72Nova Posted October 25, 2022 Author Share #31 Posted October 25, 2022 Ian the Revell kit would've been by far the best choice, all the mods I've done so far are included in the newer Revell version but trying to find is another matter, I think there's just one on ebay for like $125 plus shipping. As always thanks for the likes/compliments. Michael D. Jeff T, Ian_Grant, Old Collingwood and 2 others 4 1 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted October 27, 2022 Author Share #32 Posted October 27, 2022 As fiddly as these railings are they are starting to take shape and will need to be built in place prior to gluing up the hull. I mocked up the main stay collar and beefed up the fore mast mounting by adding brass rod and extending the styrene base further into the deck. Thanks for looking. Michael D. Jeff T, Old Collingwood, Hubac's Historian and 5 others 8 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted October 27, 2022 Share #33 Posted October 27, 2022 (edited) I don't understand your mainstay setup: in Stockholm, the staycollar is (as so often in ships of this era) not going into the deck. see this pic on wiki: The Vasa from the Bow - Vasa (ship) - Wikipedia Jan Edited October 27, 2022 by amateur Jeff T, Old Collingwood and Hubac's Historian 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted October 27, 2022 Author Share #34 Posted October 27, 2022 (edited) Hi Jan, A few things led me to this decision, first In Landstrom's book the Vasa he mentions discussions regarding this very detail and this was the practice in some Dutch ships at the time and shows an illustration in the book of the arrangement that I ultimately followed. Here's a picture of the 1:10 model at the museum showing the same arrangement and if you look closely you'll see the collar pass beyond fore mast leading into the deck...no cleat or evidence of it being made fast to the base of the mast and oddly enough in the R.C Anderson book he makes no mention of this method but does show an illustration of how they rigged it on the real ship, also in the link you posted, again if look closely at the diorama picture you'll also see the main stay collar does not extend to the base of the bowsprit, so go figure. Michael D. Edited October 27, 2022 by 72Nova Jeff T, fmodajr, Hubac's Historian and 3 others 6 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted October 28, 2022 Share #35 Posted October 28, 2022 10 hours ago, 72Nova said: Hi Jan, A few things led me to this decision, first In Landstrom's book the Vasa he mentions discussions regarding this very detail and this was the practice in some Dutch ships at the time and shows an illustration in the book of the arrangement that I ultimately followed. Here's a picture of the 1:10 model at the museum showing the same arrangement and if you look closely you'll see the collar pass beyond fore mast leading into the deck...no cleat or evidence of it being made fast to the base of the mast and oddly enough in the R.C Anderson book he makes no mention of this method but does show an illustration of how they rigged it on the real ship, also in the link you posted, again if look closely at the diorama picture you'll also see the main stay collar does not extend to the base of the bowsprit, so go figure. Michael D. Hi Michael, It has been well established that there is no way the collar went through the deck, as that would require a corresponding arrangement below deck to take the collar, and there is none. It has been debated quite a bit in the past and there are indeed two holes in the deck that would seem to be perfect for the purpose. There are however no traces of the collar having been installed below deck and that arrangement does not work on the real ship, which is why you see it rigged around the bowsprit there. Hope this helps? Peter Old Collingwood and Hubac's Historian 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted October 28, 2022 Share #36 Posted October 28, 2022 I can follow your reasoning, but I never saw pictures of Dutch ships showing this setup. Also, this pic shows the setup as found on many Dutch pics. The only thing I can’t find wether or not Vasa has a gallion-knee that has a hole through which the collar goes, or that it is just around the bowsprit. But I don’t know how much of the stay-setup survived. Perhaps they vhoose this setup only because of the Dutch pics…. Jan Bill Morrison and Old Collingwood 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Posted October 28, 2022 Share #37 Posted October 28, 2022 It