USS Constitution by Der Alte Rentner - Model Shipways - 1/76

[SUBaron]

2 hours ago, JSGerson said:

After I finished my Rattlesnake (Hunt practicum), I wanted a change of pace before I started with the Constitution. I decided to work on the Conny's boats first. They were a lot of fun and you can load them up with as much or little (especially if you're going to cover them when they are finally installed on the ship) detail as you want. I relied a lot on the US Navy plans for the details. Surprisingly, the MS plan details were very close to the US Navy's. They were like eating potato chips - "you can't just eat one."

 

Jon

Jon - yours came to mind. I actually got so wrapped up in your boat build that I almost began mine that way too. I decided it was like a nice appetizer that’ll be eaten during the main course 🙂

[GGibson]

2 hours ago, JSGerson said:

They were like eating potato chips - "you can't just eat one."

 

32 minutes ago, SUBaron said:

I decided it was like a nice appetizer that’ll be eaten during the main course 🙂

 

Y'all are making me hungry, dang it!  😄🤷‍♀️😋

[mtbediz]

8 hours ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mustafa.  One thought I have it to stain the bulk of the hull to be darker than the section along the gun ports.  But in general, is there anything I should know about applying stains, poly, polyacrylic, and subsequent gluing?  There will be many parts to affix to the hull in the coming months, and I'm concerned about how will these will adhere.  I would not want to sand away then, any finish I painstakingly apply now.

I only use varnish on my unpainted models and I have no problem gluing things on them but I previously had severe gluing problems on a model where I applied tung oil.

Edited April 30 by mtbediz

[Der Alte Rentner]

Experimenting with stains and finishes begins.  This will take some time because I'm trying oil based gel stain, which I've grown to love using on larger refinishing projects.  According to information gleaned from the internet, the curing time needs to be between 24 hours and 3 days before covering with polyacrylic varnish.  Why polyacrylic?  Because that's what the Hunt practicum advises.  He applies no less than four coats of this to the hull after planking but before painting.  (why? oh why? Mr. Hunt does your practicum not address painting the hull below the gunports?  and why would you need four coats of polyacrylic before you apply three coats of black paint? - but I digress..)  

 

Since I'm still hoping to stick with a natural finish, I want a better/darker color than the kit's basswood hull planking provides.  

 

My first experiment is the plank section on the left.  Tried a combination stain/finish in walnut, with the plank in the middle unstained surrounded by one and two coats of the walnut.  Next up are three samples using Old Master's gel stain and one Old Master's wipe on stain.  The gel is easier to work with, but since I did have one open can of the American walnut, I threw it into the mix.  The other three colors are maple, cherry and pecan.  The last piece in the mix has only one coat of polyacrylic - so far.  After the stains cure, I plan to apply four coats of polyacrylic to those samples as well.  Lastly, I'm going to experiment with gluing various parts to these samples to see how well Super Glue holds.   

 

 

 

While I wait,  time to finish the last step in chapter 3 of the practicum - build a base for Conny.  I had a nice slab of oak left over from another project and reacquainted myself with my router table.  Oh Gee!  is that an ogee?  Pedestal fabrication is next.  I may unbox my Proxon lathe and try turning the pedestals myself.  

 

 

Another option:  Black dye.  I used this with fantastic results on another project years ago where I wanted to simulate ebony.  Now, to use this, I'd either have to apply it to the wood before doing anything else (besides sanding), or I'd have to mix it with clear polyacrylic.  Here, I applied the dye directly to unfinished basswood sample.  I wasn't happy to see the warping, but think this won't be a problem on the hull, given everything seems to be solidly affixed.   If I decide to paint, then this option would give me a solid black color in one pass. 

 

 

When I return to the ship yard,  I'm going to try mixing the dye with polyacrylic.  Most likely I will still try one of the stains above first.  If I'm unhappy with the result, back to plan B, which is to cover with polyacrylic, then to paint.   I have experimented with the paint before and learned that multiple coats would be required to cover properly.  Hopefully with a dye/poly I can get by with one?

Edited May 7 by Der Alte Rentner
added content - and, yes, once again corrected typos.

