Harvey 1847 by Schooners - Artesania Latina - 1:50 - Baltimore Clipper

[Schooners]

 

 

This kit is over 35 years old, is no longer available, and deserves to be assembled.  This is my first ship kit--I have built some simpler scratch built ships, but figure a kit with detailed insturctions will help me develop experience with more complicated details such as the deck furnatire and rigging.

 

Artesania Latina's Harvey is a fictitious ship representiative of the Baltamore Clippers.  I have William L. Crothers' wonderful book, "The American-Built Clipper Ship" and love the sleek lines of these fast ships.

 

I started, of course, with assembling the Hull strcture and ran into problems right away.

 

The plywood used for the false keel and bulkheads is a 1/4" thick, but the slots used to slide the parts together were less than this; the bulkheads were an overly tight fit on the flase keel.  I ended up using a rubber mallet to pound the first one into place.  An assembly step requiring a hammer should have been a red flag, but I soldered on and forced the bulkhead into place.  This of course warped the keel out of the straight.  But, even though this was a test fit and no glue was used, I could not remove the bulkhead and ended up busting the keel in half.

 

 

I repaired the keel in an equally brutish manner, widened all of the slots with a dremel, and gave assembly of the hull another go.  This time I used a square to hold the bulkheads in position, and was pleased with the results.

 

[ccoyle]

I used to have a hand-me-down example of this kit. I was surprised at how large the finished model would be. The nice thing about Baltimore Clippers is that they are striking but not overly complex subjects. The AL kit can also be spruced up quite a bit if you have any inclination toward super-detailing, and, as you have discovered, there is ample resource material on the type out there. Plus, since "Harvey" is a representative model and not any actual historical vessel (as far as I know), you have latitude to modify the design and name it whatever you wish.

 

Enjoy!

[Schooners]

Before I publish an update on my progress, I need to ask a question.  My research on this type of ship shows that the deck planks were generally 6 inches wide, which at my scale is 3mm.  But the kit supplies .5mm X 5mm X 640mm Mukali strips for the deck planks.  This is too wide.  I really like the look of the Mukali wood is has a sheen to the grain reminiscent of some types of maple. I am not sure I can rip them down to 3mm wide as they are so thin, and if I do I won't have enough material.  The deck is about 80,000 sq. mm and the kit provides 100,000 sq mm of Mukali wood for this purpose, but if striped down to 3mm would only be 60,000 square mm.  Not enough.

So I am looking for recommendations. Just go with the 5mm? Use an alternative wood?  I don't think I can get Mukali veneer.  Strip the Mukali down and mix in some other wood?  Might look cool.

 

One problem with building such an old kit is that some of the parts are missing.  My kit no longer had the 1.5mm plywood false deck.  I bought some 1.5mm plywood on Amazon, then took measurements at the bulkheads and laid this into a CAD program.

Then I printed the pattern out, traced it onto the plywood and made the false deck.

Below I am gluing the false deck into place.

Next I used a compass to mark off how much of the bulkheads needed to be removed to properly shape the hull.  I used a little Dremel drum sander to remove the material.

I want the full planking to blend into the width of the keel as if there were a rabbet. The false keel is 1/4" thick as is the true keel.  So I needed to thin down the false keel so two layers of planking  on both sides result in the 1/4" thickness of the true keel.  I was not sure how to do this with a smooth taper and may have hacked the keel up too much.  We will see when the planking goes on.

And finally I have started laying down the first layer of planking.  I started with the sheer strake. I used water to soften the planks, clamped them down to the table to the desired shape and let them dry.  But when I pulled them up, they did not retain this shape and just sprung back to their original straightness.  I have some work to do on my bending technique, maybe I need to use heat like an iron. Fortunately the limewood used in the first layer is very pliable.

I started using Titebond Transparent white glue as I thought it would clean up easier, but it took too long to cure and was not that strong.  I switched to my go to wood glue, yellow Titebond II which cures quick and hard, but is so hard to sand its a mess if you do not clean it up as you go.  As I glue the strake into position I use a paper towel and a wet paint brush to get off as much excess glue up as I can.

 

[allanyed]

Schooner

 

Your methodology is spot on.  Totally agree with your choice of glue as well.   Marking out where to bevel the bulkheads is a great idea.  Holly is a great wood for decks.  It has the color of a holystoned deck and is readily available from the normal wood suppliers mentioned here at MSW.   

 

 As you are starting to plank the hull, do you plan to plank as the kit instructs or have you considered realistic looking planking instead?   If case you are not aware, there is a great Antscherl tutorial here at MSW and there is a four part Passaro video series on-line on proper planking.

