HMS Victory Renovation - Outer Planking Removed

[Steve20]

Here's Implacable and Foundroyant together at Portsmouth.

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Steve20

[Martes]

2 hours ago, Steve20 said:

Duguay Trouin was a French 74 gun ship launched in 1800 and fought against the British at Trafalgar. She was captured at the battle and entered the Royal Navy as HMS Implacable. After 144 years they decided to get rid of her and offered her to the French, but the French also did not want her, so she was towed out to sea in 1949 and deliberately sunk

 

Curiously, Lambert (Last Sailing Battlefleet) mentions that certain group from Rochefort seems to have succeeded to assemble necessary funds to keep her, but then the Admiralty got cold feet about returning her to France and said she won't survive being towed cross-channel. Well, she didn't, explosive charges made sure of it.

[Beef Wellington]

4 hours ago, Steve20 said:

Here's Implacable and Foundroyant together at Portsmouth.

 

Thats the 'wrong' Foudroyant...it's actually the frigate Trincomalee, which was temporarily named Foudroyant before reverting back to her original name...and of course is now restored and berthed in Hartlepool as a museum ship.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Beef Wellington

[rcweir]

On 5/11/2023 at 2:22 AM, Morgan said:

I understand that part of the problem is the past use of laminated timbers, generally Iroko overlain with teak. The Iroko has rotted, whilst the teak hasn’t, meaning it looks good on the outside, but ……

 

The plan now is to go original and use oak, it will still use laminates, but all oak. I’m surprised they aren’t even trying to steam bend properly sized planks, but I gather from a trial video I watched that using thinner strips means it can be laminated over a mould of the individual plank without steaming and built up in the profile shape required.

 

Gary

FWIW, here is some work laminating HMS Victory's planking in the summer of '71.

[Steve20]

20 hours ago, Beef Wellington said:

Thats the 'wrong' Foudroyant...it's actually the frigate Trincomalee, which was temporarily named Foudroyant before reverting back to her original name...and of course is now restored and berthed in Hartlepool as a museum ship.

 

Sorry for the error, Jason. Appreciate the correction.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Steve20

[Steve20]

Another 74-gun ship that lasted until recently was HMS Cornwallis, which was launched in Bombay in 1813. By coincidence, she spent 144 years in British service, same as Implacable, until being broken-up in 1957. She had participated in few wars before becoming a jetty (1865), then a shore establishment (HMS Wildfire 1916), so she was probably in very poor condition. l don’t know if this was the reason for breaking her up, but there are people on this forum who will know more than I do and it would be interesting to hear from them. This may be a pic of her at Sheerness.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Steve20

[Steve20]

The RMG have a model of Cornwallis, which they say was constructed alongside the actual ship by the builder’s son. At 1:16 it’s around 20ft x 13ft x 7ft. Here is a link to it:

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-66638

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Steve20

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  I wonder what the model's sails are made of ...

[Roger Pellett]

Steve,

 

Can you tell us about the bottom photo in your last post?  Was the stern of Implacable salvaged before she was, sunk and then conserved or is this a replica?  Where is it displayed?

 

 BC (before Covid),  my wife and I made many trips to visit your beautiful country.  A highlight of these trips was often the interactions with your fellow countrymen.  These sometimes were related to my interests in maritime history. A particularly memorable one was a personal below decks tour of Steam Pinnace 199 while she was moored within the Gosport Submarine Base.  Unfortunately, while we have remained safe from Covid we are each four years older and less inclined to leave home.

 

Roger

 

 

[Steve20]

 

The stern is on display at the Royal Museums Greenwich, Roger. It was salvaged before she was sunk. Here's a link to it:

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-201426

 

And I hope you decide to visit the UK again, sometime, but travel can be a bit of an inconvenience. I avoid it whenever I can now.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Steve20

[vaddoc]

Looking at the photo of Victory's planking above, it is incredible how thick the planks are. Considering the thickness of the frames and the inner planking, the hull sides must have been 2+ ft thick - solid wood. And still a cannon ball could penetrate.