is indeed an unusual method. But on the model in Berlin museum it is also this way http://www.wasadream.com/Index/indexenglish.html Old Collingwood and Bill Morrison 2 Quote Regards, Patrick Finished : Soleil Royal Heller 1/100 Wasa Billing Boats Bounty Revell 1/110 plastic (semi scratch) Pelican / Golden Hind 1/45 scratch Current build : Mary Rose 1/50 scratch große-jacht / Yacht D'Oro 1/50 Corel Gallery : Revell Bounty Pelican/Golden hind 1/45 scratch Shore leave, non ship models build logs : ADGZ M35 funkwagen 1/72 Einhets Pkw. Kfz.2 and 4 1/72 Autoblinda AB40 1/72 122mm A-19 & 152mm ML-20 & 12.8cm Pak.44 {K8 1/2} 1/72 10.5cm Howitzer 16 on Mark. VI(e) Centurion Mk.1 conversion M29 Weasel 1/72 SAM6 1/72 T26 Finland T26 TN 1/72 Autoprotetto S37 1/72 Opel Blitz buses 1/72 Boxer and MAN trucks 1/72 Hetzer38(t) Starr 1/72 Cleaning the 1/72 military collection Si vis pacem, para bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted October 29, 2022 Author Share #38 Posted October 29, 2022 Thanks guy's, after a little more reading, R.C Anderson does mention that when the bowsprit is centered the stay collar passed around both sides of the mast, particularly Dutch ships, there were holes in the deck and beakhead bulkhead and then to the bowsprit, that makes sense to me but looking at some of the museum photos I do not see any evidence of a hole in the beakhead bulkhead and the wood looks to be original in that area of the ship so I'll rig the stay where it passes over the top of the bulkhead. Starboard railings are just about done along with the Kevels, far from perfect but will look good in the end. Michael D. Ondras71, Old Collingwood, BLACK VIKING and 4 others 7 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted October 29, 2022 Share #39 Posted October 29, 2022 Very good, indeed! 72Nova and Old Collingwood 2 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted October 30, 2022 Author Share #40 Posted October 30, 2022 A crowning moment in that the modifications to the starboard side of the hull are completed, railings, all necessary kevels, pin rails etc. I had to modify the chesstree to accept the main course tack line. Once I complete the port side, both sides will be detailed sanded, and the upper bulwarks and inside of the beakhead will be painted before assembly. Michael D. Baker, Jeff T, Bill Morrison and 3 others 6 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubac's Historian Posted October 30, 2022 Share #41 Posted October 30, 2022 I’m impressed by your piercing of the trailboard. Jeff T, shipman, Ian_Grant and 1 other 4 Quote We are all works in progress, all of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted October 30, 2022 Share #42 Posted October 30, 2022 Looking great! Some more details that may be of interest. Top circle -small square cabin window, Right, -pumpscupper, plus that the aftmost gunport is smaller on both sides. Cheers, Peter Jeff T, Old Collingwood, Hubac's Historian and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted October 30, 2022 Author Share #43 Posted October 30, 2022 Thanks Peter, I totally forgot about the scupper and cabin window but never noticed the smaller gunport, so here's the mods I made. Thanks Marc, it's a shame the two sides do not line up exactly, pretty far off actually. Michael D. baskerbosse, Cirdan, Jeff T and 4 others 6 1 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldemar Posted October 30, 2022 Share #44 Posted October 30, 2022 Not quite sure what you mean by 'not lining up', but please take a look at comparison of the two sides of the real Vasa by Fred Hocker (from his paper In Details Remembered. Interpreting the Human Component in Shipbuilding, 2013). There are more such 'misalignments' in the real ship, which would perhaps disqualify the model in modern modelling competitions. 🙂 Old Collingwood, Bill Morrison and Jeff T 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waldemar Posted October 30, 2022 Share #45 Posted October 30, 2022 This misalignment is perhaps the most spectacular (by the same author as above). Who dares to make an accurate model of the original? 