HMS Echo by Hamilton - 1:48 - Admiralty Models - cross-section

[hamilton]

1 hour ago, davec said:

Hi Hamilton - I have the Echo plans from NMM.  I've taken a picture of the decking plan, which does not include the location of the carlings.  Not sure what usual practice was at the time, but you aren't constrained by actual documentation of the ship regarding carling location.

 

 

Thanks for the photos Dave and Greg !

 

Dave - I would assume that the outline of the well would serve as a guide for the placement of the carlings, since all 4 chain pump shafts run down there. The odd thing is that all of the width measures I used - for the well, the mast partners and the slots between the carlings - were all correct, and the gauge given on the drawings in the practicum measured out at 3", indicating no distortion from printing....it is always possible that I placed the lower deck clamps incorrectly and that is throwing off the measures a bit, though I'm not sure how or if that would affect things in this way....

 

At this point, I'm considering two solutions - one inspired by Greg's reply above, the other by the promise of improving on the construction aspects of the well....

 

The first idea is to keep the pump shafts full from the lower deck planking upwards, but then notch them below the lower deck to fit the narrower slot. This would allow me to use the current well, which was built to the dimensions given in the contract. This "cheat" would not be visible on the finished model, though obviously we would all know it was there.

 

The second idea (which I've already commenced on by not committed to) is to re-build the well at a slightly wider dimension to bring its sides out in line with the carlings above. This will be a much more noticeable change to the well's construction since it will result in a much chubbier well.....

 

The only thing currently arguing against option 1 is that I already dismantled the original well for parts....the fore, mid and aft panels are still intact, though, so it would only be a matter of re-planking the sides, and re-doing the framing for the shot locker and the shot locker lids. 

 

Since I can pursue both options without committing to either, I think I will prepare for both and make a decision when it's time to install the well permanently - which won't be for a while in any case....glad that the speed of this hobby allows for some mulling over of problems and challenges!

 

Thanks again Dave and Greg - very helpful!!

hamilton

Edited September 2 by hamilton

[dvm27]

I looked into my cross section to see if I had the same problem but my pumps appear to have the proper clearance. If not, I would adjust the carlings by moving them a bit and or mortising to accommodate the pumps. 

 

[dvm27]

The simplest solution, if you don't mind a bit of a compromise, is to end the brake pumps at the main deck. The bottom segment which protrudes into the well is invisible (hidden by planking and the mast partner).

[hamilton]

Thanks Greg - ending the pump shafts at the lower deck is a good solution - though I wonder if, viewed from aft, the issue would turn up visually in the alignment of the shafts and the well....as mentioned above, I think I'll pursue both/all solutions until I have to commit to something. I started making a new well at wider dimensions - I'll post some photos later of the width discrepancy - it's not insignificant, though I think I've produced a cleaner and nicer-looking result. But it may look pretty daft with the extra width....and certainly not accurate!

hamilton

 

[DaKea90]

There is one thing, I'm quite curious about: There are so many people who build a cross-section of the Echo - why is noone building a full model of her? oO Greenwich has a full set of plans of her including an image of her stern decorations! Is it that she's just in a weird spot sizewise - too big for a small build but too small for a proper big multi-year project?

[dvm27]

We had lofted a sheer plan and frames years ago. We sold a few of them but no one ever built a model of her to my knowledge. It’s a shame because she would be a beautiful model!

[hamilton]

So all the talk has convinced me that I should stick with the original well measurements and cheat on the pump shafts by terminating them at lower deck level, as suggested by Greg, above. This will hopefully allow me to avoid the alignment issue with the passage of the pumps through the upper deck, as noted by davec.

 

I've already made the front and centre panels of the wider well that I had planned, so I think I will just modify these to the proper well measurements and go on from there.....I may also make some adjustments to the carlings if that helps with alignment issues....

 

Thanks all for the input and suggestions - it has certainly helped to clarify a path forward

hamilton

[hamilton]

So I did end up going ahead and building the wider well just because I was already half way through and wanted to see how it looked. It did turn out much better than the first one, just from a construction perspective, and it fits nicely below the deck pattern (everything lines up as it should). I will re-make it (a third time!) with the correct proportions, but thought I would show this version just to have it out there.

