Sternwheeler From the Susquehanna River's Hard Coal Navy by Keith Black - 1:120 Scale

[mcb]

Hi Keith,

As wefalck said you sure didn't waste any time getting to this one.

I really like the choice of these interesting, slightly dilapidated subjects.  In the first 2 photos it looks like there may be some sag in the stern😮.

The pic in post 29 looks like you will get a lot of useful information from it though the boat appears newer and not so beat-up.

I agree that its: Pennsylvania Water and Power,

If its not too late you may be able to contact The Hagley Museum in Wilmington DE, as it seems they have some of the company archives and photos.

Perhaps you could get some more info (photos) that way.

Thanks for posting this,

mcb

[Keith Black]

9 hours ago, mcb said:

As wefalck said you sure didn't waste any time getting to this one.

I really like the choice of these interesting, slightly dilapidated subjects.  In the first 2 photos it looks like there may be some sag in the stern😮.

The pic in post 29 looks like you will get a lot of useful information from it though the boat appears newer and not so beat-up.

I agree that its: Pennsylvania Water and Power,

If its not too late you may be able to contact The Hagley Museum in Wilmington DE, as it seems they have some of the company archives and photos.

Perhaps you could get some more info (photos) that way.

Thanks for posting this,

 Thank you, mcb. I'm happiest when modeling, I need a project that calls to me throughout the day and these quirky rigs are fascinating and tickle my imagination.  

 

 The one in post #29 is a horizontal boiler, the one I'm trying to model I believe to be a vertical boiler and is a smaller boat. 

[Javelin]

On 5/30/2025 at 12:21 PM, Keith Black said:

 

 2) There's a smaller exhaust stack visible next to and to the rear of a steam whistle at the rear edge of the pilothouse. In the first photo only a wisp of smoke can be seen but in the last photo the amount of smoke is much more pronounced. Question is, why type of engine does it lead to? I don't think an electric generator would create the amount of exhaust seen in the last photo but electricity was used based on the forward light atop the pilothouse along with a working light on the port side plus a light bulb that can be seen at the top edge of forward engine room wall 

Late as ever, but you can count me in! 

 

I'd say that small pipe is an overpressure vent from the boiler. Based on the white colour of the smoke in your last picture as well as the fact that she is manoeuvering with that barge near the quay in that picture. She'd be reducing and/or reversing her engine at that time, which would create an imbalance with the steam production/consumption in the boiler. 

In those first pictures, she's made fast on the bow, but keeps pushing forward against the quay to keep her in position, which would create a steady steam balance and no need for venting any overpressure. 

Just my 2 cents, I'm not a specialist on steam systems of that age. 

 

I'll be happy to follow this build, lots of opportunities for weathering! 

 

[Keith Black]

5 hours ago, Javelin said:

Late as ever, but you can count me in! 

 

I'd say that small pipe is an overpressure vent from the boiler. Based on the white colour of the smoke in your last picture as well as the fact that she is manoeuvering with that barge near the quay in that picture. She'd be reducing and/or reversing her engine at that time, which would create an imbalance with the steam production/consumption in the boiler. 

In those first pictures, she's made fast on the bow, but keeps pushing forward against the quay to keep her in position, which would create a steady steam balance and no need for venting any overpressure. 

Just my 2 cents, I'm not a specialist on steam systems of that age. 

 

I'll be happy to follow this build, lots of opportunities for weathering! 

 

 Roel, thank you for the input and following along. You are absolutely correct, the pipe next to the steam whistle is the waste steam exhaust pipe. I had come to that conclusion earlier in the week but hadn't yet posted a corrected observation, thank you for doing so. Also regarding high pressure water pumps. I plan on building a twin beam engine for the boiler feed and for water used on deck for wash down, etc. 

 

 

  I'm having trouble figuring out what I'm looking at  in the below image. There is a thing on the port side engine deck, directly aft of the port side light board. In an unknown white triangle I see what I think is tube entering the top of a pipe (It could also be an electrical wire entering the top of a pipe) in the center of what looks like a VW tire rim layer flat. I have no earthly idea what this thing is???? Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. There's a three foot wide wall locker on the engine shed port side wall directly beneath the unknown object, possible connection unknown. There may have been a corresponding one on the starboard side but if so, it's been ripped away. If you look closely at the starboard side engine room deck edge you can see the deck edge is jagged fore of the starboard side light board and missing about 10 inches in and 36 inches aft of the light board. The light board could possibly have been replaced. Damage looks like the area was hit with a dredge bucket.  

l

[Glen McGuire]

7 hours ago, Javelin said:

I'd say that small pipe is an overpressure vent from the boiler.