🙂 scrubbyj427, Old Collingwood, Hubac's Historian and 2 others 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted October 30, 2022 Share #46 Posted October 30, 2022 (edited) Note also that in general, lower gunports are bigger than upper gunports. This dates back to earlier plans for armament that specified smaller guns for upper gundeck, this was later changed to a standardised complement of 24 pounders on both decks. Also, the small messenger port would be nearly invisible when closed, as the port lid profile matches the wales: Just an FYI for those who may not be aware, Google Scholar is a great resource for scientific papers, such as the paper by Fred mentioned by Waldemar above. Cheers, Peter Edited October 31, 2022 by baskerbosse Old Collingwood, Baker and Hubac's Historian 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted October 31, 2022 Author Share #47 Posted October 31, 2022 Hi Waldemar, What I meant is after I carved out the figures in the trailboard and mated up the hull halves, they do not line up and the span on the railings on the port side are a bit shorter than the starboard side. Looking at the photos maybe my model is closer to the real ship then I thought!😀. Reminds me the time when I opened up a 2 dial cannonball safe from the 1800's and disassembled it for repairs, upon assembly I discovered you could not interchange the spindles along with other misc parts, obviously each part was hand built, thanks for sharing. Thanks for the FYI Peter, I wasn't aware. I ended up harvesting an upper gunport lid to make the modification. Michael D. Waldemar, Hubac's Historian and Old Collingwood 2 1 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted November 2, 2022 Share #48 Posted November 2, 2022 Hi Michael, Looking back on your thread I noticed you installed this pinrail: According to Fred Hocker, this pinrail was a mistake in the reconstruction and was removed from the ship in 2006. A pinrail here would not work and would interfere with the guns, (plus there are not many lines to belay here) A reexamination of the evidence/fastenings on the ship indicates that there was most likely a large horizontal cleat or a kevel here for the main sheet. There are many details like this that will be included in Vasa II, (maybe coming out at the end of the year?) Cheers, Peter shipman, Baker, Jeff T and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted November 2, 2022 Share #49 Posted November 2, 2022 Vasa II? Is that another imminent model, or a monograph, or even a reproduction? Old Collingwood 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted November 2, 2022 Share #50 Posted November 2, 2022 (edited) Followup of Vasa I by Fred Hocker et al, published by the museum. Vasa I was mainly focussing on the hull and the archeology, Vasa II will be mainly about the rigging. It's been in the works for over ten years now and has grown to now be two books, plus a set of plans. (Vasa I book) Edited November 4, 2022 by baskerbosse Hubac's Historian, 72Nova, Old Collingwood and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted November 2, 2022 Author Share #51 Posted November 2, 2022 Thank you for pointing that out Peter, very much appreciated! Honestly I've been scratching my head trying to figure out where the main sheet would've been tied off at as what limited literature I have and all the models I have seen show the main sheet line passing through the side underneath the Qtr deck and therefore hidden. The pin rail removal is an easy fix and I will place a kevel just aft of that gun port. Hopefully those plans would include rigging/ belaying points? but may not be available by the time I'm ready to start rigging as all I have to go by is R.C Anderson and how other modellers have rigged there's. Michael D. Jeff T, Old Collingwood and Hubac's Historian 3 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted November 2, 2022 Share #52 Posted November 2, 2022 (edited) It should be somewhere between 50 - 60 centimeters between the horns, real size. RC Anderson's book is very good, but I'd go with museum plans where possible, as these are based on evidence found on the ship. There are errors though, and Vasa II should bring things up to current understanding. (avoid Mondfeld -Since, as Fred puts it 'almost everything is wrong' there) There was no real 'standard' at the time and there would be differences in how things were done, region to region and even from ship to ship. Note that while the ship itself was built under contract with a dutch shipbuilder, rigging in the swedish navy at the time was contracted out to to a Scottish contractor, John Clerk. While the rigging has similarities with dutch rigging, there are clear differences (the halliard ties going through sheaves in the cheeks for example) Another example of a ship rigged by a scotsman in Denmark and sharing some of these features with the Vasa is seen in this famous ivory/silver model of Norske Løve from 