To Trenail or to not Trenail?

[Spaceman]

I'm in a dilemma as to whether to trenail my Agamemnon (Caldercraft/Jokita) or not.  There are a lot of posts on this group about how to do it, techniques etc and some great build logs - most of whom do seem to trenail their decks.  On top of this there are posts suggesting trenails should be practically invisible anyway on a freshly laid deck and not as obvious as in many builds.  

I live about 30mins away from a trip to HMS Victory which is obviously a very useful source.  But even that does not helps seen in these pics!  On the quarter deck (which is not original) the trenailing blends in almost perfectly with the decking and is almost invisible.  Despite not being original this was replaced in 1922-9 with teak.  So only about 100 years old !!!  The planking secured with brass screws and the holed plugged with 1 1/4" Dowel (ref HMS Victory Building, Restoration & Repair-A Bugler) On the Lower Deck, which is believed to be the original oak decking, the trenailing is very obvious and showing caulking.   

In discussing the middle gun deck (predominately non-original fir but some original oak) Bugler comments "Where appearance was not very important, for example, on the lower gun deck, it was usual to drive the spikes so that the heads were just below the surface of the deck. Dowels were not fitted but the recesses ... were often filled with pitch when the decks were caulked and payed".  This is clearly what is visible on the lower deck but on the original 'visible decks' would a less visible method have been employed as in the replacements?

 

I'll be very interested in opinions and research from other members while I ponder my dilemma but I suspect it is going to be a matter of personal choice.

 

Malcolm 

  

 

[druxey]

Traditionally decks were nailed and the heads countersunk. The hole above was filled with a diamond shaped or round wood plug, grain running the same way as the planking. As a result it is not very visible. Side and bottom planking treenails are far more obvious. My personal preference is no treenails in deck planks, although many models have them.

[Retired guy]

Hi Malcolm,

Use to live 35 mins away in Poole before coming to Canada, and have been on the Victory many times and would agree about no treenails in deck, all you see is the plug which is made from the same wood as deck so in 1/72 scale you would have to have a .017" or #78 or #77 drill bit but as you say its the choice of the builder. 

 

REgards

Richard

[Spaceman]

Druxey and Retired guy many thanks for your quick responses.  There is a great picture in Bugler of the Diamond plugs (Plate 37) - I don't really want to copy & display here as there may be copyright infringements - but this shows both the plugs and a couple missing in both Oak & Fir planking as described by Druxey.  I'll have to make a trip and try to find this area of planking on the middle gun deck and see how it looks in real life.  In the plate it sits somewhat in the middle of my two examples.  Nothing like as obvious as the caulked lower deck but also not as seamless as the 'modern' refit on the quarter deck which is probably in parts due to enhancements in tools as well as being different timber.  

 

Regards

 

Malcolm

[dvm27]

Personal preference is key here Malcolm but to me a well tunneled deck or hull does not look like treenails were used until you get very, very close and then they are only faintly visible. It should be like "why did I go through all that effort as you can barely see them"? But they are there and you know it.

[Retired guy]

1 hour ago, Spaceman said:

Druxey and Retired guy many thanks for your quick responses.  There is a great picture in Bugler of the Diamond plugs (Plate 37) - I don't really want to copy & display here as there may be copyright infringements - but this shows both the plugs and a couple missing in both Oak & Fir planking as described by Druxey.  I'll have to make a trip and try to find this area of planking on the middle gun deck and see how it looks in real life.  In the plate it sits somewhat in the middle of my two examples.  Nothing like as obvious as the caulked lower deck but also not as seamless as the 'modern' refit on the quarter deck which is probably in parts due to enhancements in tools as well as being different timber.  

 

Regards

 

Malcolm

Do have the Bugler book and all the drawings and have seen that diamond shape in it, if you do find it on the deck try and take a good picture 👍

 

Regards

Richard

[Spaceman]

Thanks all.  I'm decided.  No Trenails it is.

Richard, I'll try and get that photo at the next opportunity.

Thanks all for your comments and expertise.