If anyone knows about piping, it's got to be Roel!

[Cathead]

20 hours ago, Keith Black said:

There is a thing on the port side engine deck, directly aft of the port side light board. In an unknown white triangle I see what I think is tube entering the top of a pipe (It could also be an electrical wire entering the top of a pipe) in the center of what looks like a VW tire rim layer flat. I have no earthly idea what this thing is????

My first reaction is that it's the bow of a small boat, turned upside down. That's right where it might be kept. The white triangle is the shape of the hull, and the pipe/wire is simply the minor keel and its extension up the bow. There's enough room next to the pilot house to keep a little skiff and every vessel like this would have one.

[wefalck]

I think, Eric is right about the dinghy.

[Keith Black]

3 hours ago, Cathead said:

My first reaction is that it's the bow of a small boat, turned upside down. That's right where it might be kept. The white triangle is the shape of the hull, and the pipe/wire is simply the minor keel and its extension up the bow. There's enough room next to the pilot house to keep a little skiff and every vessel like this would have one.

 Eric, thank you but for whatever reason I'm having a hard time seeing that as the bow of a dinghy. I wish it was a aha moment because there should be a dinghy somewhere aboard and it removes one of the many question marks. If you and Eberhard see a dinghy then dinghy it is and I'll build accordingly. Thank you again!

 

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

I think, Eric is right about the dinghy.

 Thank you, Eberhard.   

[clearway]

Turn your back for a second and away he goes again- going to have to rename you" the stern wheeler kid " Keith😁.

 

Here is a pic of the coal fired dredger Clearway which worked Whitehaven harbour from 1928 till 1991 - the original steam crane was replaced with a diesel one in the late 60s and the pic shows the inflatable life boat which replaced the original wooden ones in the early 80s and yes she kept her coal fired steam plant right til the end which when she was scrapped was converted to oil firing and ended up in a scandinavian steamer that was being restored.

keep  up the good work

 

Keith

[Cathead]

Keith, I'm away from home right now but in a few days I can mock up that view using one of my steamboats and see if I can help you see what I see.

[Glen McGuire]

I was with Eric and Wefalck at first, but the more I look at it, the less I see dinghy bow.  It does look like there's a keel, but it seems to stop abruptly at the black thing.  The top end of the black thing looks like it's looped around the end of the keel thing.  If it's a keel, you can see the end sticking thru the black thing.  That doesn't make sense to me.  Could the white thing be a cover of some kind and the black thing is a tie-down?  Maybe a dinghy cover?  Also, the white doesn't lie flat on the slanted roof, but level with the water.  I'm stumped.

[Cathead]

Glen,

 

What we might be seeing is the sternpost? Flattened to accept a rudder? That would explain the straight black bit that transitions into the curved lower part of the keel. As for lying "flat" and not at the angle of the slanted roof, it may well have support blocks that keep it "level". Why have a dinghy stored in such a way that it's predisposed to slide off a slanted roof? If you look close, you can even see where the upside-down gunwale hangs out over a shadow below that would fit as some kind of support block.

 

It still looks strongly like a small boat to me.

[Keith Black]

8 hours ago, clearway said:

Turn your back for a second and away he goes again- going to have to rename you" the stern wheeler kid " Keith😁.

 I've got this sternwheeler virus bad. 

 

8 hours ago, clearway said:

Here is a pic of the coal fired dredger Clearway which worked Whitehaven harbour from 1928 till 1991 - the original steam crane was replaced with a diesel one in the late 60s and the pic shows the inflatable life boat which replaced the original wooden ones in the early 80s and yes she kept her coal fired steam plant right til the end which when she was scrapped was converted to oil firing and ended up in a scandinavian steamer that was being restored.

 Now there's a working boat that you need to build, Keith. That's a fine example of one. 