Edited May 13, 2023 by vaddoc

[Steve20]

In earlier posts in this topic I queried some aspects of gratings which, hopefully, are now resolved. However,  as the subject does not properly belong in this forum, I have posted the continuation in a new thread in the Discussion for a Ship's Deck Furniture, Guns, boats and other Fittings forum. Please find a link here if this is of interest to you.

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/34579-scantlings-of-gratings/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Steve20

[Morgan]

23 hours ago, vaddoc said:

Looking at the photo of Victory's planking above, it is incredible how thick the planks are. Considering the thickness of the frames and the inner planking, the hull sides must have been 2+ ft thick - solid wood. And still a cannon ball could penetrate.

Even thicker, we know from Trafalgar that the riders on Victory were shot through and broke, as were the Wales and some knees.  This means you had to get through the outer skin, and frames to get to the rider

 

So we have the outer planking at 4 / 5”, the Wales at up to 11”, the frames at approximately 13”, the inner lining at 4”, and riders at least 14” but more often than not greater (upto 20”) depending on height above the waterline.

 

In summary anything from at least 32” to possibly over 40”.  The destructive force of solid shot doesn’t bare thinking about. 
 

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve20]

On 5/13/2023 at 7:20 PM, vaddoc said:

Looking at the photo of Victory's planking above, it is incredible how thick the planks are. Considering the thickness of the frames and the inner planking, the hull sides must have been 2+ ft thick - solid wood. And still a cannon ball could penetrate.

 

Here are a couple of pics of the timbers in the hold. Unfortunately they are not the large cross-section that Gary (morgan) is talking about.

 

That's an incredible amount of timber to blast through, Gary.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Steve20

[Morgan]

Hi Steve,

 

The figures come from Bugler and Goodwin. What you won’t find on the present Victory are any Riders above the Orlop deck, but at Trafalgar these were in place, 2 sources, firstly the clue comes from Hardy in referencing them being shot through, secondly is correspondence I examined at the NMRN Library between the Chatham Officers and the Admiralty concerning the bolting up of these Riders during her 1801/03 refit.  There is a further source I’m attempting to access at the British Library that may detail the extent (if different to the 1787 plans), but the BL are a bit elitist and don’t let you always access their manuscripts collection unless you are from Academia or a published author!

 

These upper riders were effectively replaced by the iron knees, strapping, etc. in the 1814/16 refit, hence why we no longer see them.

 

Gary

 

 

 

 

[Steve20]

 

I didn't know about the riders, Gary, but I've seen some of the iron strapping. It's particularly evident on the orlop - see pics, below.

 

It's wrong that you're not allowed to see the British Library records. There's no good reason to restrict access so long as they confirm your ID and ensure you're aware of how to suitably handle them. The National Archives at Kew are really good about this; they make it very easy to view their records.

 

 

Orlop Deck. Port side looking forward - Cable Tier (aft entrance to Port Carpenters Walk can be seen on left)

 

Orlop Deck. Forepeak, looking to Starboard 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Steve20

[Morgan]

Last time I was at the BL I was trying to review Thomas Atkinsons journal, the Master of the Victory at Trafalgar, the answer was ‘no way’.

 

Fast forward a few months The National Archives copy (there are several original copies of each of the main ships logs) was in conservation, but they would have been happy for me to return and see it, going out of their way to ask Conservation to do a special viewing in their offices.  Unfortunately I didn’t have time, but now I do and I’ve got it booked for next Thursday.

 

I’m trying the BL again on the way to Kew next week to see some of the Nelson papers, fingers crossed 🤞, no rejection to my request so far, but I’m not holding my breath.

 

The Library at the NMRN are also very helpful, always got time to assist and dig out other documents if they are not busy.

 

Gary

[Steve20]

Here are some pics of the Victory middle deck port side with the planking recently removed. As it shows some frames that may be older than the others, I thought pics may be of interest. If anyone knows when these frames might date from, please let us know.

 

Middle Deck. Port side looking towards the stern.

 

 

 

Middle Deck. Port side looking towards the bow.

 

 

[Morgan]

Most of the frames at this level in the structure are 20th Century, I would suggest the older looking frames are from the 1920’s restoration and the newer from c.1960 onwards.