[SUBaron]

On 5/2/2024 at 4:06 PM, Der Alte Rentner said:

   

 

  Another option:  Black dye.  I used this with fantastic results on another project years ago where I wanted to simulate ebony.  Now, to use this, I'd either have to apply it to the wood before doing anything else (besides sanding), or I'd have to mix it with clear polyacrylic.  Here, I applied the dye directly to unfinished basswood sample.  I wasn't happy to see the warping, but think this won't be a problem on the hull, given everything seems to be solidly affixed.   If I decide to paint, then this option would give me a solid black color in one pass. 

 

 

That’s a really solid looking Black. I was wondering if using black dye would work on the cannons? I’ve read all the tales of woe attempting to use chemical blackening and I had some issues using primer and black paint.

 

Generally- Do you recommend applying the poly, then primer, then paint? Or does the poly negate the need for primer?

 

cheers!

[Der Alte Rentner]

On 5/8/2024 at 6:15 PM, SUBaron said:

Generally- Do you recommend applying the poly, then primer, then paint? Or does the poly negate the need for primer?

 

cheers!

Frankly, I have no idea, hence the experimentation.  My guess is poly negates the need for primer.  BTW, I did some prior experimentation with primer and think this is a complete waste of time.  You'll still need multiple coats of paint to adequately cover the primer.

 

Last night I tried making a paint by mixing a few drops of dye with a tsp of clear polyacrylic.  The resultant paint netted about the same awful result as the paint supplied by Model Shipways when I purchased my kit.  It will take multiple coats (at least 4) of either to get a uniform coat - and the brush marks are decidedly unsightly.   Were I committing to a black hull, I would definitely opt for the black dye.  It goes pitch black in one application.  Covering with poly may require many coats though, as the polyacrylic seems to dissolve the dye on the first two coats I've applied so far in this test.

 

As lousy as the results with paint have been in my experimentation, be it the Model Shipway product or my home made dye/poly paint, I would need to consider spray paint/air brush options, if paint ends up being the direction I choose.  The cleanest results are with gel stain followed by poly.   I could stain the entire hull and decide later to cover with paint, if I don't like the way it looks.  Boy, do I wish I'd chosen better materials in planking than this cruddy basswood.  If I'd known at the start of this project that wood matters, I may have used the Constructo kit materials on the Conny build instead.  Live and learn.

 

P.S.  Sorry, I forgot to answer your question about using dye on the cannons.  I don't think this would work.  If you want to experiment, let me know how that works for you.  Cannons are a ways off for me right now.  Wouldn't spray primer followed by spray black (or the combo primer/paint product) be the simplest approach?  I've used Rustoleum spray on metal before with great results.  

Edited May 10 by Der Alte Rentner
added P.S.

[Gregory]

Have you considered doing a 2nd planking with veneer?

You would have many options as to wood type.

[woodartist]

On 4/29/2024 at 2:06 PM, Der Alte Rentner said:

At last!  

Planking is done.  The last row was a royal PITA!  but all's well that ends well. 

 

Next steps?  Decide whether or not to paint.  If not, figure out a staining scheme, but experiment mightily first!   To buy time, and not derail construction, I may divert to other aspects of the build - maybe start constructing masts and spars?  Or, as seems very popular amongst others here at MSW, start on the cannons. 

 

But, First things first.  Tonight I celebrate this milestone with a double Manhattan and a fine meal out!  Tomorrow can wait. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is truly beautiful. Having planked two hulls now on my Vanguard models, I am ready to go back and complete the Conny hull. You have inspired me.

[Der Alte Rentner]

22 hours ago, Gregory said:

Have you considered doing a 2nd planking with veneer?

You would have many options as to wood type.

Yes,  yes I have.  However, as long as it took to get the first round of planking done, I'm not really thrilled about the prospect of repeating the process.  My thoughts this morning are to try the stain first.  If I like the way it looks, great.  If not, covering the hull with the planking material provided in the Constructo kit may be preferable to painting..

 

P.S.  your signature phrase, “Indecision may or may not be my problem.”
― Jimmy Buffett  Made me LOL!

 

Edited May 10 by Der Alte Rentner
added P.S.

[Der Alte Rentner]

While I'm experimenting with paints, stains, dies, and finishes, I finished the last task in Chapter 3 of the practicum.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11 by Der Alte Rentner

[GGibson]

Nice looking pedestal!  Is the center brace a part of the practicum or was that an add-on?  Looks great and provides additional support, I am sure.