 

4 hours ago, Cathead said:

Keith, I'm away from home right now but in a few days I can mock up that view using one of my steamboats and see if I can help you see what I see.

 Thank you, Eric. Yes, please because I'm having a devil of a time seeing it but as I said, I'd dearly love for you to convince me it's a dinghy because it makes life much easier. 

 

4 hours ago, Glen McGuire said:

I was with Eric and Wefalck at first, but the more I look at it, the less I see dinghy bow.  It does look like there's a keel, but it seems to stop abruptly at the black thing.  The top end of the black thing looks like it's looped around the end of the keel thing.  If it's a keel, you can see the end sticking thru the black thing.  That doesn't make sense to me.  Could the white thing be a cover of some kind and the black thing is a tie-down?  Maybe a dinghy cover?  Also, the white doesn't lie flat on the slanted roof, but level with the water.  I'm stumped.

 Glen, I very much wanna believe but I don't see a dinghy, then I don't know what I'm seeing. As far a being a dinghy cover, I'm not sure a dinghy cover was a priority item aboard this vessel.

 

 

 One of the many things we've yet to discuss is crew. Only two crew members are pictured and I don't see hide nor hair of a third which would have been the engineer. Could they have gotten away with just a two man crew? That seems a bit sketchy. 

Edited June 7 by Keith Black

[Keith Black]

22 minutes ago, Cathead said:

What we might be seeing is the sternpost? Flattened to accept a rudder? That would explain the straight black bit that transitions into the curved lower part of the keel. As for lying "flat" and not at the angle of the slanted roof, it may well have support blocks that keep it "level". Why have a dinghy stored in such a way that it's predisposed to slide off a slanted roof? If you look close, you can even see where the upside-down gunwale hangs out over a shadow below that would fit as some kind of support block.

 

It still looks strongly like a small boat to me.

 Thank you, Eric. There are so many questions about parts of this push boat that are hidden or the view obstructed. I think what I need to do is build the hull, replicate the engine room, and pilothouse as faithfully as possible and then start adding those obscured items including, the boiler, wheel's steam cylinders, mud drum, beam engine for boiler feed, hand pump, and coal bin.  

[Cathead]

Hey Keith, just wanted to check in on how you're doing. I haven't been able to mock up that skiff/pilothouse idea the way I wanted, though I still think that's the most likely interpretation of the image. 

[Keith Black]

7 hours ago, Cathead said:

Hey Keith, just wanted to check in on how you're doing. I haven't been able to mock up that skiff/pilothouse idea the way I wanted, though I still think that's the most likely interpretation of the image. 

Good morning, Eric. I've got some windows arriving from Itchy Train today and I'm about to start building the hull. Did you see Lula and the pile driver in the Album images section? 

 

About a week ago I had a chance to check out the port side area next to the pilot house and I don't think that's a skiff/dinghy, If you look through the engine room window toward the port side you can see a vertical pipe with a circular valve handle near the top. A diagonal (?) crosses in front of the vertical pipe just below the valve handle. There is a horizontal pipe more to center of the vertical pipe. All this piping could be part of a centrifugal pump system with parts of it next to the pilot house on the port side?

 

Though small, the photo below is the best view of the area on the port side next to the pilot house.  For that "white" to be bow, the stern would hang off the edge and would make for a crazy storing angle. 

 

 Thank you for checking up on me. I should have a final answer on surgery this coming Tuesday. As of last Tuesday the surgeon wanted me to travel to Detroit for surgery but after further discussion he is going to get with two over vascular surgeons and go over all the reports to make sure everybody is on the same page.

 

  Keith 

 

Edited Saturday at 09:06 PM by Keith Black

[Keith Black]

 This short video is a great look back on the subject at hand. The sternwheeler in the background (not the one pushing the barge) is a split in two halves paddlewheel.

 

 One of the main questions is, how where these split paddlewheels engineered to turn. I'm starting to think they may have been gear driven. If you'll note, there's a very narrow width at the center of the two halves, it doesn't appear to be enough space for two cylinders unless the shaft was made with offsetting journals and the pushed at an upward angle. So much research and not knowing where to look is a killer. 