 

If you want to narrow it down I can point you as to where the raw information can be found, but you will need some spare time to collate it 😁. I’d have a go myself but the sun is out and lethargy has kicked in ☀️ 🌞 😎, I forecast it could last for a while (or at least until the Admiral issues new standing orders!).

 

Gary

Edited May 17, 2023 by Morgan

[Steve20]

Thanks Gary, You're very knowledgelable on the Victory and you clearly know a lot about the renovations, also. Unfortunately, there's very little info on the renovations given to museum visitors and although the museum guides are helpful, they've not been informed of much either. Hope you can share any more info you get.

 

Also, it would be interesting if you can give a pointer to where the raw info is.

 

Steve

[Morgan]

 

Hi Steve,

 

I’ve been looking at the historic record on Victory for a decade now, I really need to get a different hobby!

 

It is surprising as to how little there is published on Victory, literally just a hand full of books, some of them quite bad I’m afraid.  In contrast with Nelson and Trafalgar you could fill a library, but I’m afraid 95% of it is the same.

 

To understand how Victory has changed I would recommend starting with ‘H.M.S. VICTORY REPORT TO THE VICTORY TECHNICAL COMMITTEE OF A SEARCH AMONG THE ADMIRALTY RECORDS’ by LG Carr Laughton, published in the Marriner's Mirror, even though a hundred years old much of it is still relevant.

 

Unfortunately there are no detailed records of Victory’s 1920’s restoration, it was a simple case of rip it out and re-build it, no thought for archaeological processes I’m afraid.

 

Next on the list sequentially is Arthur Bugler in 1966 with his ‘HMS Victory; Building, restoration, and repair’.  Quite a comprehensive work and it details some of the 1920’s work and brings it up to date for 1966.

 

Next in line, chronologically, is Alan McGowan’s ‘HMS Victory; Her Construction, Career, and Restoration’.  He brings the restoration story up to date in 1999.  His restoration update is good, but his historical analysis is lacking in primary research.

 

Next in line, is the HMS Victory Conservation Management plan, I see you have part 1, there is a Part 2.  This brings the story up to date, but beware the Wessex Archaeology caveats, they have accepted the work of others historically as given.

 

Taken together the last 3 publications detail the structural modifications, the primary reference is by ‘Station’, the stations are the individual frames running sequentially from Bow to Stern, and I believe there is enough information in the 3 volumes to plot the timeframe in which frames were replaced.  If you attempt this it should keep you busy for a while.

 

Gary

 

 

[Steve20]

Thanks Gary,
I'll start with the Victory Report to the Vicotry Technical Comittee.

[Lieste]

What is quite frustrating is that most of the ships at Trafalgar are given the 'raw' 1770s establishment of guns in most books about the battle, despite a 1794 general issue of carronades as supernumerary weapons, and a few examples being quoted of the replacement of establishment guns by additional carronades on the QD and/or FC,  the formula 'QD and FC armament variously augmented or replaced by carronades in service' being particularly unhelpful.

We know this was done on a per ship basis, and to a degree at the discretion of the captain (especially as it relates to roundhouse carronades before the (near) complete replacement of QD guns by carronades and the deletion of roundhouse armament from the establishments, but there has to be better and more data than the obsolete establishment of guns from before the advent of carronades, and a notation that carronades were sometimes added in various numbers and sizes...)

Of course an AO authorising Carronades doesn't actually cast the numbers required... so there is going to be a delay between the new orders and the fitting of the last vessel to that standard, but it would be nice to have a better representation of the progression of changes and the actual and/or likely armament at the major actions, rather than a known 'probably not' fit of guns only.

[Steve20]

 

Have you tried the ordnance records at The National Archives (TNA). They have information on the fitting and arming of warships.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/board-ordnance/
 

As well as looking for the issue of carronades to ships, it would be worth looking for the issue of 68 pound shot and other carronade specific shot size.

A less likely possibility is the TNA ADM records (Admiralty, and Ministry of Defence, Navy Department: Correspondence and Papers).

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by Steve20