 

Malcolm 

[Spaceman]

Finally managed to get down to HMS Victory this week.    Huge renovation underway making it quite a sorry sight at the moment but obviously for the best in the long term.  

I had a good look for that Middle Deck planing but to no avail.  I badgered a couple of the volunteers and guides.  The visible parts of the middle deck are all clearly modern and very neatly trenailed.

 

 

The Wardroom is not currently accessible and the planing is under covers.  I suspect this is where the sample is thats shown in Bugler as it would be in the more visible and less accessed areas.    

 

Notable differenced in the decking throughout the ship.  From the Lower deck (with the most original planking and very 'functional' filling of the trenail holes, through the middle & upper gunlocks to the poop which is neat enough to grace the Admiral's living room.  

 

  

 

The ship itself has mainmast removed and only the lower sections of the fore & mizzen (all Aluminium reproductions anyway) 

The midships is entirely covered in scaffolding and covered.  They are removing and replacing the outer planking.  Apparently this was replaced in the 1960's with a sandwich of Iroko and teak.  Both hardwoods but the conditions and constant damp have caused the Iroko to disintegrate and the whole was in danger of falling off.  I am told this is being replaced with Oak and they are tapering the planks in the way it was originally.

 

Some photos below of 'bits we don't normally get to see' which may be of interest to members.

 

  

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Spaceman
typo

[Dziadeczek]

This is a brand new deck (replacement) on the "Star of India" in San Diego. You can barely see treenails there, but they can be seen, nevertheless, if you look carefully.

[hollowneck]

Here is another set of visual references to consider. These photos are of the 2014 recreation of the French frigate Hermione, available on the the ship's website: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_frigate_Hermione_(2014)

 

With the first two photos, the holes for fastening the hull planking are quite evident at this stage of the ship's construction. The second of these two photos shows some of the holes filled with what are presumably lag bolts (some with washers). I'm surmising that these very visible holes were finally "capped" with wooden plugs and as such, the execution is a thoroughly modern invention/solution; in the earlier Age of Sail, these fastening holes would be filled with treenails (and plugs) made from wood - regardless of the ship's country of origin (as mentioned earlier in this thread). 

 

The second set of photos of the completed ship show nearly the entire vessel painted and thus, no immediately visible indications of how any of the superstructure was held together.

I have not been on deck of this ship so I don't know how the deck fastening was handled; presumably, it was done with "treenailing" but not necessarily with the same methods employed in the 17th century.

 

Indicating this level of detail with one's model is a matter of choice first, and second  - if even depicted - should be reasonably scale-accurate. I've seen some models of the era where the hulls appear to have the "measles"- clearly an unnecessary visual distraction (too much of a contrast in wood coloration); the same holds for deck planking. At smaller scales for most ship modelers (@ 1/72 or smaller), I would not recommend trying to simulate these details, whether hull or deck. Attempting to create realistic fidelity can result in wholly unnecessary distraction. In 1:48 and larger scales, it's a whole different ballgame.

 

My personal preference (at 1:64 scale) is to subtly indicate both these fastening conventions on the hull and deck when and where bare wood is exposed (sans paint).

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by hollowneck
grammar

[EYWKPS83]

7 hours ago, Dziadeczek said:

This is a brand new deck (replacement) on the "Star of India" in San Diego. You can barely see treenails there, but they can be seen, nevertheless, if you look carefully.

 

7 hours ago, hollowneck said:

Here is another set of visual references to consider. These photos are of the 2014 recreation of the French frigate Hermione, available on the the ship's website: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_frigate_Hermione_(2014)

 

With the first two photos, the holes for fastening the hull planking are quite evident at this stage of the ship's construction. The second of these two photos shows some of the holes filled with what are presumably lag bolts (some with washers). I'm surmising that these very visible holes were finally "capped" with wooden plugs and as such, the execution is a thoroughly modern invention/solution; in the earlier Age of Sail, these fastening holes would be filled with treenails (and plugs) made from wood - regardless of the ship's country of origin (as mentioned earlier in this thread). 