1654: https://www.kongernessamling.dk/en/rosenborg/object/ship-carved-in-ivory/ Peter Edited November 2, 2022 by baskerbosse Old Collingwood and shipman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted November 3, 2022 Author Share #53 Posted November 3, 2022 I do hope they will be available soon but in the meantime, I can keep busy doing other mods. So this is what I've come up with after removing the pin rail, I fashioned a kevel as close to scale as possible given the scale I'm working with, I cut in a sheave for the .45mm sheet line and mocked up the routing, this should suffice? Michael D. shipman and Old Collingwood 2 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted November 3, 2022 Share #54 Posted November 3, 2022 (edited) Keval looks good. Might want to move it a bit though (sorry). I don't think the run of the sheet should switch direction when going through the bulwark. It would make it difficult to sheet home. Also, there's no sheave there.. Small detail: The sheave is pointing a bit to much downwards, compare with Waldemar's side view above. Cheers, Peter Edited November 4, 2022 by baskerbosse Old Collingwood 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted November 3, 2022 Author Share #55 Posted November 3, 2022 So are you saying Peter I should move the kevel forward and eliminate the sheave and just have a hole aft the kevel? Michael D. Old Collingwood 1 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted November 3, 2022 Share #56 Posted November 3, 2022 13 minutes ago, baskerbosse said: Keval looks good. Might want to move it a bit though (sorry). I don't think the run of the sheet should switch direction when going through the bulwark. It would make it really difficult to sheet home, nowhere to stand, there's a bulkhead in the way. Also, there's no sheave there.. Small detail: The sheave is pointing a bit to much downwards, compare with Waldemar's side view above. Cheers, Peter Well, she did quickly sink - maybe when the wind gust hit they couldn't "let fly the sheets" because of this ...... 😄 Just being a smart alec........carry on! Old Collingwood and 72Nova 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted November 3, 2022 Share #57 Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, 72Nova said: So are you saying Peter I should move the kevel forward and eliminate the sheave and just have a hole aft the kevel? Michael D. From what Fred said, they removed the previously installed pinrail to investigate the original fastenings. This would put the kevel just in front (and above) the gun. And yes, there would just be a hole, as the sheet then doesn't change direction... fmodajr, 72Nova and Old Collingwood 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted November 3, 2022 Share #58 Posted November 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Ian_Grant said: Well, she did quickly sink - maybe when the wind gust hit they couldn't "let fly the sheets" because of this ...... 😄 Just being a smart alec........carry on! Hate to burst your bubble, but this sail was never even set.. 😉 😁 Ian_Grant and Old Collingwood 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72Nova Posted November 4, 2022 Author Share #59 Posted November 4, 2022 I've relocated the kevel and hole in the bulwark and started the painting on the bulwarks and railing, this is proving to be a bit more difficult as I need to use a finer tipped brush, it might be a tad darker than I'd like at the moment and I can fine tune the outer railing when I start the hull with a larger squared ended brush but is looking okay. Michael D. Old Collingwood, Cirdan, shipman and 3 others 5 1 Quote Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/20561-reale-de-france-by-72nova-finished-heller/ HMS Victory 1765: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPrp-3y7ntwH1vwfFsMMf0bWByRebwVKqePmRLqCx3aptq5sMlGZp_LtYv0v-seiQ?key=RWdjbWRKQWs2X1JSaDAyVTRuMHk5U3dOTHJCSDVB Completed: https://modelshipworld.com/topic/33007-vasa-by-72nova-airfix-plastic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskerbosse Posted November 4, 2022 Share #60 Posted November 4, 2022 (edited) Looks good. Found the plans (the older ones from the museum), here's the relevant area for the sheet. (the line in the top left, coming through the block then tied to the poop kevel, is the mainsail brace) Edited November 4, 2022 by baskerbosse Ondras71, Old Collingwood, BLACK VIKING and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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