Any cannon kit recommendation?

[modeller_masa]

https://www.agesofsail.com/ecommerce/mantua-cannon-kit-french-carronade-ma800.html

 

While I was making the cross section kit, I felt I needed more detailed information about some parts, especially the cannon. I researched some cannon kits, and found Manual 800 and 806 cannon kits. There are some hesitations because the kit designs were built for forts, not moving ships. I'm not sure the 800 and 806 cannons were installed on ships in the same shape.

 

Is there any recommendation for cannon kits except Mantua kits? Scratch build plan are the most wanted. I would like to build cannons and cannon rigging academically. also, I want to detail the wooden deck and gunwale. Cannon-specialized reference books are also welcome!

 

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Loading procedure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cayTFunCkBA

 

Reference books

- Treatise of Artillery: Containing ... to which is Prefixed, an Introduction with a Theory of Powder Applied to Fire-arms / John Millan, 1768

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by modeller_masa

[mtaylor]

That may take some digging.   If I recall correctly AL used to offer cannons on decks so maybe they still do.  There is a scratch possibility using the Triton plans (cross section).   It may take some creative Googling to find something.   

[GrandpaPhil]

Check out the armament section in Zu Mondfeld’s Historic Ship Models.

 

The line drawings are fantastic.

[modeller_masa]

As long as I do research, I'm finding out what I'm missing. The climb will be long but exciting. I hope I meet my goal without a lot of difficulties.

 

Thank you for introducing the promising book, GrandpaPhil. I buy it.

[Jeronimo]

Hallo modeller_masa.

 

[modeller_masa]

That is breathtaking art! I can't imagine how many techniques and knowledge you used to build the project from the plan.

[Jeronimo]

Hallo modeller-masa

 

Bilder einer Franz. 18pdr Kanone.

[Roger Pellett]

Can’t help with kits, but artillery, shipboard armament, gun founding, etc is a highly technical subject by itself and separate from ship modeling.  Different countries’ armories produced guns of their own design, and of course, ships could be armed with whatever was on hand including captured guns.  The 1776 Gundalow Philadelphia recovered from Lake Champlain and displayed in the Smithsonian Institution was found to be armed with Swedish guns.  Where did they come from?

 

So, it would seem to depend what you are trying to do.  If you are just trying to dress up your cross section with a cannon, any gun of the correct period and scale should work.  If you are trying to model a specific situation you need to do lots of research.  If your model is French, check out the Ancre Publications,AND no brass cannon balls.  Also, the Carronade was probably cast iron.

 

Roger

[modeller_masa]

Thank you for the recommendation, Roger. The lot of research sounds not easy, but it is worth keeping on track. I'll focus on the famous ships until I get used to the various armaments from each country. The French ships are the next after I decipher the English ships.

 

Thanks again for all the comments. Your advice was very helpful in clarifying my destination.

Edited May 24, 2023 by modeller_masa

[allanyed]

Keep in mind that the cannon and carriages changed over the years.   Blomefields in 1800 looked nothing like Browne pattern guns in the 1600's and there were many in between just for the RN.  Carriages had four rolling trucks at times and only two at other times to name just one of many changes with the carriages.   If you pin down a year and nationality you will find it easier to move forward.  There were differences for Spanish, French, and Dutch to name a few.   You can have any barrel 3Dprinted in many sizes and scales size with 3D printers so your choices are not limited.

 

Looking at Geronimo's model, the rigging is different than anything I had seen before with the breech rope piercing the sides of the carriage.  Was this common to a specific nation/era/size?

Allan

[uss frolick]

That's the French method of rigging the gun tackle.

[allanyed]

Thanks Mr. Frolick, this was a new piece of information for me and I appreciate it.  Do you have any drawings and other information based on contemporary sources for French carriages as well as barrels that you can share?   

THANKS AGAIN!!

Allan

[mtaylor]

I scanned these in from zu Monfeld.   Hope it helps as they do match the ANCRE books.  Apologies if the scans aren't "perfect" as I"m having an issue with the scanner and software.

