Rigging Confusions - Lifts, Halyards and More, Oh My!

[rraisley]

I'm trying to start on the rigging of my Corel Victory cross-section, and think the rigging described and shown in the kit is rather simplistic (despite the fact that I still can't figure it all out), and so I've looked at maybe a dozen sources, and in many ways, am more confused now. I want to plan the rigging ahead of time, attach the appropriate blocks and connections to the correct places, prior to running thread all over.

 

I'm starting with the simple topgallant yard, by far the simplest, and I'm already confused. I'm showing portions of two rigging diagrams in McKay's book, which seems a good start:

 

 

 

Using the table in the book, 207 are the Lifts for the Main Topgallant Yard, and consist of 2 blocks and 4 thimbles (I assume single, and that quantities are each side, with the quantities of this Lift being 2). I believe there will be a single block where the lift attaches to the yard, and another attached to the mast, where the rope will then continue downward. I guess there would be a thimble where the rope attaches to the mast, then another connecting the block to the yard and a third connecting the second block to the mast; I have no idea where a fourth thimble would be. As to the rope going down, would it go to all the way down to belaying pins at the base of the main mast, or would it be connected somewhere between? The 2.5" rope is listed as 65 fathoms long, so probably at the deck?

 

In the same area in this diagram are item 213, called the Halyard. It is 2" rope 84 fathoms in length with 6 blocks! Each side! Well, that short piece of rope between the mast and the yard is no 84 fathoms long, so it must continue down through a block attached to the end of the spar, back toward the Top. But where would it go from there? Where are the other 5 blocks? Why isn't this line shown on the second diagram above? (And it's not shown at all on the model's plans. And also not at all on some apparently excellent models I've seen.) While at first they seem to do the same thing (hold the topgallant yard in place), I realize that the Halyard line does not actually hold the yard, as it (probably) goes through a block on the yard.

 

You can see my level of confusion here: with only these first 2 lines, I don't know how they attach or where they go, and sources for this information varies. And confusion compounds as I go lower on the main mast, with so many more lines, whose function and connection are even more confusing. I hate to leave my cross-section model at only the hull and decks, or with a bare main mast, but I've spent over a month researching and buying books and am getting nowhere.

[Mark P]

Good Evening RR;

 

I think that the best solution to your dilemma is to try and purchase copy of James Lees' book 'The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1625-1860. This describes the rigging of a variety of ship types through a long period, and goes into all the sort of detail which will answer your questions, and all the others which you haven't yet asked as well!

 

Copies can normally be found on Amazon, or try Bookfinder, which currently has them starting at £35, up to the best part of £200. If you are in the US, they are also available there. 

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[egkb]

Hi There .. It can look confusing for sure .. try this book (if you haven't already)  Longridge built a large model of the victory and this is the book he produced, I think many might consider it the Victory 'Bible' ..

 

All The Best

 

Eamonn

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anatomy-Nelsons-Ships-Nepean-Longridge/dp/1854861220/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+Anatomy+of+Nelson's+Ships&qid=1619382010&sr=8-1

Edited April 25, 2021 by egkb
Forgot to include link

[DelF]

I remember going through the same dilemma with the same kit. The kit rigging is necessarily simplistic, partly because the cross section isn't deep enough to contain all the rigging to the mainmast. For example there  is only room for three shrouds on each side whereas from memory I think there would have been at least 11 plus around 5 backstays on each side. I wasn't happy with that degree of paring down and in the end I decided to leave it out and just incorporate a stub mast. Probably not the feedback you wanted, but at least it shows you can get a half decent result from the pared down model:

 

If you really want to press ahead then the best source I know is The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships by Longridge which, despite the title, just covers (in great detail) his construction of a 1:48 scale model of Victory. Given the degree of standardisation in the Georgian navy it's well worth having as a great source of information about British warships of the period.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Derek

[rraisley]

8 minutes ago, DelF said:

If you really want to press ahead then the best source I know is The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships by Longridge which, despite the title, just covers (in great detail) his construction of a 1:48 scale model of Victory.

I have Longridge's book, and have removed the rigging diagrams for reference. They have yet another version of the above information (similar for Lifts, short Halyards, if indeed that is what they are stopping at the main topgallant yard. Again - added confusion.

 

34 minutes ago, Mark P said:

I think that the best solution to your dilemma is to try and purchase copy of James Lees' book 'The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1625-1860.

The cheapest I see it is $75. I just bought Wolfram zu Mondfeld's Historic Ship Models, and it has lots of great detail, but doesn't really answer a lot of my questions. Also bought Longridge's book as noted above, McGowan's HMS Victory, McKay's Victory book, etc. and am not getting far. Additional, conflicting yet incomplete information is not really helping.

