder invented that then I must say I do not agree. What i have already said is construction wise prince of orange and von Bremen are exactly the same but the deck furnishings and the plaque are not the same and I don't think the builder invented the plaque.  If only a drawing of Amati's Prince of Orange could be found that would solve all the problems.  If in the end I am forced to build what I think is correct would be a pity unless hopefully something turns up. What i will say is there are people out there hiding behind the woodwork who will say when I am finished you should have done or this or that and so on always happens.  What I have not yet said is the nails on this build are tapered from the head to a needle point something I have not seen in my life time here in the UK regarding a model, maybe you had in the continent and that may also help to date it.

 

I think why people hide in the woodwork is they fear the taxman will see they are still alive.

 

Keith my order has been shipped and the people have very nice.

 

Henry x

.

[Keith Black]

59 minutes ago, henry x said:

Keith my order has been shipped and the people have very nice.

 Henry, good to hear. They've always (by they I mean Sarah) been nice to me and have always been helpful. Hopefully everything arrives as you expect. Did you order cannon barrels? 

[henry x]

Yes cannon barrels along with blocks and other things you will see

[Keith Black]

Henry, I hope you and the restoration are doing well. I look forward to seeing an update on your efforts. 

[Keith Black]

Henry, I've often thought of you and your restoration effort over these past months. You've not posted for some time, I do hope all is well with you and yours. Please provide an update or just a brief message if possible. Happy Holidays........Keith

[pollex]

Gentlemen; Your discussion of the Dutch yachts reminds me of the replica of "Nonsuch"

that was built in Devon, UK.  It was built to celebrate the 300 th anniversary of the start of

the Hudson's Bay Company in 1670. This replica "Nonsuch"  is now kept in downtown

Winnipeg.  I think the late Alan Villiers was involved in sailing the replica to Canada. The

vessel size and rigging of "Nonsuch" seems similar to the Dutch yachts being discussed.

Regards  Pollex, Calgary

 

[DaKea90]

As you've almost directly adressed me and my Yacht d'Oro, I will say some things:

When I built my Yacht, it was my first ship in decades and furthermore the first scratch built one for me. I had pretty bad plans to begin with and I did not question them. I built the bowsprit as the plans called for and what can be seen on this picture, that you posted.

This is one of the things, I would maybe do differently, if i built the Yacht again or at least think about it a bit.

 

If you ask, how the bowsprit was fixed to the hull, I think you should think about the forces, the pull the bowsprit. In this case, it's the outer jib pulling the tip of the bowsprit upwards. If you fix it to the stem (?) (the place of the forward iron strap on the picture), you create an axis, through which the upward pull of the jib creates a downward push at the butt of the bowsprit. On your picture, the butt is resting upon the reling, which can take these forces. It's furthermore fixated there by another iron strip. So it seems plausible to me, that this version could work. Another versions could be, that the butt rests upon the pinrail (not my favourite option) or another structure or is extended to rest on the deck.