 

 

 For whatever reason the last video link does not alway play. in the first link you have to click the link and then click the far left image to bring up the video. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gettyimages.com%2Fid%2F2104816477%2Fvideo%2Fsusquehanna-river-bottom-is-dredged-by-laborers-for-salvage-coal-run-off-from-upstream-mine.mp4%3Fs%3Dmp4-640x640-gi%26k%3D20%26c%3Dn-LdslyjCMPXAAQ5VTzYzbTr9i2ORyt7P0AEneuitJU%3D&sca_esv=7fef18164babfbf6&source=hp&ei=YR1OaLb_JfrIp84P1qLnmQc&iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaE4rcWLxqF8GmSh8Mh3YCHahhR0Si6mZ&ved=0ahUKEwj2s8v-nvKNAxV65MkDHVbROXMQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gettyimages.com%2Fid%2F2104816477%2Fvideo%2Fsusquehanna-river-bottom-is-dredged-by-laborers-for-salvage-coal-run-off-from-upstream-mine.mp4%3Fs%3Dmp4-640x640-gi%26k%3D20%26c%3Dn-LdslyjCMPXAAQ5VTzYzbTr9i2ORyt7P0AEneuitJU%3D&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6ItYBaHR0cHM6Ly9tZWRpYS5nZXR0eWltYWdlcy5jb20vaWQvMjEwNDgxNjQ3Ny92aWRlby9zdXNxdWVoYW5uYS1yaXZlci1ib3R0b20taXMtZHJlZGdlZC1ieS1sYWJvcmVycy1mb3Itc2FsdmFnZS1jb2FsLXJ1bi1vZmYtZnJvbS11cHN0cmVhbS1taW5lLm1wND9zPW1wNC02NDB4NjQwLWdpJms9MjAmYz1uLUxkc2x5akNNUFhBQVE1VlR6WXpiVHI5aTJPUnl0N1AwQUVuZXVpdEpVPUgAUABYAHAAeACQAQCYAQCgAQCqAQC4AQPIAQD4AQL4AQGYAgCgAgCYAwCSBwCgBwCyBwC4BwDCBwDIBwA&sclient=gws-wiz#imgrc=dKKHNdGkDUEucM&imgdii=JAkcoAbrXzNgcM

 

  https://www.gettyimages.in/detail/video/the-bottom-of-the-susquehanna-river-is-dredged-by-news-footage/2104816477

Edited yesterday at 01:19 AM by Keith Black

[wefalck]

Perhaps a chain-drive?

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

Perhaps a chain-drive?

 Eberhard, the only chain driven paddle wheels I've seen were/are run by internal combustion engines but this vessel is definitely steam driven. I'm inclined to think the half wheels were gear driven which would have saved space by eliminating pitman arms.  

[wefalck]

You mean by drive-shaft and bevel gears?

 

[Cathead]

Keith, I dunno, eyes can be funny and pre-conceived notions can be strong, but that other image still looks consistent with a skiff to me and I think the main deck structure is long enough to accommodate both that and whatever pipe that is toward the back. But I'm not trying to insist on it or tell you what to do; It's Your Model very much applies here!

 

EDIT: Meant to add, I don't have an educated opinion on the drive train, if it's not a typical earlier-era setup it's beyond my knowledge. 

Edited yesterday at 12:24 PM by Cathead

[Keith Black]

7 hours ago, wefalck said:

You mean by drive-shaft and bevel gears?

 I assume so, Eberhard but not sure how a geared drive system would have been engineered.  I had a good B&W close up view of a center geared wheel but I'll be danged if I can locate it at the moment. I'll continue to try a find it.

 

 The image below is for a center drive chain system. If I could figure out how to make a steam driven chain drive I'd go that route in a New York minute. 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 06:38 PM by Keith Black

[Keith Black]

6 hours ago, Cathead said:

Keith, I dunno, eyes can be funny and pre-conceived notions can be strong, but that other image still looks consistent with a skiff to me and I think the main deck structure is long enough to accommodate both that and whatever pipe that is toward the back. But I'm not trying to insist on it or tell you what to do; It's Your Model very much applies here!

 

EDIT: Meant to add, I don't have an educated opinion on the drive train, if it's not a typical earlier-era setup it's beyond my knowledge.

