The arming and fitting of English ships of war 1600 to 1815 by Brian Lavery

[DaveBaxt]

A late  Christmas present to myself.

I have just got what I hope is a very good deal on a second hand hard back copy of the above book. I am now the proud owner of 3 books The above together with James Lees book and John Harland so hopefully now have no need for any  AOTS books as they seem to be in great demand and therefore very expensive particularly the ones of the Bounty and the Endeavour. I would be interested to hear what peoples thoughts are on my latest addition. Thank you. Best regards Dave

 

[trippwj]

Nice. Lavery is well researched and frequently cited in academic research.

 

You have a very nice start to your library. What era and type of ships interest you?

 

I may have a copy of the Bounty AoTS. Let me check - I doubt I shall ever get to where I would build her.

 

[DaveBaxt]

THank you for your input Wayne. I am mainly interested in the 18th centuary for the moment. My first ship and my last build was the Bounty which at the time I had little to no experience with building model ships and made lots of mistakes. I also had very few books when I first started and really struggled with the manufacturers drawings. I have already bought my next model which is the HMS Diana and own the AOTS book for this particular ship.( I managed to pick this up second had too) Although out of interest, I have looked at this more for the drawings, I have been checking with Lees for reference for the rigging but will more than likely use the AOTS book for the other stuff. However now that I have Laverys book perhaps I will use this for reference and see if there any differences to the AOTS book. I have been informed that there are some mistakes in the AOTS books  so it will be interesting if I find any myself. Dave

[shipman]

Dave, good luck with your New Years project.

I'm fortunate to own all the AOTS series and recognise they aren't without flaws, but I would contend that if you can build a model which has less flaws you're a better person than most.

[druxey]

The caveat on AOTS books is true. They all have a number of errors in them, unfortunately. If you aren't fussy, no problem. However, if you plan to spend a considerable investment of your time on a model, it woulld be a pity not to get things 'just so'.

[shipman]

Druxey, I have the deepest respect for you and your superior knowledge, yet Dave appears to be embarking on only his second build.

If he can indeed put any model together based upon an ATOS title and include all or most of the enclosed detail, then that would be an accomplishment.

Is he prepared to search out and pay for all the books required, add all the time to read and absorb them to complete a model that 99.9% of folk would be none the wiser?

I do resent your implied comment 'If you aren't fussy',

Each of us live life to different ideals, but few it would seem should er from yours?

Not so long ago I recall you commenting (laudably) that this forum caters to all levels of interest and skill.

I would urge anyone to strive for perfection, but that rarely comes at a single bound.

[Jaager]

Dave,

 

Unless you intend to build for an academic audience and for a contest where the reward is the model becoming a museum exhibit,  except for maybe some very specific details,  you should consider the AOTS series to be close enough.   For long lived ships,  a specific version is selected.  It may not be the version that you wish to model, so keep that in mind.

 

Some of the vessels are complete reconstructions.  Nothing definitive is known about their actual lines.  For those vessels, as with kits purporting  to be their models, what those AOTS volumes represent are models of the reconstruction.  e.g.  Susan Constant, Mary Rose, the Columbus trio,  ...    not AOTS but would probably sell if they were: Revenge, Mayflower, Half Moon, Magellan's five   We even have models of ships that are only creations of the mind of a fiction writer. 

 

There is a range here of what is acceptable -  from pure fantasy to completely documented using contemporary sources.  I see nothing wrong with making educated guesses that are not anachronisms,  but you would probably do the future a favor by inserting a bond paper -india ink script- document listing your guesses (- along with your name and the date) inside the hull.  It is just a matter of defining your personal limits and being aware of that.

[Morgan]

Dave,

 

I see you are also NE based, an occasional source of books is Barter Books at Alnwick. Whenever I am up that way I call in on the off-chance. I have picked up several AOTS books over the years at reasonable prices, together with some rarer and more expensive specimens. It’s hit and miss like any second hand book store, but worth calling whenever you can on the off-chance.

 

Gary

[DaveBaxt]

5 hours ago, shipman said:

Dave, good luck with your New Years project.

I'm fortunate to own all the AOTS series and recognise they aren't without flaws, but I would contend that if you can build a model which has less flaws you're a better person than most.

 

5 hours ago, shipman said:

Dave, good luck with your New Years project.

I'm fortunate to own all the AOTS series and recognise they aren't without flaws, but I would contend that if you can build a model which has less flaws you're a better person than most.

