Plastic or Wood models? Your Favorite?

[Bill97]

mtaylor I have been reading through your OcCre Endeavor build. You are doing a great job with it. What is your opinion of it?  I am sort of leaning toward the OcCre Endeavor. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Bill97

[mtaylor]

10 hours ago, Bill97 said:

mtaylor I have been reading through your OcCre Endeavor build. You are doing a great job with it. What is your opinion of it?  I am sort of leaning toward the OcCre Endeavor. 

I think you have me mixed up with someone else.  I've never done an OcCre kit or an Endeavor.

[Bill97]

YYes I do mtaylor. It is a Robert Taylor in the index that is working on the OcCre Endeavor. 
I apologize for the mix up. 😊

Edited April 13, 2023 by Bill97

[mtaylor]

13 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

YYes I do mtaylor. It is a Robert Taylor in the index that is working on the OcCre Endeavor. 
I apologize for the mix up. 😊

No worries.   I sort of figured it was something like that.

[Alex-Ks1]

my point of view only, Im having a hard time seeing the screen, Plastic kits are nice, every thing is already made, cut it loose from the die tree and paint it place it its good to go. wooden kits are good to, You pop out the precut pieces and paint them glue them and its good to go, a lot of detail work included . they are both good , for beginners and advanced. 

     then there the ones like me, I would buy the plans of a wooden ship, have them enlarged to 300 to 400% and built that from scratch.

This is not for the faint of heart, you have to plot everything, cut sand, through that one away and start another one. . BUT a hull thats 7 foot to 8 foot long has its advantages too. I can use air tools C-clamps of different sizes. power sanders and high speed cut off tools .

even an air Nailer . using 1 inch brads works very well for me,,, when I was doing it . I cant do it any more, I can hardly see the plans 

even up close , they get so fussy.  The last model I was building I was using 5/8 inch plywood for the  hull  and a powered jig saw to cut everything

there is a build log I stared hee but had to stop, Niagara  1 to 7 scale , cant ype ny more 

[Bill97]

Alex I have to admit that does sound like an adventure I would enjoy working with someone else on. At least a two person job, me as the second hand to someone that new exactly what they were doing. And in their shop. No room to work on such a project in my little home. 

[Bill97]

One thing I have noticed in looking through a lot of the wood model builds here on MSW is there does not seem to be as much painting as with plastic models. Of course as Baker said above once you have the wooden hull built the remainder of the build is very similar to plastic, just different material. So my preconceptions may be wrong about that. I really enjoy using a lot of color in my builds, both brush and airbrush. It looks as if in wood models the color comes from the wood species. I also realize I am free to paint certain wood pieces if I so desire so that factor probably should not play a part in my decision as to my next build. 

[Roger Pellett]

IMHO the all wood model is a convention reflecting the classic Dockyard models of the past.  These were made from high quality woods with just enough paint to highlight certain features.  A properly built Dockyard model made from the “big three” woods- Boxwood, pear, and holly is a beautiful thing indeed.

 

In the 1930’s American Manufacturers offered solid hull wooden model kits.  These featured rough shaped pine hulls to be finished by the builder.  These models were intended to be painted.  Two prized examples in my collection, built my father are still as good as new.

 

In the 1970’s the American market was invaded by European POB (Plank on Bulkhead) Models, most of which were junk hyped by a marketing plan.  During the 1980’s the Nautical Research Journal ran a series of articles describing these titled “Piracy on the High C’s”  Despite this, builders anxious to display their outstanding craftsmanship to their friends and neighbors finished these “bright” to highlight the woods used.  The kit manufacturers encouraged this trend by offering “deluxe” woods like pseudo walnut with no relationship to the Dockyard models of yore.  To me, one of these models repeat with lots of bright brass fittings like anchor chains, ring bolts, portholes, etc. shouts novice.

 

Today the builder of wooden models has choices for kits that will produce stunning, accurate results.  If you feel the need to build an Age of Nelson model companies like Syren and Vanguard come to mind.  These can include quality woods that like the old Dockyard models lend themselves to a clear finish.  On the other hand, Bluejacket offers a series of American workboats and ships that are intended to be painted.  See recent posts about Schooner Wyoming and 1890’s Battleship Oregon.  Like any art form, taste is required to match he subject to the presentation.