 Eric, it's ALL conjecture on my part at this time. I have many many holes to fill with hour upon hours of research before I can say with some certainty that was the way it was. In the end, putting a dinghy would probably be the simplest solution.   

Edited yesterday at 06:55 PM by Keith Black

[wefalck]

Machining bevel gears it not trivial and one needs a pretty massive 'universal' milling machine or shaper and a dividing head for that. However, by 1900 it would not be uncommon to see bevel gears of some sort on steam-engines. For instance, they were used since the later 1860s or so to drive the rope-drums on ploughing engines.

 

Also, they became increasingly common in engineering due to the budding automotive sector, although there initially chain-drives were used.

 

Chain-drives were used on (sailing) ships for instance to power winches from a centrally placed IC engine, but also in stationary industrial applications powered by steam.

 

From the modelling perspective, one could turn a cone and file the teeth for bevel gears. You can buy them down to 0.3 modular, but that would be still too coarse for your scale.

 

For chains, one could try to find a so-called fusee-chain as used in certain types of clocks/watches, but I have no idea of prices.

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, wefalck said:

Machining bevel gears it not trivial and one needs a pretty massive 'universal' milling machine or shaper and a dividing head for that. However, by 1900 it would not be uncommon to see bevel gears of some sort on steam-engines. For instance, they were used since the later 1860s or so to drive the rope-drums on ploughing engines.

 

Also, they became increasingly common in engineering due to the budding automotive sector, although there initially chain-drives were used.

 

Chain-drives were used on (sailing) ships for instance to power winches from a centrally placed IC engine, but also in stationary industrial applications powered by steam.

 

From the modelling perspective, one could turn a cone and file the teeth for bevel gears. You can buy them down to 0.3 modular, but that would be still too coarse for your scale.

 

For chains, one could try to find a so-called fusee-chain as used in certain types of clocks/watches, but I have no idea of prices.

 Thank you for the information, Eberhard. At 1:120 I could probably cheat on the gears if I go that route and none would be the wiser, As you very well know, at these small scales often the suggestion is good enough. 

[clearway]

oh the mental anguish we do like to create for ourselves😉- i would go for a chain drive system as some industrial steam locomotives used them and it can take a bit more abuse and is more adjustable than machined gears.

 

Keith

Edited 9 hours ago by clearway
typo

[Keith Black]

1 hour ago, clearway said:

oh the mental anguish we do like to create for ourselves😉- i would go for a chain drive system as some industrial steam locomotives used them and it can take a bit more abuse and is more adjustable than machined gears.

 Sometimes modeling can be a bit masochistic, that's for sure.  I think I'm gonna research steam tractors and see if there's in relatable information there.  Keith, I like the idea of chain, it's coupling chine drive with steam where I'm having difficulty.     

[wefalck]

Aveling & Porter converted a couple of their traction engines for use on rails in the RN Dockyards. There is a preserved one in Chatham: https://newsite.dockyardrailway.co.uk/?page_id=89. The wheels are driven by chain from the crankshaft.

Edited 7 hours ago by wefalck

[Cathead]

Keith, is that image above the Millersburg ferry on the Susquehanna? It almost has to be, I can't imagine there being two places in the world with that unique a setup. If so, I rode that countless times growing up going back and forth between my home to the north and family to the south. It was an absolutely fascinating experience. That part of the river is something like a mile wide, bank to bank, but so shallow you could probably walk all the way across if the current wasn't too strong. You can actually look down and watch the river bottom going by. Never experienced anything else like it. I built a big Lego version of it as a kid, I was so fascinated by it.

 

Now I wish I had a bunch of photos, but at the time I took it for granted!

[Keith Black]

2 hours ago, Cathead said:

Keith, is that image above the Millersburg ferry

Yes it is, Eric. That's neat that you've ridden on her. I think I remember reading that she's Cat powered? The great coincidence of this build is your personal connection to Susquehanna. 

 

3 hours ago, wefalck said:

Aveling & Porter converted a couple of their traction engines for use on rails in the RN Dockyards. There is a preserved one in Chatham: https://newsite.dockyardrailway.co.uk/?page_id=89. The wheels are driven by chain from the crankshaft.

 Thank you for the link, Eberhard. From reading about chain drives it seems they were abounded for gear drives due to weakness of the chain but research continues.