 

[uss frolick]

The French also had an unusual way of rigging their iron 24 and 36 pounder carronades after about 1805. The breach rope was one continuous loop that ran outside the hull through special scuppers and sat in a lead trough that ran below the outside bottom of the port cill. Odd. It must have evened-out the recoil when the carronade was trained at an angle, but it made the breach rope vulnerable to enemy fire. The US Navy carronades of the period were double breached for extra security. But one of the breaches ran through the hull in lead scuppers and ended in a knot or a fid, while the other was secured on the inside to a ringbolt in a British fashion. I'm not sure which was the main breach, and which was the backup, or preventer breach.

[allanyed]

8 hours ago, uss frolick said:

The French also had an unusual way of rigging

Thanks again

Several of us are working on a project that so far has about 130 different cannon from the mid 17th century through the early 19th century and appropriate carriage designs where we could find them.  The idea of the project is to end up with 2D and 3D plans for the barrels so they can be turned, cast, or 3D printed in any scale.   These are all based on contemporary sources.  They are mostly British with some Spanish, but we have found contemporary information for only a few French pieces.   Can you share your sources as we would like to continue our research in order to add more French to the mix to give members as many choices as possible for accurately produced pieces.  

 

Allan

[uss frolick]

For the French system, I can refer to the works of Jean Boudoit, with Le Cygne (the Swan) in particular, for the carronade rigging. 

 

The US method comes for contemporary sources, primarily British Courts Martial detailing the losses of British sloops of war in 1812-15. Add to this archeological evidence from Great Lakes and Lake Champlain shipwrecks, and long discussions with Dr. Kevin Chrisman at the North Texas State Archeology program.

Edited May 26, 2023 by uss frolick

[mtaylor]

14 hours ago, allanyed said:

Thanks again

Several of us are working on a project that so far has about 130 different cannon from the mid 17th century through the early 19th century and appropriate carriage designs where we could find them.  The idea of the project is to end up with 2D and 3D plans for the barrels so they can be turned, cast, or 3D printed in any scale.   These are all based on contemporary sources.  They are mostly British with some Spanish, but we have found contemporary information for only a few French pieces.   Can you share your sources as we would like to continue our research in order to add more French to the mix to give members as many choices as possible for accurately produced pieces.  

 

Allan

 

For the French?  It's pretty scattered.  There might be a book at ANCRE otherwise it's sifting through monographs.  Not being a French speaker, I have no idea what's in any archives in France.

[Lieste]

On 5/25/2023 at 11:15 PM, uss frolick said:

The French also had an unusual way of rigging their iron 24 and 36 pounder carronades after about 1805. The breach rope was one continuous loop that ran outside the hull through special scuppers and sat in a lead trough that ran below the outside bottom of the port cill. Odd. It must have evened-out the recoil when the carronade was trained at an angle, but it made the breach rope vulnerable to enemy fire. The US Navy carronades of the period were double breached for extra security. But one of the breaches ran through the hull in lead scuppers and ended in a knot or a fid, while the other was secured on the inside to a ringbolt in a British fashion. I'm not sure which was the main breach, and which was the backup, or preventer breach.

That was a caronade rigged on the non-recoiling principle - the breeching absorbed the recoil energy 'in place' with only 'slack' in the carriage assisting.
The first arrangement of their obusiers and very early caronades were mounted similarly to British Carronades with a long slide and a breeching that brought up the upper slide in the recoiled position.

I think the date of conversion to non-recoil was a little later than 1805 - Martin (1828) says copying British practice starting in 1806, with the definitive order for the arrangement in 1811.

[allanyed]

 

11 hours ago, mtaylor said:

For the French?  It's pretty scattered.  There might be a book at ANCRE otherwise it's sifting through monographs.  Not being a French speaker, I have no idea what's in any archives in France.

Hi Mark,

I am taking your advice and sending a note to Ancre asking if they can provide sources of contemporary based information.  I do not want to have to buy sets of  Boudriot books though to get this information.  I was planning to do some research at the Museé National de la Marine in Paris last week, but found out some weeks back that it is closed for renovation until late this year so that opportunity was nixed.  The plus side is that we still had a great visit in Paris and Normandy AND now I have an excuse to get back to France sooner than later. 

Allan

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by allanyed