 

Thanks for sharing your build with us.

 

Allan

[Oldsalt1950]

Schooner, you are off to a good albeit rocky start to your build. You had a few problems but worked them out in quick order. We all ran into problems on our first kit build, it is all part of the learning curve. You will find as you progress through the build that some items will need to be worked out of order, so read ahead in the instructions to see what fits your building style. Read through some of the other Baltimore clipper logs here for help and inspiration, there are a number of different names but all are based on the clipper hull design.

[Schooners]

Allan,

I bought some white holly for my deck and will make the deck planks closer to scale than the strips that came with the kit.  (I ended up spending $60 once tax and shipping was included) My plan for the hull is to plank the model in two layers per the instructions in the kit. I am not bold enough yet to deviate significantly from the plans.  The second layer will be the mahogany supplied in the kit, then I will paint the hull black (lamp black 🙂) above the water line and leave the mahogany bare below the waterline.   I am using the first layer of planking as a learning experience, experimenting with marking out the plank locations, bending planks, thinning them, pinning them and placing stealers.

I am now comfortable with bending the planks, but these limewood planks are easy to bend and are probably not representative of a true model plank I bet.  I wet and then clamp them to a flat piece of plywood (my bending station 😁) and let them dry in the sun.

I take back what I said about not deviating from the plans.  There are a couple of  "Latrine Heads" near the bow, they look like big out houses standing up on the deck.  I have not been able to find any reference to these in my reading, I think they look out of place, and I will do away with them.  Usually the "seats of ease" were place up on the level of the beakhead deck grating, outside the hull, and were basically wide planks with open holes in them.  I guess the term "the head" was derived from the fact that this area was between the headboards.

Below are some pictures of my planking efforts highlighting the stealers.

I know I am not being very efficient in my planking.  I form and install a single strake, then let it dry.  I assume a more experienced modeler would do multiple strakes at a time.

[Schooners]

I have finished planking the first layer of the hull.  Below are a few pictures of the hull after sanding.

And then a couple of pictures after some wood filler and further sanding.

 

I think I have a good base now for the final layer of hull planking, but first.....

The instructions say the deck planking is up next.  I have received my white holly for the deck planks.  I plan to run the waterway and margin planks around the periphery of the deck and joggle the deck planks into them.  I created a CAD model of the deck because I had to make my own false deck, I think I will use this to plan my deck out on the computer.  I have a bit of studying to do before I glue the next parts together.

[Oldsalt1950]

Looks real sharp. Hull profile is very nice. Good call on eliminating the two "outhouses" . 

[Dr PR]

I'm not sure it is a "good call" but it certainly is Schooner's choice. These large latrines are shown on a number of plans for topsail schooners of the mid 1800s. The revenue cutter Joe Lane (1851) is a good example (Howard Chapelle, "The History of American Sailing Ships," Bonanza Books, New York, 1935, Plate VIII between pages 205-206).  Chapelle's plan is taken from Coast Guard drawings, and the hull looks very much like your model of the Harvey.

 

Joe Lane was 100 feet long between the perpendiculars, and that would make a 1:50 model about two feet long at the water line.

 

I have also seen these privies placed at the stern. When they stopped building heads on ships there were no longer "heads" for the crews. They had to have something so these latrines or outhouses appeared on some ships. I have photos of a late 1800s schooner Wawona that had a fore deck above the windlass, and it had seats of ease along the bulwark under this fore deck. There are a lot of drawings of these vessels that do not have these privies. I suspect that smaller vessels just had buckets for crew use, but I do not have a reference for that. So you can do pretty much whatever you want.

 

For further discussion of schooner heads  see this thread:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/29060-schooner-heads-1700s-through-1800s/?do=findComment&comment=829120

 

As for the 5 mm planking (9.8 inches at 1:50) I faced the same problem on my 1:48 Baltimore clipper. Some vessels did use pretty wide deck planks, but 10 inches does seem a bit large. I decided to use the 5 mm planking and it looks pretty good. Here are links to what I experimented with and ended up doing:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=602855

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=603771

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=605072

 

Since you are making a mid-1800s model you can realistically use the nibbing method I used. This came into use about 1830-1840 and was still in use more than a century and a half later. Before that planking (deck and hull) was often "hooked" and that is much more difficult to implement.

[allanyed]

On 6/12/2022 at 12:30 PM, Schooners said:

I am now comfortable with bending the planks, but these limewood planks are easy to bend and are probably not representative of a true model plank I bet.  I wet and then clamp them to a flat piece of plywood (my bending station 😁) and let them dry in the sun.