Thank you Shipman for your input. Unfortunately I am far from building a model without flaws and looking at the standard of builds on this forumI doubt I ever will but enjoy it all the same. I probably do more reading on the subject than I actually do any modelling but enjoy that probably just as much . I find although very frustrating I enjoy the challenge too.

[DaveBaxt]

7 hours ago, Jaager said:

Dave,

 

Unless you intend to build for an academic audience and for a contest where the reward is the model becoming a museum exhibit,  except for maybe some very specific details,  you should consider the AOTS series to be close enough.   For long lived ships,  a specific version is selected.  It may not be the version that you wish to model, so keep that in mind.

 

Some of the vessels are complete reconstructions.  Nothing definitive is known about their actual lines.  For those vessels, as with kits purporting  to be their models, what those AOTS volumes represent are models of the reconstruction.  e.g.  Susan Constant, Mary Rose, the Columbus trio,  ...    not AOTS but would probably sell if they were: Revenge, Mayflower, Half Moon, Magellan's five   We even have models of ships that are only creations of the mind of a fiction writer. 

 

There is a range here of what is acceptable -  from pure fantasy to completely documented using contemporary sources.  I see nothing wrong with making educated guesses that are not anachronisms,  but you would probably do the future a favor by inserting a bond paper -india ink script- document listing your guesses (- along with your name and the date) inside the hull.  It is just a matter of defining your personal limits and being aware of that.

Thank you Jaager for your input which is greatly  appreciated. As I am a complete novice in respect to building models at any time it is probably my skill level which unfortunately lets me down and is probably age related so I probably will not get any better. Now that I am actually the proud owner of a couple of the AOTS books including the HMS Diana (my next project) I have since realized that the  mistakes in reality are probably not that much of a big deal for me but rather a passing interest. The mistakes that I have been referring to are that which has been mentioned occationally on this forum but again being new to this game I did not appreciate to what level the mistakes would be.Hope this makes sense. Best regards Dave.

Edited December 29, 2022 by DaveBaxt

[DaveBaxt]

4 hours ago, Morgan said:

Dave,

 

I see you are also NE based, an occasional source of books is Barter Books at Alnwick. Whenever I am up that way I call in on the off-chance. I have picked up several AOTS books over the years at reasonable prices, together with some rarer and more expensive specimens. It’s hit and miss like any second hand book store, but worth calling whenever you can on the off-chance.

 

Gary

Thank you Gary for that tip. I had forgot all about the book shop you mentioned as I have only visited the shop once many years ago. I often take a visit to Alnwick for a visit to the famous Alnwick gardens so the next time I am up there I will take a look. I wonder if they have a web site with a list of books. I will take a look and post the link if they do. Once agin thank you for your input.Best regards Dave

[allanyed]

There are more than 20 low resolution contemporary plans of Diana 1794 at RMG Collections as well as a contemporary model.  You may want to download these and compare to the AOTS book to look for any differences that might be there.

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/search/Diana plans 1794

 

Seven of these plans can be found in high resolution on the Wiki Commons site and are downloadable for free.  I think they are on pages 4 and 5 and labeled as Artois.  These are more than likely applicable to any of the  Artois class 38 gun ship, including Diana 1794 as pointed out on the RMG site which lists eight of the nine the ships of the class on each plan description.    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich

 

You might also find it a good idea to use these contemporary plans as you can have them printed at any scale you want on single large sheets.

 

Allan

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by allanyed

[Beef Wellington]

Think it is also worth adding that there is not always an answer to all questions, even with AOTS books, NMM plans, models etc.  There are often many small discrepancies and inconsistencies between even contemporary sources (especially the Artois's!), but part of fun is learning from this and working through these challenges to find the direction you want to go in.  Look forward to seeing you start.

[Alex-Ks1]

Carl Sagan once said ," If you want to make an Apple pie from scratch , you must first invent the universe" Same goes for the ones who try and make a perfect creation of a model ship , when you actually come down to it , it's impossible .

What type of paint are you using ?? ,It may be the right color but no way can you reproduce the exact formula .  This isn't about anyone or anyone's model just my observation. As much as we want to do the best we can , things just won't go right .. Take this .. when a drawing is made , for want ever , by the time it's done there may have been 30 changes to it , and none of the changes show up on the original drawings . This must be true when building old wooden ships let alone modern ships . Just how many changes ?? We,ll never know . 

The new modern kit models come real close , but it's a close rendering . I don't buy kits , to me that's building some one else's model . I don't try for perfection, I'll never achieve it , accuracy is important , but I won't lose any sleep if it's not 100% .I do it for the joy of doing it . The thing is there large and my wife is getting to the point these dust collectors need to go .

