Rigging a vintage schooner

[Elmina]

Hello. I am brand new to the site  

I have never built a ship model , however I have been a captain and boater for over 40 years . I have a love for the sea and collect nautical items  . 
I purchased a vintage model schooner / lead keel pond yacht 

The model is about 8 ‘ long . It is absolutely magnificent . It was heavily damaged from the rails up . That is to say the mast ,s  booms etc were broken and  many pieces missing . I have salvaged what I could , repaired the 2 main masts , and have started my long journey of rigging the ship . 
I looked at the boat for a year and finally agreed on a price from a nautical antique dealer. 
it is planted in my office and I am invested and determined  to rig it minus the canvas if that is possible. I am just starting this journey, learning terms and parts , attempting to figure out what variation of sails it had etc 

What I know about the ship . The name on the stern is Elmina / shooters island NY

the only info I have found online is one black and white photo from the mystic seaport . The description says Elmina 99’ schooner yacht built 1901 designed by A Carey Smith and built by Townsend and Downey shooters island NY .

the caption says the boat in the photo is running before the wind under gaff rig main and foresails and topsails, spinnaker and ballon jib 

the boat in the photo is a white hull. My model is a black hull. The bow sprit in the photo appears different than than the bow sprit on my model  so I don’t know if it is one in the same . Anyway I am starting this journey and hoping to get detailed plans of a similar ship models rigging . I would appreciate any advice I can get. 
my other challenge is the helm is missing. There is a threaded stem from the rudder that turns the rudder but no helm station or ships wheel . Thanks for looking and listening 

[yankee clipper]

Wow, Elmina this is going to get a lot of responses from the MSW gang. First I think it is beautiful just the way she sits, and the stand box is a work of art in itself. A model of this caliber requires restoration

and I know you will enjoy each and every hour. Best wishes to you, and I'll be watching so please keep us posted as to your progress.

Yankee Clipper

[Gregory]

What will you take for it?  😁

[Elmina]

30 minutes ago, yankee clipper said:

Wow, Elmina this is going to get a lot of responses from the MSW gang. First I think it is beautiful just the way she sits, and the stand box is a work of art in itself. A model of this caliber requires restoration

and I know you will enjoy each and every hour. Best wishes to you, and I'll be watching so please keep us posted as to your progress.

Yankee Clipper

Thanks for the encouragement Yankee clipper 

[Elmina]

8 minutes ago, Gregory said:

What will you take for it?  😁

Hey Gregory , sorry not for sale but thanks for asking.

[Keith Black]

 Elmina's caretaker, welcome to MSW. Wishing you the very best with your restoration efforts on such a beautiful ship. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Keith Black

[Jim Lad]

Hello Elmina, and a warm welcome to the forum from 'Down Under'.

 

If you simply Google 'schooner rigging plan' you'll come up with more drawings of schooner rigging than you can cope with.  If you want more detail, there's a great book by John Leather called 'The Gaff Rigged Handbook'.

 

John

[Elmina]

10 minutes ago, Jim Lad said:

Hello Elmina, and a warm welcome to the forum from 'Down Under'.

 

If you simply Google 'schooner rigging plan' you'll come up with more drawings of schooner rigging than you can cope with.  If you want more detail, there's a great book by John Leather called 'The Gaff Rigged Handbook'.

 

John

Thanks so much

[Elmina]

[Keith Black]

 I hope you'll start a restoration build log where we can follow along. It's not often we get to see work being done on an eight foot model. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Keith Black

[markjay]

Welcome, what a beauty!

[Dr PR]

There are several basic ways to rig a schooner, and many variations of each. Unless you can find a rigging plan (or lots of photos) of the Elmina you will have to pick a plan and go with it.

 

"The Global Schooner" by Karl Heinz Marquardt is the best reference I have found for schooners.

 

Howard Chapelle mentions the Elmina briefly in "The History of American Sailing Ships" (Bonanza Books, New York) and has a hull lines plan on page 337, but doesn't show the deck layout or rigging plan. Elmina was a schooner yacht that was used for racing. He has a lot of examples of the sail plans and some rigging for this type of schooner.

 

Chapelle's "The American Fishing Schooners" has a tremendous amount of details about schooners and schooner rigging.

 

Leather's "Gaff Rig Handbook" has  a lot of information about racing yachts.

 

Here are two extraordinary builds of large schooner models. Lots of very good ideas:

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19848-schooner-germania-nova-by-keithaug-scale-136-1908-2011/?do=findComment&comment=605204

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/12515-schooner-altair-by-keithaug-scale-132-1931-finished/?do=findComment&comment=378702

[Roger Pellett]

Much of the answer depends on what you want to do.

 

If you want to rig this as a display model, there is lots of Schooner rigging information available.  Your main job will be sorting out what is applicable depending on your boat’s age and place of build.

Sources that come to mind:

Howard Chapelle- American Fishing Schooners (Book) possibly not applicable to a yacht built at NY.