 

Roger

Edited May 4, 2023 by Roger Pellett

[chris watton]

For me, any steel hulled vessel is better in plastic/GRP and all wooden vessels are better in wood.

 

I would never choose a plank on bulkhead version of say, Titanic, Yamato, Bismarck over a plastic/GRP kit version, makes little sense to me unless the model I want to build has not yet been made into plastic kit form.

[Roger Pellett]

I believe that Bluejacket’s kits of steel hulled vessels are solid wood hull, not POB.  These can be built up into attractive and accurate models.

 

Roger

[Bill97]

Thanks guys. A lot of good food for thought. 

[OllieS]

The incompetent horror of a plastic childhood is abhorrent to me now and I don't expect that to change.  (incompetant middle age is comfortably normal)

That said the great thing about wood is that you are halfway to scratchbuilding whatever you need. I have seen youtube modellers explaining that they had to wait for a (plastic) part. Wood modellers do not have that problem, if I break or lose something I sigh and pick up a file etc, the only thing I've lost is time.

I also have the sense that wooden ships are inherently made of wood; and steel ships of some modern steel substitute which can't be wood because that would be a fake somehow.

[GrandpaPhil]

For myself, I prefer wood or card for wooden ships.

 

For steel vessels, I personally generally prefer plastic or card.

 

Although, I have some interesting books that discuss scratch building steel ships from wood.

Edited May 5, 2023 by GrandpaPhil

[Bill97]

Thanks guys. I keep debating with myself but I really think I want to try a wooden tall ship. After seeing a great number of wooden models at a maritime museum in Savanah, GA recently I was amazed by just how beautiful they were. And as a life long wood worker I enjoy the beauty of the different wood species. I know my ego will over rule by brain when the time comes to purchase my first wood model. I should probably start with a starter type model to get the feel for it, but I have no doubt I will go big from the start. 

[Bob Cleek]

5 hours ago, Bill97 said:

 And as a life long wood worker I enjoy the beauty of the different wood species. I know my ego will over rule by brain when the time comes to purchase my first wood model. I should probably start with a starter type model to get the feel for it, but I have no doubt I will go big from the start. 

As a life-long woodworker, you are well on your way to success, but be forewarned, aside from rigging and painting, there's very little similarity between plastic and wood kits. One assembles a plastic kit, but one must build a wooden kit. Wooden kits require far more time, and skill, to complete than plastic kits. If you "go big from the start," and if you are like most wooden ship kit builders, you can expect to spend as much as a year, or more building a wooden "tall ship" model from a kit. It can quickly become a daunting task that no longer is much fun. Then the enterprise is abandoned, and you become another novice who's bit the dust. 

 

Not to be pedantic, and certainly not wishing to dampen your enthusiasm for building a wooden kit model one bit, I must say, if you haven't already, you would do well to read the following thread before doing anything impulsive in buying a wooden model ship kit.:

After that, I'd urge you to read the following detailed building instructions ("practicums") by Chuck Passaro, a master modeler and forum member, in order to get a good idea of what is involved in building a rather simple, but not "dumbed down" kit of an 18th Century pinnace, and an intermediate difficulty level model of an American Colonial square rigged schooner:

 

BuildingAn18thCenturyPinnace.pdf (thenrg.org)

 

ColonialSchoonerSultana.pdf (thenrg.org)

 

If you're not thoroughly intimidated at that point, read the following general article on what to expect in a wooden ship model kit:

 

Nautical Research Guild - Article - Model Ship Kits (thenrg.org)

 

Thereafter, you may wish to read any number of the instructional articles in the "Articles" drop-down menu in the forum's caption:

 

Nautical Research Guild - Articles and How Tos (thenrg.org)

 

