How to connect yards to masts??

[ObviousNewbie]

Hi all,

 

I'm currently building Occre's Frigate Diana (Build Log on MSW). Having finished off the hull and both Fore and Main mast, and the foremast yardarms, I find myself struggling with attaching the yardarms to the mast. Tried using a clove hitch, but that doesn't seem to work. Thinking about inserting a small brass rod in the mast and connecting the yardarm to that, but that seems too fragile. Any handy tips/comments/pictures are much appreciated, thnx!

Edited March 21, 2021 by ObviousNewbie

[allanyed]

Newb,

The short answer -  based on Lee's Masting and Rigging,  the fore yard and main yard in 1794 would be secured to the mast with a truss pendant and the topsail and top gallant yards would be secured to their appropriate masts with parrel ropes using two rows of trucks (rollers) and ribs.  There would also be the jeers  on the lower yards and ties on the topsail yards for raising and lowering them.   Lees' Masting and Rigging shows detailed drawings on how these are rigged.   I am sorry I am not posting these drawings from Lees but there are copyrights involved.  There may be images in the public domain on the 'net .

Allan

Edited March 20, 2021 by allanyed

[shipman]

Again......'fair use' allows the use of selected images to illustrate a point.

In this 'educational' context, copy right issues are mute.

Period.

 

Guidelines. Fair use explicitly allows use of copyrighted materials for educational purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. ... Nature of the work: For copying paragraphs from a copyrighted source, fair use easily applies

[Jim Rogers]

Your brass rod idea is spot on. See photo. Then once the yard is secured you can attach with trusses or parrel lines. I have no idea why this loads photos upside down every time. Most annoying.

[allanyed]

Sorry to be posting this here, but it follows the previous post and is probably applicable to most of the other forums here.

Shipman, I agree with you that the issue over all is in fact moot, that is, it is open to debate, not a closed issue.  I would be p...d off if someone posted my drawings without permission.   I did find the following, at least for the US.   

 

Unless you own the copyright to an image or have a license from the owner, posting it online without permission is a violation of copyright.  

 

In addition, regarding fair use, there is a limit.   The following should be taken into consideration.

 

Without consent, you ordinarily cannot use another person's protected expression in a way that impairs (or even potentially impairs) the market for his or her work.    In other words, will posting someone else's work have potential to cause the copyright holder to lose business?   Then again,  I suspect that snippets that we see posted might actually induce some to buy the  book rather than the other way around 😃 

 

There is also the possibility of transcribing a written paragraph or redrawing an image rather than just copying and posting.

 

Just my opinion, but would love to hear from a member that has experience in this arena.   

 

Allan

[wefalck]

This has nothing to do with the actual subject of the thread, but I would second Allan's point.

 

You may use copyrighted material in an 'educational' context in the sense that you can use images etc. in a lecture. Giving the slides in electronic format or as hand-outs to your students or pupils could be borderline, but is accepted practice.

 

In order to use copyrighted material in formal publications (journals, books) requires the permission of the authors or the copyright-holders. I have been repeatedly in the bizarre situation wanting to re-use some graphics I drew for reports when being an UN staffer many years ago, that I had to ask the UN organisation for permission to do so.

 

Although reading through posts may be educational, an Internet-forum is not an educational undertaking in the sense of the copyright.

 

I guess using occasionally small snippets from graphics in a book etc. to illustrate a point would in most cases not violate the copyright and the economic interests of the copyright holder. At least not to a degree that would justify legal action. One could indeed argue that it may raise interest in obtaining (legally) the whole publication.

 

The above applies to original artwork and other material that can be copyrighted. There is a bit of grey zone for material on which in principle the copyright has expired because the original copyright holder has been deceased for a certain minimum period that varies from country to country. Here in Europe it is 70 years and in the US 90 years I believe. Museums and archives holding these items may claim to have the copyright, because they have an economic interest in selling copies or licenses to use these copies. 

[mgdawson]

22 hours ago, Jim Rogers said:

I have no idea why this loads photos upside down every time. Most annoying.

That's for those of us downunder.

 

[barkeater]

Back to the original question. If you follow the rigging as shown in Lee's book or others you should not need to use a brass rod. I would recommend Petersson's "Rigging Period Ship Models" as the book is all simplified illustrations of different lines including lifts, truss pendants, jeers, slings and pendants along with braces. There is very little if any text and no discussion of different changes over time like Lee's book but the drawings are clear and simple.  

Rich

[shipman]

I'm sorry if I have vexed some members on the copyright issue and sincere apologies to 'ON'  for unintentionally using his post in this regard.

My last word on the matter here is this googled response to my question applied to the USA.....

 

''Codified in Section 107 of the Copyright Act, fair use allows persons other than the copyright owner to make certain limited uses of copyrighted material without the copyright owner's permission (17 U.S.C. § 107). Fair use is an affirmative defense to copyright infringement. ... Nature of the copyrighted work''.