[Der Alte Rentner]

15 hours ago, GGibson said:

Nice looking pedestal!  Is the center brace a part of the practicum or was that an add-on?  Looks great and provides additional support, I am sure.

Chapter 3 ends with Mr. Hunt building a base with materials he had on hand.

 

This is my own design, based on some photos of model ship bases I saw on the internet. The brass pedestals required counter sinking to allow the brass flat head screw to lie flush.

 

I got the shape for the cradle from the plans for Buckhead J, which seemed to be the right place in the hull for the support.

 

Some tweaking with drum sander required for good fit.

Edited May 11 by Der Alte Rentner
Added commentary

[Der Alte Rentner]

For those of you who want a black hull, of all the things I've tried, Old Masters Carbon Black Gel Stain netted the absolute best result. Two light applications with a foam brush, solid black, no warping of the wood, and I know from experience, once it's cured, it will take a coat of clear polyacrylic.

 

 

I will experiment further, to see if this can be applied over polyacrylic as well.

 

Hello!  In my digging through older build logs here, I found one by Cookster, who seems to be as finicky about workmanship and finish as I am.   In his build log, on page 3 post 76, he discussed the merits of aniline dye.  (This link takes you to page three of his build log).  He seems not to have finished the project, but I will be consulting the build intently as I work through the planking of the spar deck. 

 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 01:49 PM by Der Alte Rentner
added content

[Der Alte Rentner]

Just venting today..

While I ponder finishing options, I began working on the spar deck and hatch coamings. Thankfully, I double checked everything in the practicum before committing too much material and time to this phase of the build. 

 

1. Hunt's instructions are to cut the foremast from 7/16" dowel and to make the opening in its mast partner to fit that diameter stock.  The plans call for 3/8" inch, and the laser cut mast boot is likewise sized for a 3/8" foremast.  

 

2. Hunt's instructions provide distances from the center line for the hatch coaming framework.  There were several discrepancies there, as compared to the plans - most notably the dimension for the framework between bulkheads D and E.  (my take?  Trust, but verify.) 

 

3. Adding another Practicum observation (May 20) for the benefit of anyone following Hunt's directions for constructing hatch comings. On pages 19 and 20 in Chapter 4, Mr. Hunt provides detailed instructions for fabricating the material needed for the coamings.  Likewise on page 40 for the main hatch.  He glues up three pieces of stock for each coaming.  To boot, for the shorter coamings, because the kit didn't come with 3/32"x7/32" stock, he trims a piece of 3/32"x1/2" stock for the center piece.  All well and good.  But on page 26, where he shows the parts of the coaming in photo (P4.3.1-1), he says, "I made these pieces from a single piece of basswood with edge rabbets milled, but the principle is the same."  I think I'll go the milling route myself.  (I sure hope the zero clearance ring for my router table arrives soon. That will allow me to easily mill the material myself.)  

 

4. Once again, the materials provided with the Model Shipways kit disappoint.  All the dowels for the masts (5/6", 3/8" and 7/16") are misshapen - the 3/8" piece is completely warped.   Were I to go ahead with the 7/16" dowel for the foremast, there wasn't enough material provided to then be able to construct the main mast. The dowels are all different colors ranging from near white to mahogany.  Also, there wasn't enough 3/32" x 1/4" stock to complete the hatch coaming framework.  Last but not least, the material for the deck planking is off by as much as a 64" inch in width and thickness.   

 

Having spent much time reviewing Cookster's 2013 build log for the spar deck and coamings (wow!), I've decided not to mess around with cruddy materials going forward.  Even if I paint every thing later, I'm going to give myself better options by ordering replacement material from Modeler's Sawmill.  

 

(and before you ask, no, I'm not going to waste my time contacting Model Expo, where I bought the kit.  I'm still waiting on the replacement material for the hull planking they said they were sending on December 1 of 2023.  (Ticket #22286: replacement stock for USS Constitution kit))

 

Not sure where I'll invest my energy while I await material delivery.  Maybe start the side galleries?  Or take advantage of the nice weather?   

Edited 1 hour ago by Der Alte Rentner
added commentary about Hunt's hatch coaming construction

[mtbediz]

2 hours ago, Der Alte Rentner said:

Just venting today..