 

Drawings published by Model Shipways for New York Pilot Boat Phantom.

 

Eric Ronnberg’s Drawings of Boston Pilot Boat Hesper- see also his series of articles on the same subject published in the Nautical Research Journal; back articles available from NRG office.

 

The Gaff Rig (Book) by John Leather

 

Hand Reef and Steer (Book) by Tom Cunliffe.

 

I would be leery of using Global Schooner as a reference for small American built vessels.  The author’s focus is European.

 

Rigging the model, in this manner, however, does not “restore” the model since as a sailing model, her rigging would have been simpler and self tending.  Restoring the model to her original pond yacht configuration would be much more difficult.  If you want to do this, before doing anything else I would first make a sketch showing all holes and any attached hardware.  Also, take lots of photos showing her as found.

 

It certainly is a nice find.  

 

Roger

Edited April 20, 2022 by Roger Pellett

[Dave_E]

Welcome to the forum! Beautiful way to get into the hobby. As mentioned, please do start a build log so we can follow your progress (and you can get lots of help as needed/requested). 👍😀

[Roger Pellett]

Chapelle’s drawing of lines of Schooner Yacht Elmina.  As you can see, lines are completely different from your model.  I suspect that the builder of your model, who was obviously skilled, just added the name of a well known yacht of the day. This does not detract from the fact that it a nicely built model, but I personally would lean toward a simple pond yacht rig.

 

Roger

[allanyed]

I believe Roger is correct, your model is definitely not the 72 ton Elmina.   The Elmina and her sister, the 72 ton Muriel were racing yachts built in 1901 by Townsend & Downey.  There is quite a history of their races in the New York Times.

Allan

[Elmina]

19 hours ago, Dr PR said:

There are several basic ways to rig a schooner, and many variations of each. Unless you can find a rigging plan (or lots of photos) of the Elmina you will have to pick a plan and go with it.

 

"The Global Schooner" by Karl Heinz Marquardt is the best reference I have found for schooners.

 

Howard Chapelle mentions the Elmina briefly in "The History of American Sailing Ships" (Bonanza Books, New York) and has a hull lines plan on page 337, but doesn't show the deck layout or rigging plan. Elmina was a schooner yacht that was used for racing. He has a lot of examples of the sail plans and some rigging for this type of schooner.

 

Chapelle's "The American Fishing Schooners" has a tremendous amount of details about schooners and schooner rigging.

 

Leather's "Gaff Rig Handbook" has  a lot of information about racing yachts.

 

Here are two extraordinary builds of large schooner models. Lots of very good ideas:

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19848-schooner-germania-nova-by-keithaug-scale-136-1908-2011/?do=findComment&comment=605204

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/12515-schooner-altair-by-keithaug-scale-132-1931-finished/?do=findComment&comment=378702

Wow this is all great information 

thank you very much

[Keith Black]

 A couple of images of the Elmina. The eBay item would be well worth picking up. The second link supposedly shows the Elmina in the background but describes her as being 120 feet not 99 feet? 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174961721806

 

http://progress-is-fine.blogspot.com/2018/06/yachts-ingomar-and-elmina.html

Edited April 21, 2022 by Keith Black

[Elmina]

7 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Much of the answer depends on what you want to do.

 

If you want to rig this as a display model, there is lots of Schooner rigging information available.  Your main job will be sorting out what is applicable depending on your boat’s age and place of build.

Sources that come to mind:

Howard Chapelle- American Fishing Schooners (Book) possibly not applicable to a yacht built at NY.

 

Drawings published by Model Shipways for New York Pilot Boat Phantom.

 

Eric Ronnberg’s Drawings of Boston Pilot Boat Hesper- see also his series of articles on the same subject published in the Nautical Research Journal; back articles available from NRG office.

 

The Gaff Rig (Book) by John Leather

 

Hand Reef and Steer (Book) by Tom Cunliffe.

 

I would be leery of using Global Schooner as a reference for small American built vessels.  The author’s focus is European.

 

Rigging the model, in this manner, however, does not “restore” the model since as a sailing model, her rigging would have been simpler and self tending.  Restoring the model to her original pond yacht configuration would be much more difficult.  If you want to do this, before doing anything else I would first make a sketch showing all holes and any attached hardware.  Also, take lots of photos showing her as found.

 

It certainly is a nice find.  

 

Roger

Hi Roger  thank you. I have ordered a couple of the books already. I’m taking a crash course in terms , parts ,knots and rigging etc. I have several pieces of the original sails and several parts , so the puzzle may come together more clearly when I get the books in my hands . It was originally rigged with all the sails and I’m assuming it was a pond yacht because of the lead keel. But my intention is to just rig it for display / no sails . The only other research I will have to do is try to replicate the helm.  Thanks again

[Elmina]

On 4/19/2022 at 7:32 PM, Keith Black said:

 I hope you'll start a restoration build log where we can follow along. It's not often we get to see work being done on an eight foot model. 