[Ponto]

PM sent concerning The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships by Longridge.

[Ian_Grant]

As others have said, what you need to do is follow Longridge who is specific to Victory, instead of trying to cover all cases as in some other books.

 

The 213 in the first picture would appear to be a standing lift and is bogus. Forget about it. In the case of the topgallant lifts, the four thimbles and two blocks cover both sides. Each side has a thimble in a strop round the mast which holds the standing end of the lift. The lift runs through a block tied to the yard, then back up through a thimble seized between the 1st and 2nd topgallant shrouds, then down to the mast top where it belays round a deadeye. This is described by Longridge on pg 249. See also Fig 178 on the next page.

 

The topgallant "halyard" consists of a tye and the actual halyard. The tye clinches round the centre of the yard and runs through a sheave hole in the hounds of the topgallant mast to an 8" double block. The halliard consists of a whip rigged between this block and an 8" single block attached near the back of the mast top, with the fall belayed on the bitts abaft the mast. This is also described by Longridge pg 249.

 

Longridge provides a rope-by-rope description of each line on each yard complete with rope and block sizes. I can't emphasize enough that you cannot do better than follow him.

 

If you are not familiar with rigging in general, I recommend you obtain "Rigging Period Ship Models" by Petersson. This great book has almost no text, just line by line diagrams of each rigging component, one or two per page. Here is a sample page:

 

DelF makes a good point about the limited depth of the cross section. There are many lines (braces, bowlines) which you must omit  because they run to other masts.

 

Finally, concerning your statement:

 

"I have Longridge's book, and have removed the rigging diagrams for reference. They have yet another version of the above information (similar for Lifts, short Halyards, if indeed that is what they are stopping at the main topgallant yard. Again - added confusion."

 

I gather you are looking at the large "Plan 7 Running Rigging" foldout. Those lines running from near the topgallant hounds to more or less the centres of the topgallant yard are the two topgallant buntlines.

 

The large standing and running rigging diagrams, though impressive, are not that useful compared to the detailed descriptions in Chapters XV and XVI.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Ian_Grant

[popeye2sea]

Looking at your original post.  Line 213 looks to me to be a depiction of what to do with the studdingsail halyard if there are no sails. In any case the lead for the end after the jewel block at the yard arm is bogus.  That is the end that would be hitched around the studdingsail yard. At the mast head it would not be hitched around the mast. You would need another block to send the hauling end down towards the deck.

 

They have the whole thing backwards.

 

The second diagram is actually closer to the way it should be rigged.

 

Regards,

[rraisley]

7 hours ago, Ian_Grant said:

f you are not familiar with rigging in general, I recommend you obtain "Rigging Period Ship Models" by Petersson. This great book has almost no text, just line by line diagrams of each rigging component, one or two per page. Here is a sample page:

I just purchased an electronic Kindle copy of Petersson's book. I have also promised myself it is the last book I will buy in attempting to build this model.

 

When lines shown by authorities' drawings are "bogus", and when line descriptions here, and in the books, require a Google search by me for every other word (and conflict with other "authorities"), I think a visual representation which I can use while looking at diagrams, and fitting them to my situation, is best for me.

 

Thanks to everyone for your responses.

[allanyed]

Rick,  Peterson's book is based on one contemporary model of a specific ship/rate/era (36 gun frigate late 18th century) and will not always be accurate for Victory compared to other books.   Petersson's sketches are good and pretty easy to follow if you are building a fifth rate from that time frame. 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by allanyed

[rraisley]

3 hours ago, allanyed said:

Rick,  Peterson's book is based on one contemporary model of a specific ship/rate/era (36 gun frigate late 18th century) and will not always be accurate for Victory compared to other books.   Petersson's sketches are good and pretty easy to follow if you are building a fifth rate from that time frame.

So I see. There are a few pages that are helpful, and at least they usually show where the lines terminate.

[druxey]

While Petersson's book is very helpful, there are some details that are post 1780. He faithfully took a specific contemporary model as his example, but I believe that some of the rigging was replaced or augmented at some point. Martingales are definitely from after 1794 (Lees) and double ones from the post 1815 era.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  I just received a copy of 'Masting & Rigging the Clipper Ship & Ocean Carrier' by Harold Underhill (1969 reprint, hardbound) - a bargain from Abe's books at $25 ($45 on Amazon, higher prices seen on Ebay).  I bought it as a supplement to the Peterson book (and the Anderson book on an even earlier period) to see the evolution of rigging - and to use when I get to a clipper model.  Yes, Underhill's book deals with later period rigging, but I paged through the first half (a preface to a serious read) and could follow his explanations of masting, standing rigging and running rigging if sails are to be on a model.  I've struggled (and have made substantial progress delving here and there in our forum) to 'learn the ropes', and the Underhill book has 'turned on the light' so to speak in understanding many of the basics that are applicable (sometimes modified) to other time periods.