This plank looks spot on!  Drying in the sun or however will work, but an inexpensive hot air gun from your local hardware store is a great way to dry them. 

Allan

[Schooners]

I now have found reference to the "water closets" that are prominent near the bow of Harvey. On the "Witch of the Wave" there is a water closet in the after end of each wing formed at the rear side of the open forecastle.

 

Now I am on the fence, but at least I have historical presedence. They are pretty prominent, the first thing that draws my eye.  Maybe just one? and call it a bosen's locker? 

 

Adventures in making wooden strips.  I have spent the last couple of days experimenting with techniques to make wooden strips.  I want to make scale decking from white holly, but have been struggling.  I am also trying to minimize waste.  My band saw does not make clean cuts, my little 4" blade Dremel table saw is not powerful enough to cut through very thick pieces of the Holly, it is quite hard.  I ended up using my big cabinet table saw with a fine tooth carbide blade to cut the thin strips-the blade is about the same width as the thickness of my strips, that is, I am wasting 50% of my holly. Then I used a straight edge and a razor blade to cut the strips to width.  This does not work that great--it is hard to get a straight cut, the hard wood required multiple swipes with the blade and the blade dulls quick.  Besides it takes for ever. I can use the little Dremel table saw to make the final cut to width, but I am already turning too much of the wood into saw dust.

My deck is 6 inches wide and 24 inches long, using a deck plank width of .12" ( 1/50 scale of a 6 inch wide plank)  I will end up needing over 1000 inches of deck planking.  What have I gotten myself into???

In the picture below, after a days work, I ended up with two 12" deck planks, 98 more to go.

Phil,  you are right your ship looks great with the 5mm wide deck planks, this is still only 10" wide, which is reasonable.  I have read in one source the baltimore clippers deck planks are 6 inches wide, but I have seen 8 and 10 inches referenced elsewhere for other types of ships.  I beleive I am over thinking this issue and need to just build to the plans and get on with it.

 

 

[Schooners]

Deck Planking

 

This is a quick update on my progress--I have been working on the deck planking.  I am using the planks that came with the kit, 5mm wide and white holly for the margin planks.  It's been fun practicing hook scarf joints and nibbling the deck planks.  I kind of messed up my margin planks when I used my scrapper to flatten them with the regular deck planks; I took off too much in places and need to perform some rework.  The white holly is a joy to work with, easy to cut to any shape, does not splinter and has very fine grain with no fuzziness. 

 

 

There is one thing that I do not understand about deck planking.  I followed the standard decking rules (I think), three planks between adjacent butts on a beam, joggle if the snipe is more than twice the width of the plank, the 1,2,4,3 butt pattern.  But if I follow these rules uniformly across the deck, the pattern is not mirrored across the king plank.  And therefore the nibbling in the margin planks on each side are not mirror images of each other.  I thought they were supposed to be.  Are the deck patterns supposed to be mirrored across the king plank?  I know the king plank is supposed to be wider than the standard planks, but then you would have adjacent butt joints across the king plank.  I am not going to make any changes to this model, but I would like to understand this for the next time.  Thanks.

 

[Gregory]

 

Do you have a close-up of this area.  I would like to see if I can sort out your mirroring problem..

[Schooners]

Is this better?

 

Thanks

 

[Gregory]

let me see what I can see

 

[Gregory]

Without anything else to go on,  you lost your symmetry somewhere..

 

 

 

So, you lost your mirror image..

 

This has happened to me before.

Could be a flaw in the kit design..

 

Something to keep in mind next build..  I don't think it is a big detractor in an otherwise good build so far..

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Gregory

[Gregory]

P.S

 

In the future, you might consider not following through with a butt joint when it involves a very short piece of blank.

 

[Oldsalt1950]

The issue started with the planks either side of the king plank. The two planks are not identical for where the butts are cut.

[Dr PR]

The symmetry difference started with the first planks outboard the king plank. On the port side the first butt joint is one "step" from the bow, and on the starboard side it is two "steps" from the bow. Therefore, if you follow the 1 in 4 stepping there can be no symmetry. The planks on both sides must be laid out the same with respect to the king plank if you want to have symmetrical planking. The king plank does not fit into the 1 in 4 plan.

 

For what it is worth, not all ships with wooden decks had a "king plank." In the Cleveland class cruisers of WWII (that I am very familiar with) there was a seam between planks on the center line. I have no idea when the change from king plank to centerline seam started. But many modern boats have a king plank.