As will most any experienced wooden ship modeler, I will repeat the suggestion that you "start small" and do not let your "ego overrule your brain when the time comes to purchase my first wood model." Your first (or second and third) kit doesn't necessarily need to be a "beginner's model," but you should beware of letting yourself get ahead of the necessary learning curve before dropping a grand on a poor quality HMS Victory kit. A relatively simple model doesn't not need to be crude. If done well, even a model of an 18th Century ship's boat can be a thing of great beauty and pride of accomplishment. Because you do have your skills from plastic kit modeling and extensive woodworking experience, may I suggest you consider for your first venture into modeling ships in wood and bits of string and metal, Syren Ship Models' kit of the HMS Medway's longboat of 1742. See: Medway Longboat (1742) (syrenshipmodelcompany.com) This isn't a "beginner's model," but rather an intermediate to advanced level challenge, so your ego will not be compromised in the least, The instructions for building this plank on frame model are on the linked page as well, so you will be able to see the magnitude of the work involved and the challenges that may be encountered in building this really elegant model. Not only does Syren Ship Models offer some of the best model kits around, but more importantly, in my opinion, at least, Syren offers the best building instructions around which I think is often the most important feature to consider when selecting a kit. (And, believe me, some of the kit model instructions are real nightmares!) I believe there are also some "build logs" of this model on the forum.

 

 

Syren Ship Model Company|Boxwood ship model rigging blocks|Ship Model rigging rope |turned brass cannon| Chuck Passaro

Edited May 5, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Bill97]

Thanks very much Bob, seriously.  Everything you have listed here will be worth my time and study before I make my final decision. The time factor does not dampen my enthusiasm. The Heller HMS Victory I built (here on MSW) took me almost 2 years to build to include a lot of modifications I made with enhancements found on line and of course the extensive authentic rigging. The Heller Le Soleil Royal I am currently building (here on MSW) has moved into my 6th month with at least a full year to go!   Actually that is part of my desire for an attempt at a wooden model. I want a new challenge that will not be completed in a short period of time. I thoroughly enjoy the adventure more than the completion setting in a display case. I don’t know if you are familiar with OcCre wooden ship models. I have received a number of recommendations for their ships, especially the Endeavor which prices around $400. The reviews are very complimentary of the quality of parts, clear and precise instructions, and availability of customer service. That ship is currently where I am leaning. Of course I will be deep into my Soleil Royal for quite some time to come. This will give me plenty of time to read and study the material and recommendations you and others have provided me before making a decision. Again thanks so much. Very much appreciated. Please feel free to add any additional thoughts and comments you think might be helpful. 
 

Bill

[Bill97]

Got the new ModelExpo 2023 catalog today!  These guys are killing me!  This is like a kid looking at a Christmas toy catalog. All these wooden ship models are incredible. How in the world does anyone ever decide. 

[VitusBering]

32 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

Got the new ModelExpo 2023 catalog today!  These guys are killing me!  This is like a kid looking at a Christmas toy catalog. All these wooden ship models are incredible. How in the world does anyone ever decide. 

 

 

I'm still fighting the urge to pull the trigger on the Model Airways Curtiss JN - 4D Jenny. I have a Cutty Sark waiting on a veneer deck and a few other accessories that promises to take all my time, and an unopened sports car on the shelf. I have absolutely no business even drooling over that kit but it is invading my dreams. That catalog is evil. Deliciously evil.

[Bill97]

Your right Vitus it is deliciously evil. As I mentioned above I am about 6 months into a Heller Le Soleil Royal build that expect I to be still working on this time next year. Yet, I still can’t fight the urge to dream what will be next on my work bench. There are some beautiful ships from several different manufacturers in this new catalog. 

[Bob Cleek]

3 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Got the new ModelExpo 2023 catalog today!  These guys are killing me!  This is like a kid looking at a Christmas toy catalog. All these wooden ship models are incredible. How in the world does anyone ever decide. 

Many gave up trying long ago and "went over to the dark side" and became scratch-builders! (Not to mention that the cost scratch-building is nothing compared to the price of quality kits!)    

 

There are many build logs and discussions of the various Endeavour kits, including OcCre's version. I've been out of the kit arena for some time now, but a quick glance may indicate that the Caldercraft kit is the more historically accurate version. More reading assignments for you at: Searched for 'Endeavour' in All Content (modelshipworld.com)

Edited May 6, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Bill97]

Thanks again Professor Bob 😀.  Will complete my reading assignments and have a five page double spaced report ready for next class. 😊

[Bill97]

I am going to ask a question that shows I still have some nautical terms to learn. I see that the Endeavor has more of a rounded bow than other ships where the keel comes up prominently to shape the front of the ship. What is the name given to the two different architectural styles?  Is there a difference in the difficulty level of building each type wooden ship?

[GrandpaPhil]

The Endeavour has a bluff bow.  Make sure you use plenty of filler blocks around the bow.  I built the Mamoli Endeavour as my second actual ship build and that first layer of planking was challenging for me.