 

Also - I did some experiments with notching out wood strips as practice for when I need to fit the carlings and ledges. I used off cuts from the lower deck deck beams and milled a few strips of 6" x 4.5" (the dimensions of the carlings. I clamped the deck beam offcuts to a piece of plywood, marked out the notch and then lightly tapped along the markings to score the wood. I then turned the piece onto its face and chiseled out the wood using a 1/8" chisel. The first experiments are ok - not a totally exact fit, but I'm not very experienced with chisels so......I have a bunch of these to cut, so I imagine I'll get used to it, but the smaller notches for the ledges will be very tricky.....

 

Bye for now

hamilton

 

 

[hamilton]

So people (including me) are probably getting tired of the well! But I'm into my third version now and wanted to post a couple of shots to show the current state and comparison with the chubby well I made to compensate for the alignment issue with the lower deck framing noted above.

 

The consensus here seems to be to go with the well as defined in the contract and then fudge the pump shafts. I wonder if this will just look bad....or weird....but then the alternative is to use the chubbier well and risk throwing off alignment of the shafts through the upper deck, which would also look bad....or weird....The lesser evil seems to be the first option, but I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it....

 

In any case, I'm learning how to quickly throw together a well!! And certainly each successive version has been an aesthetic improvement on the last, which is good to see.....here are the shots - not sure if I'll get any time at the bench this weekend - a stack of marking to get through this weekend plus the usual household duties, so......might have to limit myself to watching others!

hamilton

 

[hamilton]

Just as a follow up - I've almost completed the third (and final!!) version of the well, with very limited time at the bench. When I dry fit this version and laid my lower deck template on top of it, there was the same issue with the carlings, but what I really wasn't doing when I "discovered" the alignment issue earlier was considering the angle of the pump shafts. When looking straight down, the problem of clearance around the carlings is severe, but when examined from the approximate angle of the pump shafts it's not quite as bad and if the carlings are shifted inboard by even a small amount (3 scale inches) the alignment seems more or less reasonable. Working through a batch of student essays at the moment and other pressing work demands, but hopefully I'll find some time this weekend to finish this part of the build off and commence on the next (lower deck framing) as most of my family will be away and work will slacken slightly.....bye for now

hamilton

[JacquesCousteau]

Sounds like you found a solution! Good luck with the grading, that's always been my least favorite part of teaching.

[hamilton]

Thanks @JacquesCousteau! I see you're located (at least partially) in Mexico City - I'm heading there next week and wondering if you have any recommendations for things to see/do other than the obvious musts (Teotihuacan, Zocallo, the Anthropology museum, Kahlo/Rivera type things, etc.)....restaurant recommendations are always welcome!!

hamilton

[JacquesCousteau]

4 hours ago, hamilton said:

Thanks @JacquesCousteau! I see you're located (at least partially) in Mexico City - I'm heading there next week and wondering if you have any recommendations for things to see/do other than the obvious musts (Teotihuacan, Zocallo, the Anthropology museum, Kahlo/Rivera type things, etc.)....restaurant recommendations are always welcome!!

hamilton

Sure! I'll send a message later today so as not to hijack your build log.

[hamilton]

Very much a kind of "in process" update. I've started on the hinges for the well using 1/64" x 1/16" brass rod, rounded at the ends and punched with a sharp awl to simulate (not very effectively) the bolts. I tried drilling through the brass, but this proved to be no easy task - assuming that softening the metal in advance by heating it might make this easier, but.....I used some very thin blackened wire to simulate the hinge pins. The photo below shows the hinges hanging off the wire, which will be trimmed back before installation. The wire is connected with a small drop of CA and I'll use epoxy to fit them onto the shot locker lids.

 

But the main work this morning was notching out the lower deck beams for the carlings. As a first step, I lined up the beams to mark out the centre lines and then marked the position of the notches to ensure that the carlings would run true between the beams - this took a bit of finessing. I adjusted the carlings around the lower mast partners/slots for pump shafts to address the alignment issues noted above - they were moved inboard by 1.5" in each case, narrowing the mast partners slightly but allowing for (I think) better clearance of the pump shafts. There were a couple of notches where I ended up tearing out a little bit of wood outside the area - this only affected one of the beams and only on the starboard side, so I've decided that is the side I will add deck planking to - the tear-outs will be completely hidden and will save remakinf the beam.

 

I was initially a little worried about carving out the notches, but the 1/8" chisel is the perfect size, and I ended up clamping the beams along a strip of 3/64" basswood, which allowed me to cut out the notches at the right depth and gave more control to the work. It was much less tricky (though it was pretty slow going) than I thought it would be - the 3" ledges will be another matter, since I do not have a 1/16" chisel to do the work that the 1/8 chisel did on the carling notches.....At this point, I think my only option is to try using a #11 blade for these much small notches....but we'll cross that bridge when the time comes....