 

As far as nibbing is concerned there seems to be two slightly different schemes. In both cases the purpose is to avoid angles at the ends of planks less than 45 degrees (no very sharp points that are susceptible to rot and tend to catch on ropes). Sometimes the width of the nib is 1/2 the plank width (again in the Clevelands) and sometimes it is 1/3 the plank width. Some people cut the nib perpendicular to the length of the plank and some seem to cut it perpendicular to the edge of the margin board (the waterway plank).

 

Generally the planks were a standard length when delivered to the shipyard building site. But this might not be the length necessary to fit exactly between frames/deck beams. The butt ends of planks were cut to the centerline of a deck beam or frame. Any excess length was trimmed off. The first planks outboard the king plank would be nibbed into the margin/waterway plank and cut to fit the frame/deck beam nearest to the end of the plank. The second plank outboard would be placed so the aft end was one "step" (frame/deck beam) aft the end of the first plank, and so on. So there will be no short planks at the bow. The planking continues aft in this manner to the stern. There the planks are nibbed at the closest frame/deck beam or cut off at the stern waterway/margin plank.

 

You should never have tiny sections of planking filling the gap between a nib and the waterway plank. Never!

 

I hope this helps.

[Schooners]

Thanks guys this helps alot.  I think what I am hearing is that you make the planks symetrical across the king plank.  So at the king plank you break the rule that adjacent butts at a deck beam must have three planks between them, because to be symetrical you must have a butt on both sides of the king plank to maintain the mirror image.

 

Also I need to rethink the order of operations when planking.  I cut all my deck planks to the same length, marked the caulking on the sides, then laid all of the planking down from midships.  The nibbling in the margin planks were done after all the planking was down so the deck planking did not meet them in a preplaned pattern.  I like Phil's suggestion of starting at the bow and at the king plank so there are no short planks there.  I would think the nib cuts would need to be perpendicular to the length of the plank as you want them to terminate parallel to the deck beam (minor point I guess).

 

Lesson learned, thanks

 

 

[Schooners]

 

Deck is about complete after driving abunch of trennels. I am having boat loads of fun! 😁

 

 

At first I was drilling the holes, lining them up by eye.  But I noticed that they were wondering a bit.  So I decided to use a piece of masking tape to help keep the trunnels in line.  I noticed my plank butts were not perfectly in line across the deck either.  This is more noticalbe now that the trennels are in.

Still learning a lot.

 

 

[Schooners]

I have varnished the deck.  The bulwarks are installed and planked.  I have started planking the hull at both the garboard strake and at the bulwarks.  The thin walnut strips that are supplied for the 2nd layer hull planking are tricky to use.  I tried wetting them, but getting them to bend is very hard, but I found that if I  plank in smaller strips bending is less of an issue.  Also wetting them dilutes the glue and they do not stick very well.   But if I apply the strips dry, they are so thin that when I apply the glue, the under side of the plank swells and I end up with curved board.  I can sand them smooth, but I worry that they are so thin I might sand through.  Soooo, I have found a technique that is working well for me.  I wet the Outside of the plank with water, then apply glue to the Inside of the plank and apply it.  This allows the plank to swell evenly and the glue adheres well.

 

I also have stained the first hull layer under the walnut strips.  the white wood underneath can show through if the planks are not absoluetly perfectly butted against each other.  The dark stain allows the planking to be more forgiving in this regard. 

 

 

All for now................................................

 

 

[Schooners]

I continue working on planking the hull, the second side is going much smoother than the first side.  They say you are supposed to plank both sides at the same time, plank for plank.  I did this for my first layer of hull planking to insure there were no offset forces placed on the structure, but I don’t think it matters with this second layer as the structure is very solid and these strips are so thin as to not impart any force of significance. 

I am finding that the key to get these really thin walnut strips to lay down flat is to use lots and lots of clamps.  My clamps are made from a small strip of wood 1.5mm X 5mm with a .020″ hole drilled for a sewing pin.  I then use strips of an old inner tube folded several times and run through the pin to provide the clamping force.  I push the pin into the wood with a pair of pliers, then slide the rubber down against the wood strip.  They are cheap and easy to make, so I can have lots of them.

You can see that I have used filler to get a nice shape in the first layer of hull planking, and also stain to hid the cracks between the planks. I use the transparent Titebond glue.

The other side is planked.

[deckdog]

Good day.

I am looking at building a model of the American Privateer Young Teazer. The ship was a topsail schooner of 60 ft in length.  So I am looking at a Baltimore clipper model that can possibly be modified to represent this ship.