But then she changes her tune when I sell them lolololol

 

[barkeater]

Getting back to Lavery's Arming and Fitting. Very good purchase. I use it as a reference all the time.

Richard

[DaveBaxt]

8 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

Think it is also worth adding that there is not always an answer to all questions, even with AOTS books, NMM plans, models etc.  There are often many small discrepancies and inconsistencies between even contemporary sources (especially the Artois's!), but part of fun is learning from this and working through these challenges to find the direction you want to go in.  Look forward to seeing you start.

I  am beginning to think this is so true but as you have said that is the fun of learning. Thank you onc eagain.

[DaveBaxt]

14 hours ago, allanyed said:

There are more than 20 low resolution contemporary plans of Diana 1794 at RMG Collections as well as a contemporary model.  You may want to download these and compare to the AOTS book to look for any differences that might be there.

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/search/Diana plans 1794

 

Seven of these plans can be found in high resolution on the Wiki Commons site and are downloadable for free.  I think they are on pages 4 and 5 and labeled as Artois.  These are more than likely applicable to any of the  Artois class 38 gun ship, including Diana 1794 as pointed out on the RMG site which lists eight of the nine the ships of the class on each plan description.    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich

 

You might also find it a good idea to use these contemporary plans as you can have them printed at any scale you want on single large sheets.

 

Allan

 

 

 

 

Thanks once again for your help Allan and great links to add to my collection.Best regards Dave

[DaveBaxt]

6 hours ago, barkeater said:

Getting back to Lavery's Arming and Fitting. Very good purchase. I use it as a reference all the time.

Richard

Cheers Richard and good to hear another recommendation.

[DaveBaxt]

6 hours ago, Alex-Ks1 said:

Carl Sagan once said ," If you want to make an Apple pie from scratch , you must first invent the universe" Same goes for the ones who try and make a perfect creation of a model ship , when you actually come down to it , it's impossible .

What type of paint are you using ?? ,It may be the right color but no way can you reproduce the exact formula .  This isn't about anyone or anyone's model just my observation. As much as we want to do the best we can , things just won't go right .. Take this .. when a drawing is made , for want ever , by the time it's done there may have been 30 changes to it , and none of the changes show up on the original drawings . This must be true when building old wooden ships let alone modern ships . Just how many changes ?? We,ll never know . 

The new modern kit models come real close , but it's a close rendering . I don't buy kits , to me that's building some one else's model . I don't try for perfection, I'll never achieve it , accuracy is important , but I won't lose any sleep if it's not 100% .I do it for the joy of doing it . The thing is there large and my wife is getting to the point these dust collectors need to go .

But then she changes her tune when I sell them lolololol

 

Alex thank you for your thoughts which are much appreciated. I am beginning to understand where you are coming from  and probably  as I am at present building kits that AOTS series is probably accurate enough when I have the book at my hand. I can now always check for the books by Lees and Lavery which I now have on my shelf

[DaveBaxt]

Once again I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread and for some great links and references.Also for some thought provoking ideas. 

For anyone who happens to be in Northumberland England. Here is the link for the shop mentioned by Gary. I am definatly looking forward to  paying them another visit.

 https://www.barterbooks.co.uk/

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by DaveBaxt

[garyshipwright]

Hi Dave  Am just a little late to the party but have one other book that will make a good addition to you small library. Peter Goodwin has a very wonderful book and I use it and Brain Lavery  all the time and would be a good asset for you. It's called  the Construction and fitting of the English Man of War.  Do believe you will be very happy with this one and really has lot's of good infor that one need's for building them.  Have fun. Gary

Edited February 12, 2023 by garyshipwright

[DaveBaxt]

11 hours ago, garyshipwright said:

Hi Dave  Am just a little late to the party but have one other book that will make a good addition to you small library. Peter Goodwin has a very wonderful book and I use it and Brain Lavery  all the time and would be a good asset for you. It's called  the Construction and fitting of the English Man of War.  Do believe you will be very happy with this one and really has lot's of good infor that one need's for building them.  Have fun. Gary

Cheers Gary. I am really glad you mentioned this book and recommend it as I have also managed to find a cheap copy of exactly this book and in excelent condition.I have also managed to obtain 'Thhe young sea officers sheet anchor' by Darcy Lever which I believe also comes highly recomended and it has clarified a few things with good drawing which were  not in Lees book. Thank you for your input and please recomend or perhaps not anything which you come across as I am hoping to gradually build a good reference library . Best regards Dave.