[mtaylor]

The Brits were known for that bluff bow style while the French and Americans went for the more "pointy" bow almost but not quite like a clipper.  As for names....... I'm not sure.

[Bill97]

Which of the two types is more difficult to build, or is there really not enough difference in the build process to have a bearing on the model selection?

[Roger Pellett]

Bluff bows-  Blame them on Henry VIII.  During his reign, a principal import into the UK was wine.  It was imported from Spain in large standardized barrels called Tuns.  To finance his reign, Henry imposed a tax on each Tun of wine imported.  The easiest way to do this was to rate each ship by the number of Tuns that it could carry.  Note:  This is a measure of VOLUME not Weight.

 

As the years passed, Governments wrestled with the way to “count the tuns” that a given vessel could carry.  The concept was so important that many shipbuilding contacts specified that the vessel to be built must measure xxx tons.  (Spelling change intentional).  The concept was also important enough that many operating expenses such a dock fees, port fees, pilotage fees, were based on tonnage.  By the 1700’s British law specified that tonnage would be determined by Length x Beam x Depth with the product divided by 100.  While measurement of each of these dimensions was defined legally, the actual shape of the vessel was not part of the calculation.  As the determination of tonnage did not depend on the actual amount of cargo carried, ship designers (Naval Architects) ever since have tried to “beat the system” by designing ships that could carry far more cargo that their rated tonnage.

 

By the 1700’s the principal cargo by volume landed into the Port of London was coal.  Coal is a relatively bulky cargo.  It fills a ship up more than it weights it down.  It was shipped in specialized sailing vessels that brought coal down from the Northern coal fields, returning in ballast.  Since many operating expenses were based on tonnage, ships built for this trade were intended to carry maximum volume of cargo on a hull built to minimum overall dimensions.  This required a full lined hull- bluff bow and short run aft.

 

James Cook’s early sailing experience was in the coal trade.  He was not a gentleman RN Officer. He was, therefore, familiar with the sturdy vessels used, so in purchasing a vessel for his expedition he selected a Collier.

 

The concept of tonnage is still used today.  Generally speaking when merchant ships are mentioned as “The 1500ton MV Rust Bucket arrived in port today.” The 1500tons refers to volumetric tons of 100cu ft not weight, and international shipping rates are quoted in “weight or measured tons” with the measured ton being the metric equivalent of 100 cu ft.

 

Roger

[Bill97]

Roger that is truly fascinating. I love naval history like this. If I were to build a bluff bow ship I will definitely have to memorize your explanation so as to impress friends and family with an explanation of why the bow is shaped like that.  Is construction of a bluff bow more difficult because of the need to bend the planking at a more extreme arc? 

[Bob Cleek]

41 minutes ago, Bill97 said:

 Is construction of a bluff bow more difficult because of the need to bend the planking at a more extreme arc? 

Not if one has properly spiled their planks and mastered the techniques of heat-bending the planks to fit before fastening them. The difficulty of planking a "bluff" or "apple-bowed" kit hull is in large part dependent upon the design of the kit model. The plank ends of a sharp-bowed kit hull are frequently set into a rabbet in the stem, or finished flush with the inner stem and covered by a false stem on top of the inner stem and plank ends. As I understand it, never having encountered the problem myself, some bluff-bowed kit hulls simply butt the ends of the bent planks against the side of the stem, which creates a poor glue joint faying surface due to the planks' end grain and little to fasten to mechanically. Your mileage may differ, of course.

[Roger Pellett]

The wood furnished for planking the hull is also important.  When wood is bent the outside fibers are pulled in tension and the inside fibers are compressed.  If the fibers, aka the grain, run parallel to the longitudinal axis of the plane chances are the wood will bend if properly softened by heat.  If however, the grain runs diagonally to the axis of the plank it is much more likely to separate (fail).

 

Roger

[Bill97]

Thanks Roger and Bob. This is really great information to know and have. So Roger in short, the wider a ship architect could design a ship at the bow so as to carry more cargo the better for the ship owner. That is fascinating!  I compare that design to maybe my Cutty Sark which has a definite sharp V shape bow. I would think a bluff bow would be much slower sailing. Both of you guys give me a lot of material to research before I decide and purchase which of the two hull types do I want to build.