The actual ship was blown up by her captain to avoid capture, offshore of where I am living, in Chester, Nova Scotia. 

What scale length is the Harvey model? I am thinking I would have to alter the scale, like higher bulwark, larger deadeyes, larger cannons, etc, to change a 90 to 120 ft Baltimore clipper to represent a 60 ft topsail schooner

[Schooners]

Good day,

This kit is 1:50 scale,   it is 25" long as in the pictures above, just the hull. and 6 3/4" widest point abeam.  The problem with the kit I am building is that it is no longer made and has not been for at least a couple of decades.  You may be able to find a used one, I don't know. Model Shipways makes a kit for the Pride of Baltimore at 1:64 scale.  

 

Are you lookin for a kit to start with? or building from scratch.  Good Luck.

[Schooners]

Harvey Baltimore Clipper – Bulwarks

I am wrapping up the hull planking and am happy with my final side.  I was able to plank the entire side with only two stealers and these were required at the stern. 

I hope I don’t forget the little tricks I learned here and there.  I did sand the hull smooth, but sanded through in a few places and I have not decided whether

I should attempt a repair or not.  The area around the repair will probably get damaged during the repair of a strake and I don’t want it to end up looking worse.

I am also trying to decide whether I should stain the stem/keel/stern members a darker walnut to match the hull planking.

Oh, and one MAJOR lesson learned.  Don’t use water to wipe off the saw dust on the hull when using this very thin veneer planking. 

Even a little water will soften the PVA glue and the planks will lift and warp.  The glassy parts that you see on the hull are areas that

I applied more glue in an attempt to reattach/flatten planks that lifted after a cursory wipe with a wet rag.  Ughh.

I also am getting much better at wielding the exacto knife.  the first couple of gun ports I cut out from the gunnels were real hack jobs,

but the last ones I cut were very precise and square (I used a square and a reverse tooth fret saw to good effect).  

Edited July 16, 2022 by Schooners

[Dr PR]

deckdog,

 

Almost all topsail schooners have the same proportions of hull shape, beam, length, etc. However, topsail schooners with square sails on the foremast had the widest part of the beam more forward (closer to the fore mast) than pure fore-and-aft rigged schooners. This increased buoyancy forward under the heavier fore mast.

 

The major difference in hulls seems to be the deadrise - the angle between horizontal and the hull surface transversely (side to side). Cargo vessels had a shallow angle giving them a more "U" shaped fuller midships section to increase cargo space. But vessels built for speed, such as slavers, privateers and blockade runners, had a pronounced "V" shape cross section below the waterline. This produced less drag and that increased speed.

 

The proportions for masts and spars were also about the same for a given nation, but American Baltimore clippers of the late 1700s and early 1800s typically had taller masts and larger sail area than their British counterparts. The fore masts were also thicker than the main masts on topsail schooners. However, I think it is a safe bet that no two ships were alike, at least in the Americas, so you have a lot of leeway.

 

You are right about having to rescale deck furnishings and cannons if you are modifying a kit designed for a larger scale. But many kits are assembled with whatever parts the manufacturer had on hand, and often things like cannons and anchors were way out of scale anyway.

[Frank Nichols]

Really nice work, I also like the hull work - the contour appears to be very smooth and nicely curved. I am looking forward to seeing your deck work.

I am also doing a "Harvey" but mine is much smaller (1:96) and a cheap Chinese kit, for my first build.

[allanyed]

On 6/23/2022 at 11:01 AM, Schooners said:

So at the king plank you break the rule that adjacent butts at a deck beam must have three planks between them, because to be symetrical you must have a butt on both sides of the king plank to maintain the mirror image.

For the future, consider that there was no rule that the butts were to be symmetrical on each side of the king plank.   Planking was laid in either four butt and three butt shifts for the decks to assure the planking did all start or end on the same beams. There are diagrams showing this on page 58 in Goodwin's The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War 1650-1850.   Perhaps the American Navy did it differently, but for the British, the decks that were open to the elements were laid out in the four butt shift system, not the three butt system.  

 

Allan

[Schooners]

 

I am using the mill to drill the holes for the masts,  I am striving to get no tilt side to side and 10 degrees rake.  The second hole I drilled first with a smaller pilot drill and this worked better.

I turned a couple of small brass pulleys for the Davits on the lathe.

I need to install the rudder and then varnish the entire hull.  Then I will move on to the deck furniture.  I'll probably make the mounting pillars and mount the ship to a temporary stand to make it easier to work on.  

 

Below is my current reading list.  I am on a War of 1812 kick.