 

The second set of photos of the completed ship show nearly the entire vessel painted and thus, no immediately visible indications of how any of the superstructure was held together.

I have not been on deck of this ship so I don't know how the deck fastening was handled; presumably, it was done with "treenailing" but not necessarily with the same methods employed in the 17th century.

 

Indicating this level of detail with one's model is a matter of choice first, and second  - if even depicted - should be reasonably scale-accurate. I've seen some models of the era where the hulls appear to have the "measles"- clearly an unnecessary visual distraction (too much of a contrast in wood coloration); the same holds for deck planking. At smaller scales for most ship modelers (@ 1/72 or smaller), I would not recommend trying to simulate these details, whether hull or deck. Attempting to create realistic fidelity can result in wholly unnecessary distraction. In 1:48 and larger scales, it's a whole different ballgame.

 

My personal preference (at 1:64 scale) is to subtly indicate both these fastening conventions on the hull and deck when and where bare wood is exposed (sans paint).

 

My take-aways from these images: 

1. If the build is supposed to represent an older ship that's been in service, showing trenails might be appropriate. Otherwise, for a build representing a ship out of the shipyard, you wouldn't see them at most scales.

2. I'd be curious as to the wood used for the re-planking of the Star of India's deck. Some kind of cedar, redwood, or cypress, perhaps? The color of each plank varies across the plank. I suspect if you're mimicking other woods, the whole plank would be the same color, though it might vary from plank to plank. A "good to know" for my next (first) build (which will be Bluejacket's We're Here--as a lifelong fan of Captains Courageous...).

 

 

 

[JerryC]

Personally, I like treenails. I have a set of vanda lay treenail making tools and have spent many hours making sawdust while producing a bunch of treenails. I used a bunch on the hull planking of the mantua Trotamares, which I then painted. Can’t see them, but I know they are there.

Edited March 24, 2023 by JerryC
Spelling

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, EYWKPS83 said:

I'd be curious as to the wood used for the re-planking of the Star of India's deck. Some kind of cedar, redwood, or cypress, perhaps? The color of each plank varies across the plank. I suspect if you're mimicking other woods, the whole plank would be the same color, though it might vary from plank to plank.

It appears to be Douglas fir (AKA "Oregon pine") as one might expect, given this species' local availability. (It's definitely not redwood, which is not suitable for decking or any other exposed wood surface which may encounter bare feet. It's splinters fester almost immediately.)

 

I appears from the pictures above, and the notation that it's a new deck, the unnatural coloration of what should be quarter-sawn stock appears to be the result of having been recently sanded level and not yet refinished. They probably applied sealer for the purpose of caulking the seams and stopping them with seam compound. The procedure then would be to scrape and sand the cured seam compound fair to the deck which generally requires a thorough sanding with a belt or floor sander. The color "figuring" on the deck is merely the pattern of high points sanded fair, which removed sealer in those areas. After that, and when the sawdust was vacuumed up, (which is the point where the photos above appear to be taken,) a final coat of sealer could be applied, or not, depending upon the wishes of the owners.

[allanyed]

8 hours ago, EYWKPS83 said:

My take-aways from these images: 

1. If the build is supposed to represent an older ship that's been in service, showing trenails might be appropriate. Otherwise, for a build representing a ship out of the shipyard, you wouldn't see them at most scales.

2. I'd be curious as to the wood used for the re-planking of the Star of India's deck. Some kind of cedar, redwood, or cypress, perhaps? The color of each plank varies across the plank. I suspect if you're mimicking other woods, the whole plank would be the same color, though it might vary from plank to plank. A "good to know" for my next (first) build (which will be Bluejacket's We're Here--as a lifelong fan of Captains Courageous...).

Ey 

Looks like that is your first post, so welcome to MSW!!

Allan

[Spaceman]

Some really good points here, I think the consensus is - if you are going to show Trenails make it subtle and realistic and not a feature. 

I've got a trip planned to France later this year and L'Hermione is on the agenda.  🙂

 

Thanks for all the responses on this.