 

I'm thinking that I will make a jig to assemble the deck beams, carlings (carved out for ledges) and lodging knees and then install this as one piece onto the model before fitting the ledges and hanging knees. The jig will consist of a 3/4" piece of MDF as a base a little larger in dimension to the overall deck surface, and with some wood strips added on the bottom to raise it for clamping purposes. I will then fix the deck framing template to the upper surface and fix thin (3/64") basswood strips between the beams to keep them evenly spaced. I'll then clamp the beams to this jig and fit the carlings and lodging knees and glue it all up. Since there is no round up to this deck this should be a workable approach.

 

I'm also a little nervous about the hanging knees - these seem like incredibly finicky parts to make - the joinery along the thick stuff and ceiling planks will be hard to get exact....but again, nothing for it but to give it a try....

 

The coming week is going to be quite a busy one as I have a tonne of work to get through before we head on a brief vacation for my wife's 50th....and it'll be pretty full on when we get back, so I'm not sure how much time I'll have at the bench in the next several weeks - I would like to get the well fully completed and the deck framing jig made, but even that might be a bit too ambitious....we'll see. 

 

Happy modelling and bye for now - enjoy the photos

hamilton

Edited September 22 by hamilton

[hamilton]

Last pics of the day - the well with hardware attached - I will re-do the inboard port side hinge as it got a little twisted when I was using the awl to (pretty ineffectually) simulate bolt heads by punching out from the back side.....in any case it's a little rough-looking, but I thionk it'll be fine once the twisty hinge gets corrected....

hamilton

 

 

[hamilton]

Ok - one last post seriously!! I made the jig referenced above for the deck framing and cut/notched out all the lower deck carlings. It was very tempting to install them on the deck beams, but I know I will have to notch them out for the ledges, so I have to be patient!! 

 

I cut a small piece of 3/4" ply and attached some 3/4" x 1/2" scrap wood strips to the bottom as risers. I then glued a 1/64" strip to the bottom edge as an anchor and marked out the position of the deck beams from the template I made earlier. I then clamped the deck beams to the board and cut each carling to length individually. As I went there were a couple of places where the notches in the deck beams had to be adjusted slightly to seat the carlings squarely. But I think there were only 2 or 3 of the 20 that needed this, which is a decent ratio I'd say. 

 

And now, a hiatus from building to focus on work and vacation...might be a few weeks or so before I have enough free time to really get moving again on Echo, but we'll see.....bye for now

hamilton

 

 

[hamilton]

Well it's been almost a month since the last update - and though I haven't made much progress with construction, I did finally take the dive yesterday (after much humming and hawing and fretting) and started to notch out the carlings to receive the ledges.

 

My main worry here was that without a chisel smaller than 1/8" (the carlings are 3" wide or 1/16" at scale) I would need to try to improvise some kind of cutting implement. Initially, I made a little tool out of some 1/32" x 1/16" brass strip - sharpening the end and fixing it into a wooden handle made from 1/8" x 1/8" beech. This proved ineffective. So I decided simply to use the 1/8" chisel in conjunction with a very sharp #11 x-acto blade. This worked ok, but as explained below I took a short cut with the middle carlings on each side....

 

The first step was to mill some 1/16" x 1/16" boxwood strips for the ledges themselves. I took a long strip, laid it across the carlings installed on my deck framing "jig" and marked out the width on the carlings to locate the notches. For the middle carlings on each side, I filed out a section, even though technically there should have been individual notches on each side - the short cut mentioned above. This saved me quite a bit of time and pains, though obviously it is not correct as per ship building practice.....At least one side of the deck will be planked and the cheat largely masked by other features, so I'm not too concerned.

 

To cut the individualised notches, I laid my 1/8" chisel at a roughly 45 degree angle in the centre of the notch as marked out and roughly 2 scale inches from the outside edge of the carling. I tapped it in lightly - this made a "v" shaped gouge along the grain, which I furthered to the markings using the x-acto. I then used the chisel again to tap gouges for the sides of the notch. Laying the chisel carefully on the top surface of the piece, with one edge along the gouge made to define the end of the notch, I then carefully carved out the notch, cleaning it once again with the x-acto at the end. The work is not perfect, but for a first-timer it is good enough. Now that I have the process down, I was able to complete and install the first flight of carlings and ledges between the centre and aft deck beams and between the chain pump shaft openings and the middle carling.