I will look at how to start a blog. Thank you

[Elmina]

On 4/19/2022 at 7:32 PM, Keith Black said:

 I hope you'll start a restoration build log where we can follow along. It's not often we get to see work being done on an eight foot model. 

How exactly do I start a restoration build log ? Thank you 

[Keith Black]

 The model is 8 feet and the the Elmina was 99 feet. The scale is 1:12, one inch = one foot. A modeled 16 inch block or deadeye will be 1.33 inches. I don't know if Chuck would/could make line for that scale? 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Keith Black

[Keith Black]

 

 

 

[allanyed]

There may be some variation for a 1901 schooner, but this MIGHT act as a guide.  Working backwards, using ratios in Lees Masting and Rigging on page 164, for a 12 inch block (1" at scale) the diameter of the sheave hole was 1/8 the length of the shell, so the sheave hole would be about 0.125" (3.175mm)  The sheave was 1/16 less than the sheave hole (~0.118" - 3mm)  If that is the case, and the rope is as he describes at 1/10th the width of the sheave the rope would be  0.106" in diameter.   This is the largest rope Syren offers on the website so large rope will need to be made by Elmina or sourced elsewhere.

 

The blocks would likely be internally stropped and unfortunately Syren's blocks only go up to about 5/16" so Elmina may need to make his own blocks. over 5/16".  Making internally stropped blocks at this large scale is really as difficult as making those for smaller scales.

 

Ropes of Scale makes larger rope, but the larger rope is all cable laid so will not look right.

 

Allan

Edited April 21, 2022 by allanyed

[Elmina]

9 hours ago, Keith Black said:

 The model is 8 feet and the the Elmina was 99 feet. The scale is 1:12, one inch = one foot. A modeled 16 inch block or deadeye will be 1.33 inches. I don't know if Chuck would/could make line for that scale? 

Hello and thank you. It appears my model has the name Elmina on it but actually is not a model of the Elmina. So I really have no idea what scale this model is. I do however have many parts . Blocks , Deadeye’s, chain plates , lines etc. so I think my next move should be a good set of metric calipers to match parts etc. thank you 

[Keith Black]

 No doubt rigging this beast is going to be a challenge but well worth the effort in the end. One is able to get away with so must at smaller scales but at this scale any deviation from realism is going to stick out like a sore thumb. Allan, at this scale what wood would you recommend for making blocks? 

 

" It appears my model has the name Elmina on it but actually is not a model of the Elmina"

 

It maybe modeled after the Elmina from the deck up? I wish we had good deck photos and or drawings, would like to see the photo that came with the model. The hull maybe configured more for function (being a pond yacht) than the actual Elmina hull as the model was meant to operate in the water and to be seen from the waterline up? The transom doesn't seem correct but it could have been designed for the sole purpose of displaying the plaques? This is going to be a very interesting journey. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Keith Black

[Roger Pellett]

Keith,

 

I don’t think that this is the case.  If you look at Elmitra’s lines plan that I posted above, you will see that the shape of the deck of the model is completely different.  Furthermore, a high class racing yacht of 1901 would not have had the two large deckhouses that exist on the model.

 

if this were my model, I would make a careful inventory of all parts.  I would lay out a minimal rig associated with a free sailing model.  If additional blocks are needed, I would try to duplicate those from the model as closely as possible.  Purchased “kit” blocks will look out of place.  At the large scale involved, a few new blocks should not be difficult to make.  Rope- rather than worrying about scale rope I would try to duplicate to the extent possible that used to originally rig the model.  He can use the jib sheets for a sample.

 

I would describe the restored model as a “Schooner Rigged Pond Yacht c1901.

 

Roger

[Keith Black]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:50 PM, Roger Pellett said:

I don’t think that this is the case

 Thanks, Roger.

 

 Well, my mind is totally blown. Here's this well executed pond yacht built at 1:12 scale which obviously took lots of planning to build. Even the name plaque is expertly made which is usually a weakness. It's got tufted seating and the wood used for the decking and deckhouses is beautiful stuff. (Any guesses as to what species of wood that is?) To build an eight foot model one would think that the materials alone would have cost a small fortune. 

 

 So whoever built this grand pond yacht at great time and some expense then sticks the name Elmina on it (which evidently it holds no resemblance to) and then sails it in front of crowds of people to which any number of could have said "what were you thinking".  

 

 This mystery bothers me. It's like a little piece of sand is lodged in the folds of my brain and if not solved soon I might make a pearl. 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Keith Black

[Gregory]

Here are a couple of google Book references with photos.

Beautiful yacht, but the proportions do not look much like the model.

 

The American Almanac (?)

 

Forrest and Stream Magazine Aug 1902

[Elmina]

Attached here are some photos of my broken parts and pieces. 
it looks like the spreaders were tucked up under the mast extensions , then a wire cane down through them. It looks like the shrouds stoped at the spreaders. can’t wait to get my hands on a couple of the books