 

  Lifts, braces, sheets and halliards make more sense - as do buntlines, slab lines, clews and reef tackle.  There's a whole new language to learn, and one can then choose the level of detail to use in any desired application..  For instance - regarding 'serving'  some of the ropes used in standing rigging, the book mentions that 'no model maker who aims at first class results would think of omitting it on account of its tedious nature'.  Yet to be "totally accurate", one would then 'worm' the rope first (spiraling a narrow line in the direction of lay into the 'hollows' of properly spun rope - like what one might produce with the Syren Rope Rocket) to make the surface 'fair' (more flat along the length - then 'parcel' over that in the direction of lay with a narrow strip of material (gosh, like fine silk or perhaps 'Japan paper' or tea bag material for model making purposes) and THEN 'serve' the rope in the opposite direction with thin thread to wrap the whole business ... so who would see all the stuff under the serving?

 

 I'll choose to omit serving entirely in the scales I'll be modeling in (anywhere from 1:96 to 1:150), while those in in more demanding scales (around 1:50 ?) might consider modified serving.  Its entirely up to you, and what 'floats your boat'.  You can put on some sails, but don't have to include ALL of the running rigging ... unless you want to.  The idea is to enjoy you hobbies at whatever skill level you are comfortable in practicing.  A wise man said, "Do not compare yourself to others, for there will always be those greater or lesser than yourself."

 

  Fair weather,   Johnny

[allanyed]

Rick,

Where the lines terminate is always troublesome as there is virtually no contemporary information on this, at least that I could ever find, other than contemporary models.  From what I understand, this varied quite a bit from ship to ship, captain to captain.   Lees does show belaying points of several vessels and often describes this in the writing but otherwise I have not seen much for the 18th century or early 19th century that would apply to Victory.  This includes Petersson's book which, again, does not necessarily work for Victory but would probably be OK for  most fifth rates of the late 18th century.    

[Dr PR]

Rick,

 

I suggest you don't get too anal about the "correct" locations for tying off the rigging. There is a good chance that some things changed during the life of the ship.

 

I modeled a mid 20th century light cruiser that was in service for several decades and there were dozens of changes over the years. Some were simple, like the bosun wanting another cleat or bitt to tie to, or new antennas to improve reception. Others were large like adding new compartments on deck of adding new equipment. But in every case the changes were made to improve the performance of the ship. I doubt that this idea was new to the 20th century!

 

I would not be surprised to learn that 15th through 19th century ships had occasional changes to the rigging to make it "better" in the eyes of the current Captains. There are some recorded accounts where rigging and sails were changed because a "better" way was observed on another ship. Unless you have an accurate period rigging plan for a ship for the year you are modelling you will never know exactly how it was rigged.

 

There are a few simple rules of thumb for rigging that comes from some period books on rigging ships.

 

1. Standing rigging like stays form triangles with the mast and deck in order to support the masts. Forward stays fasten on or near the ship's center line on deck or to the bowsprit. After stays attach to the bulwarks or channels outboard the bulwarks.

 

2. Running rigging from the lower spars and sails leads to the forward most points on pin rails, fife rails and belaying points on deck, and the rigging from the highest points leads to the aft most belaying points. Rigging from near the center of yards or the mast leads down to points near the base of the mast (fife rails, ring bolts on deck, etc.) and rigging from the yard arms and outboard parts of sails leads down to points along bulwarks, pin rails or ring bolts on the deck near the bulwarks. Mast tackles usually lead outboard to channels or pin rails.

 

3. Lines should not cross or rub together. Each must lead free and clear down to the belaying point.

 

Since this is how ships have been rigged for centuries, if you follow these guides you will probability end up rigging the model almost exactly like the real thing.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Dr PR

[rraisley]

Peterson's book has the below illustration for the Main Lifts:

 

 

The enlarged view of the block(s) seems to show a single block attached to a larger block. But I see no reason at all for the larger block in the rigging.

 

Can someone tell me what it's for? What lines should go through it?

[rraisley]

Looks like the other blocks might be for the sheets & cluelines.

[popeye2sea]

That is a sheet and a lift block sistered together. The sheet block is the larger one with the ear. That ear is there so that the sheet will not jamb against the yard. The ear holds the block up off the yard.

 

Regards,

[rraisley]

2 hours ago, popeye2sea said:

That is a sheet and a lift block sistered together. The sheet block is the larger one with the ear. That ear is there so that the sheet will not jamb against the yard. The ear holds the block up off the yard.

Good to know, and makes sense. Thanks.