 

I now need to turn to the lodging knees so I can complete the ledges between the centre and aft deck beams. Before doing that (or in tandem with it) I'll keep working on the carlings and ledges in line with the main hatch (between the middle and forward deck beams)....slow going, but still fun when I can find the time!!!

hamilton

 

 

[hamilton]

Just for fun I tried dry fitting the deck framing assembly on the cross-section - I think it looks good - the gap for the pump shafts is still a little narrow for my liking, but we'll cross that bridge when it comes....

hamilton

[hamilton]

Some progress on the deck framing - I've now finished the carlings and inboard run of ledges between the centre and forward lower deck beams. Still remaining - the lodging knees, ledges between the outboard carlings and lodging knees, and the hanging knees. Before installing the deck framing permanently, I'll also make up some blanks for the chain and hand pump shafts, a stub dowel for the main mast and blanks also for the bitt pins - and I'll need to commence on the upper deck framing, as well - this is to test and ensure good alignment of the verticals through the decks. There's so much to be considered here!! It's a bit mind-bending the first time around as I'm just kind of feeling my way around the process. The practicum is good, but some details (like where the bitt pins are positioned) are not clearly spelled out. So I feel like from this point I'll be fabricating a lot of parts without necessarily installing them. But I think that once I finish the lodging knees and ledges for the lower deck and making templates for the hanging knees, I will permanently install the well, the pillar in the hold and the lower deck framing, then add the hanging knees. 

 

Anyways, enjoy the photos!

hamilton

[davec]

Hi Hamilton - your cross section is looking great!  I remember having the same feeling about all the three dimensional relationships at this point, especially the pump shafts which slant in two dimensions.  I think the original shipwrights made adjustments as they went to get everything to fit, and probably didn't build the well until after the shafts were in place, which isn't an option at 1/48 scale. I found the practicum did have nearly all the information between the text and diagrams, but purchased the plans from NMM (I'm hoping to build the complete model someday) and used some reference books for some additional information. Please let me know if I can help as you work through things.  Your approach of making a lot of the parts before doing any final installations should work great here.

 

Dave

[hamilton]

Thanks Dave - I do have the Swan plans from Admiralty models, so will consult those as reference - though a different class of ship I'm assuming that the arrangement for the sheet and jeer bitts would not have differed so significant since the vessel's were of the same rate, I believe....I don't think I would have been able to get so far on this were it not for the practicum (supplemented with the first two volumes of the Fully Framed Model) - there are (as mentioned above) some details that aren't covered there, but the clarity of the explanations of process are extremely helpful to a novice like myself

hamilton

[hamilton]

Snuck a bit of time to make & install a couple of lodging knees, plus some more ledges. Here are a couple of photos - no further commentary for the moment, as I'm being pulled into a game of Uno with my son.....

hamilton

 

[hamilton]

Ok - so the deck framing is now done except for the hanging knees. These will have to be fabricated before the deck assembly is installed, but i won't install them until after that. The current deck frame needs some sanding and I'll put a few coats of wipe-on poly, but you can get an impression of what it will look like. 

 

This work has been a good tutorial for the upper deck framing - though that is a bit more complex with the beam arms and accounting for the deck camber - can anyone tell me whether I need to craft the ledges of the upper deck to include the deck camber - I'm assuming yes, and am planning on fabricating the upper deck ledges out of thicker stock so I can sand it fair with the rise of the deck towards the centre lines.

 

The final photo here shows the pillar dry fit between the forward deck beam and the keelson (taken before I finished the deck framing) - I will need to remake this part as the one I initially made is about 1mm too short.

 

Next steps - the hanging knees, blanks for the pump casings, bitt pins and main mast (for alignment of these vertical elements through the decks), the lower deck waterway and spirketing, plus inboard hull planking between upper and lower decks. I think I can also make the forward hatch on the lower deck without building myself into a corner...after that I'll have to turn to the upper deck framing both as a project in itself and to check vertical alignments.

 

Enjoy the photos and happy modelling

hamilton

 

[hamilton]

Thanks for all the likes everyone!

 

Yesterday evening I made a trial of making a template for one of the hanging knees and I can already tell they are going to be a challenge for me - especially in the joint with the inboard hull planking....Their shape is not difficult in and of itself, but fabricating them to fit nicely - notched into the lodging knees at their upper edge and fitted along the uneven thicknesses of the foot waling - is going to be very tough....I'm at the tail end of a very intense period at work (as the flurry of activity over the weekend indicates), but it'll probably be another week before I can turn to this seriously...

hamilton 

[druxey]

Card patterns are the key here!