wipe-on poly or other final wood treatment education request

[catopower]

On 10/16/2021 at 11:05 AM, Roger Pellett said:

A somewhat cynical view of finishes:

 

Kits are expensive:   You are paying for someone else's  intellectual property, which you should, but you are also paying a lot for marketing, and distribution.  Each organization between you and the manufacturer needs to be paid.

 

To offset these marketing and distribution costs, many "Hobby Shop Grade Kits" do not use high grade materials, and many use misleading descriptions to promote sales.  For example, genuine American Black Walnut is an excellent wood for high end furniture, but not so good for ship models, and the stuff marketed as walnut by some kit manufacturers is worse.

 

Trying to find a finish to enhance the appearance of low quality wood is a waste of time.  Although there are finishes advertised to turn any wood into a work of art, these are aimed at the DIY and Craft markets. Many of these contain fillers intended to hide defects, thereby covering up detail that we want to show.

 

So, realizing that not everyone has unlimited resources to devote to this hobby what are the alternatives.

 

Deal directly with a kit manufacture with a reputation for furnishing high quality materials:  By buying directly from the manufacture your money goes into the kit.  You are not paying for distribution.  Links to these quality kit manufacturers can be found here on MSW.

 

 

So, we should let those "wasteful" importers know that they should just shut down and stop paying money for those Journal ads and sponsoring MSW then? 🤔

 

 

[Roger Pellett]

This forum is owned by the Nautical Research Guild.  The Guild’s motto is Advancing Ship Modeling Through Research.  As a long-standing (46 years) member of the Guild I completely endorse the Guild’s mission to encourage construction of quality models.

 

During the last few years, the quality of kits available to model builders has improved considerably.  Old line companies have redesigned their offerings and several new companies have emerged, and hopefully they will be supported by kit builders.  In my opinion, the commercial ship model business is like any other business. Competition improves the product.  Advertising (sponsorship) in this forum is no substitute for providing less than top quality.

 

Roger

 

 

[catopower]

Roger,

 

Your comments are well stated, but nobody is arguing against quality in ship model kits, your standing in the NRG, or advertising vs quality. What I wrote was simply a comment about your anti-importer remarks. As if importers provide nothing. 

 

But, you also have me thinking about your comment about ship model business being like any other business. It really isn't though, is it? Those who are really advancing kit design, I doubt they could make a living off of it. I think they're mostly subsidizing it because it's something they want to do. There just isn't the volume sales to do otherwise. They need a larger market, which is nearly impossible to do without advertising and all that you refer to as wasteful stuff. That's why they're often happy to have importers/distributors, because they get the products out in front of people and make larger quantity purchases, which gives the manufacturers a little needed cash infusion, so they can spend a little more time designing and less time shipping individual orders.

 

I'm just saying this because I'm always running across a lot of unnecessary bashing of kits, manufacturers, sellers. They have their place, even if it's not in your own workshop.  And, I don't say this, just because I do some occasional work for an importer and know many people in the industry – I actually believe it. 

 

Anyway, sorry to plug up the thread with this stuff, Kev! I'll go quietly... 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by catopower

[mtaylor]

Let's shut down the discussion of motivations, money, kit designers, etc. as it's really off topic.  

[No Idea]

On 10/14/2021 at 3:58 PM, Roger Pellett said:

I believe that most successful and experienced model ship builders have a mental picture of what they want their model to look like before they start building it.  Very much like an artist with a painting.  Finishing decisions are, therefore, made early in the game

 

Roger

 

Hi Roger I'm building a ship and I want a matt finish and I'm probably going to use shellac  - the question for me is when does a builder start applying the desired finish?

 

If the frames have been raised and faired does the builder apply a finish on these parts before the planking?  If so how does the glue do its job through the finish?

 

At what point in a build is the most desirable time to start applying a finish as some parts will be very difficult to get too even though there is so much more to do?

 

This is the most important question for me - as the finish itself is more a matter of personal choice.

[wefalck]

As the term implies, a 'finish' does not go onto parts (or rather their respective surface) onto which other parts will be attached, i.e. glued. Glues key better into the bare wood than onto varnished surfaces.

 

Unless something is visible, one does not normally apply any 'finish'.

 

Otherwise, there no general rules, it depends on the individual situation and convenience. Small parts may need to be painted/varnished before they are put into place because it is easier then and one doesn't smear the paint/varnish around and on other parts. 

[No Idea]

2 minutes ago, wefalck said:

As the term implies, a 'finish' does not go onto parts (or rather their respective surface) onto which other parts will be attached, i.e. glued. Glues key better into the bare wood than onto varnished surfaces.

 

Unless something is visible, one does not normally apply any 'finish'.

 

Otherwise, there no general rules, it depends on the individual situation and convenience. Small parts may need to be painted/varnished before they are put into place because it is easier then and one doesn't smear the paint/varnish around and on other parts. 

Hi wefalck - I agree but I think that this is a bit too simplistic when ship building.  