While I ponder finishing options, I began working on the spar deck and hatch coamings. Thankfully, I double checked everything in the practicum before committing too much material and time to this phase of the build. 

 

1. Hunt's instructions are to cut the foremast from 7/16" dowel and to make the opening in its mast partner to fit that diameter stock.  The plans call for 3/8" inch, and the laser cut mast boot is likewise sized for a 3/8" foremast.  

 

2. Hunt's instructions provide distances from the center line for the hatch coaming framework.  There were several discrepancies there, as compared to the plans - most notably the dimension for the framework between bulkheads D and E.  (my take?  Trust, but verify.)  

 

3. Once again, the materials provided with the Model Shipways kit disappoint.  All the dowels for the masts (5/6", 3/8" and 7/16") are misshapen - the 3/8" piece is completely warped.   Were I to go ahead with the 7/16" dowel for the foremast, there wasn't enough material provided to then be able to construct the main mast. The dowels are all different colors ranging from near white to mahogany.  Also, there wasn't enough 3/32" x 1/4" stock to complete the hatch coaming framework.  Last but not least, the material for the deck planking is off by as much as a 64" inch in width and thickness.   

 

Having spent much time reviewing Cookster's 2013 build log for the spar deck and coamings (wow!), I've decided not to mess around with cruddy materials going forward.  Even if I paint every thing later, I'm going to give myself better options by ordering replacement material from Modeler's Sawmill.  

 

(and before you ask, no, I'm not going to waste my time contacting Model Expo, where I bought the kit.  I'm still waiting on the replacement material for the hull planking they said they were sending on December 1 of 2023.  (Ticket #22286: replacement stock for USS Constitution kit))

 

Not sure where I'll invest my energy while I await material delivery.  Maybe start the side galleries?  Or take advantage of the nice weather?   

This is why I don't buy kits.

[JSGerson]

Quote

He seems not to have finished the project, but I will be consulting the build intently as I work through the planking of the spar deck. 

Read your post about following Cookster, and his comment about is log being broken, I just want to let you know that I have all of his images that he posted. When I follow a build log dealing with the Constitution, I don't just read it, I copy the log and store it on my computer. BTW, I did the same thing when I was building my Rattlesnake. I don't trust the internet to keep websites forever or maintain original addresses. I've seen websites crash and lose everything (e.g., ModelShipWorld and ModelShipBuilder). So even though Cookster himself seems to have vanished in a puff of smoke and his log is starting to slowly disintegrate (images have disappeared), I have a copy of his log and all of the associated images. Should you need images from his log, just let me know.

 

Jon

[Der Alte Rentner]

Wow, that is fantastic. Since I finished the hull planking and am starting the spar deck, anything you have subsequent to his last Conny post would be of interest.  I already uploaded everything that's there as of yesterday.

 

Thanks Jon.

[Der Alte Rentner]

19 hours ago, mtbediz said:

That is why I don't buy kits

Mustafa, if I had your level of expertise and experience, instead of being a newbie, I too would be building only from scratch. By the way he hasn't finished it, but cookster started a different build from scratch that you might want to have a look at.

[JSGerson]

When I responded to you, I checked Cookster's site and saw that there were a lot of images missing and those were the images I was referring to. You want the images for anything subsequent to his last relevant posting which was post #261 (Sep 8, 2014). I checked today to see what pictures were missing that you needed and to my surprise, the only images now missing, were on the first page of his log. If you want those, I can still send them to you. I don't have any more relevant images after his post #261 (Sep 8, 2014) which you stated you downloaded. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

Jon

[GGibson]

Was not familiar with Cookster's build log, although I have been bookmarking other logs for when I get to my own Constitution build.  Will add his to all of yours, as well!  Lots of research and reading to do once I get to that point!

[Der Alte Rentner]

On 5/18/2024 at 9:13 AM, JSGerson said:

I don't have any more relevant images after his post #261 (Sep 8, 2014) which you stated you downloaded.

Thanks for the follow up, but I've got everything of relevance to me already downloaded.  No need for the earlier stuff.   

Best.

Peter

[Der Alte Rentner]

On 5/18/2024 at 12:51 PM, GGibson said:

Lots of research and reading to do once I get to that point!

Amen to that my friend!