[Baker]

On 3/20/2021 at 2:45 PM, Jim Rogers said:

Your brass rod idea is spot on. See photo. Then once the yard is secured you can attach with trusses or parrel lines. I have no idea why this loads photos upside down every time. Most annoying.

The file of the picture is too large.
If you reduce this, the problem is solved

 

 

 

 

[AON]

Shipman and Weflack.

I agree with the free use as described.

I also like Lee's but sometimes find it difficult to digest.

 

Barkeater.

Petersson is a fine book for illustrations that I seem to gravitate to myself and it makes things easier to follow.

 

The issue is does ObviousNewbie care to rig his model in such a way.... or does he want to simply secure the yard to the mast... or both?

 

If it is both, then I believe a pin, be it metal or wood, will do the job of securing it in place, then follow with proper rigging.

If ObviousNewbie is interested in seeing illustrations by Petersson please contact me via PM.

Alan

[allanyed]

I very much like and have used Anderson's book for ships built before the 1719 Establishment but it is not always applicable to later ships such as Diana which was from 1794.   Some things remained the same, many things are not.   For example there were no preventer stays before 1700 and these were not snaked together until sometime in the 18th century and then, usually only in wartime. Another example has to do with the rigging of the yard to the mast as mentioned previously as the lower yards had parrel ropes before 1760 which Anderson describes in some detail but they would not be appropriate for Diana.  

 

It may be that I have a small paperback copy, but Anderson's illustrations are sketches and not very clear.  (It could also just be these old eyes 🤪) 

 

Allan

[rraisley]

I have the same problem with my HMS Victory cross-section: Longridge's book shows parrals with rollers on the upper two locations, but mentions a truss on the lower mast. Yet the only drawing I've seen of a truss is simply a rope looped around it. It just seems funny to me we have a fancy holding mechanism on the upper two, and a length of rope on the lower one.

 

I'm really fairly stymied on the procedure with the main mast and spars; I know there should be blocks attached in some places, but it's hard to determine where. I'm afraid of getting ahead of myself, and finding it impossible to add what I need in the places they need to be. I've just been reading and searching everything I can, and looking in the four books I did buy to make this model. I can't justify more sources yet. Especially since no one but I will notice it. 😉

[Dr PR]

I recently posted drawings of three types of trusses used to hold yards to masts. Unfortunately I cannot locate that thread right now. If I do I will post a link here.

[popeye2sea]

14 hours ago, rraisley said:

I have the same problem with my HMS Victory cross-section: Longridge's book shows parrals with rollers on the upper two locations, but mentions a truss on the lower mast. Yet the only drawing I've seen of a truss is simply a rope looped around it. It just seems funny to me we have a fancy holding mechanism on the upper two, and a length of rope on the lower one.

 

I'm really fairly stymied on the procedure with the main mast and spars; I know there should be blocks attached in some places, but it's hard to determine where. I'm afraid of getting ahead of myself, and finding it impossible to add what I need in the places they need to be. I've just been reading and searching everything I can, and looking in the four books I did buy to make this model. I can't justify more sources yet. Especially since no one but I will notice it. 😉

The difference lies in the fact that the upper yards need to move up and down on the mast to set and furl sails, whereas the main yard (lowest) remains fixed in position.  So you will see the upper yards held in to the mast with the roller parrels.

The main yard will be held in place with a combination of gear consisting of:

The halliard or jeers that hoist it into place.

A sling to help take the weight and suspend the yard.

A truss pendant to hold the yard in to the mast.

Lifts to assist in taking the weight of the yard extremities and control the cant of the yard.

 

Regards,

[Dr PR]

I posted a bit about trusses, truss pendants and truss parrals (all often referred to as just Trusses) on this post:

 

 

[Lieste]

19 hours ago, rraisley said:

I have the same problem with my HMS Victory cross-section: Longridge's book shows parrals with rollers on the upper two locations, but mentions a truss on the lower mast. Yet the only drawing I've seen of a truss is simply a rope looped around it. It just seems funny to me we have a fancy holding mechanism on the upper two, and a length of rope on the lower one.

 

I'm really fairly stymied on the procedure with the main mast and spars; I know there should be blocks attached in some places, but it's hard to determine where. I'm afraid of getting ahead of myself, and finding it impossible to add what I need in the places they need to be. I've just been reading and searching everything I can, and looking in the four books I did buy to make this model. I can't justify more sources yet. Especially since no one but I will notice it. 😉

When not set, the upper (topsail and t'gallant) yards are lowered to just above the head of the mast cap of the section below. This relatively frequent movement is aided by the 'fancy rollers'. The lower yards are kept clear of the working deck with the courses merely clewed up or furled when not set. If you are not lowering them frequently, then simple rope loops are simpler, cheaper, lighter and sufficient to 'back-up' the other elements of rigging (the rigging could be adjusted to allow a damaged yard to be exchanged or repaired on deck, and then swayed back up if needed, but normal operation didn't adjust the height of these particular parts of the sparring).