 

If you have finished the framing and also the inside planking on say a sectioned model it would make sense to apply a finish to the inside.  However this finish will inevitably run onto the outside of the frames and also if you want to finish a lower deck it is far too easy to apply your finish higher up the hull.  

 

The finish is also a preservative in my mind so I personally would like to apply it in places that are hidden too.  Glue also plays a part in this as it tends to show after the event.  I would also like to say that I have no idea what the best time to put a finish on is hence my post.  I was just interested what other builders do.

[wefalck]

In general, there is no 'finish' needed on wood surfaces that will not be visible once the model is completed. Preserve the wood from what ? It will be inside the model anyway.

 

Of course, if the framing, the ceiling or whatever will be visible, then on an 'artesanal' style model (i.e. not a 'realistic' rendering), you would apply varnish of some kind.

Edited December 11, 2021 by wefalck

[Gregory]

You don't think there is any need to minimize the effects of temperature and humidity?

[Keith Black]

 I'm going to seal my wood models. I worry most about the painted wood surfaces flaking because in time paint will flake. Varnish or poly will help minimize flaking. Artist and cabinet makers have been varnishing their works for hundreds of years. 

[wefalck]

55 minutes ago, Gregory said:

You don't think there is any need to minimize the effects of temperature and humidity?

Yes, keep your models in a proper atmosphere   If there are dramatic changes in temperature and humidity, over time no 'sealing' will help, it will just crack.

 

To my knowledge cabinetmakers did not varnish non-visible, massive parts. I case of panelling, the situation is different, as thin panels may warp, when only one side is treated - a mistake painters in the olds days sometimes made, when they painted on wood, but did not treat the back.

 

Paint will only flake, if not properly keyed into the wood, or when indeed the wood 'works' too much, but so would varnish. 

[Jaager]

2 hours ago, No Idea said:

apply it in places that are hidden too.  Glue also plays a part

I think it is in Underhill, that after planking the hull, he 'flooded the bilges with varnish'.   I am fairly sure that at the time it was written, varnish was generally taken to be essentially "boiled" linseed oil in mineral spirits.  It was probably a 'one off, seems like a good idea' choice.  Not at all an experiment with controls.   At the time, most of those writing how-to books were few in number, in isolation as far as consensus about what were optimal practices for stability over time.  The closest to that I have seen to objective procedure  are the USN museum standards for models that they would purchase.    I am not sure that any finish will be 100% successful at preventing the hull wood from equilibration with the temperature, O2, and water vapor of its environment. 

 

Clear coating a closed interior may or may not have any practical benefit.  But one definite negative would be if you coat a place where a subsequent wood to wood bond would be.  PVA bonds by intercalating its synthetic hyphae onto a microscopically rough surface and into micro pores that all wood has. Filling the pores and smoothing the surface with a clear finish, or sanding finer than 220 tends to defeat the bonding process.  

 

Coming at this from a POF - with no windows cut into the hull - point of view - if you intend to shellac an interior space before it is closed - I recommend  that any site where a PVA bond is yet to be  have a masking material there before the shellac is applied.  A really tedious and no fun at all sort of prep work and worse, clean up after.  Then, if your OCD about this is intense enough: what to do about the sides and bottoms of the deck beams and the underside of the deck planking between the beams?  It would take the skill of a fiber optic surgeon to get at it after assembly.  If done prior, this adds significant time and work to assembly.

 

To be logical,  worry about  failing due to environmental forces demands  another factor.  Certainly if it is a properly precise wood to wood bond that was clamped with enough pressure to yield a close surface to surface distance.  The polymer chain length should not too long, for a strong bond to form.    This other factor is what I call a belt and suspenders bond.   That is, the bond be both chemical and physical.  The physical part is a dowel at every bond.  The dowel, if visible, should have an in scale diameter.   Pulling bamboo thru a draw plate - especially in the high #70's range is difficult and the yield is low.   It is grad school level - 15% finish  - rather than med school level - >95% - if you get in you will finish unless you work at failing.

 

The bottom line - for a PVA wood to wood bond - always have it raw wood to raw wood.  If you use an agent that allows smooth surface to smooth surface adhesion ( epoxy (?) or CA ("the horror, the horror") )  the worry goes up stream.  The weak point is the clear finish to wood bond.  And no finish ever flakes off?

 

addendum:   In the shower just now, I remembered another option:

For a clear coat for a part of the hull that will never been seen again - give a thought to brushing lacquer.  

It is visibly thick, drys in 2 hours, has been around long enough to show that it lasts.

Too shiny to use where it can be seen.  It is out of scale thick, also.

No spray version - small enough to spray is small enough to breathe - any mitigation will never be as good as never making it airborne to begin with.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Jaager

[Gregory]

18 hours ago, Jaager said:

  I am not sure that any finish will be 100% successful at preventing the hull wood from equilibration with the temperature, O2, and water vapor of its environment. 

I'm just wondering if a uniform finish, inside or out, would provide a more uniform response to the elements, regardless of the severity of the environment..