HMS Fly by Martin W - Amati/Victory Models - 1/64

[JPett]

Ahoy Martin  

 

I love the "without the light" its looks much better comment. Might borrow that one for my log. I almost fell off my chair. . 

 

Don't forget that the wheels, cannon, and hardware will completely change the way your eye interprets that red  

[Landlubber Mike]

Hey Martin, the two shades of red seem quite close.  It's too late for this build, but depending on how the redheart ends up looking on the Pegasus, I've been thinking about using it on my Lyme build.  Of course that means removing some of the bulkhead extensions (thankfully, there are fewer as Corel just has extensions every 3 or so bulkheads), but maybe I'll stain the more hidden bulkheads to avoid some of the issues I had on the Pegasus.  I have a pint of Cranberry stain that from your pictures looks closer to redheart than the Cinnamon and Empire Red stains.

 

I wanted to get in my final wood order to Jeff for my future Charles Morgan build, and so I played around with the General Finishes Whitewash stain last night to see what wood I'll need to replace (there is a lot of white on the Morgan, like the masts, railings, whaleboats, etc).  I don't think the GF stains are pure stains - instead, I think they are almost like a hybrid between stain and paint, as they go on thin like stains but do have much better coating power like a paint.  I even tried it on some brass left over from my Badger's photo etched sheet - even without priming the brass, it went on very nicely.  The Morgan's white masts have rings and other items attached to them that are metal and are also white, so the GF Whitewash will work perfectly.  Just thought I'd pass that along in case you are thinking about using white on your build.

[Martin W]

That's an interesting observation on the GF stains, Mike.  They are quite thick, much more so than any other stain I've worked with, but I had written that off to the fact that they're water-based rather than oil.  The hybrid explanation would also possibly account for the uneven coverage that my picture revealed (still, the truth is that sloppiness on my part played the dominant role, but since I treated the stain as though it were an oil and that it would soak into the wood, I just slapped it on).

 

I'm still planning (hoping) to keep as much wood as possible unstained/unpainted and in its natural tones.  The wales will be stained black with GF stain, though I've been intrigued by discussions on other logs (eg Chuck's) where people use a very thin paint and apply lots of coats -- I believe Chuck even said he put on 30.  That thread has instilled a bit of an anxiety in me that perhaps gluing the strakes around the wales could cause the water-based "stain" to bleed.

 

Alistair, thanks for checking in, and a Happy New Year to you.  Even without your steady log updates, I still check back on your earlier postings frequently to see how you solved various problems.  Here's hoping you get to hear lovely bird songs every day!

 

Ahoy back, JPett -- glad you got a tickle out this -- lots of times as I'm gnashing my teeth I have to remind myself that I'm doing something that I truly do enjoy.  I hope 2015 is a good modelling year down there south of the Red River.

 

Now, where'd I put that party hat?

 

Martin

[Martin W]

THE WALES

 

For the second layer of the main wales, I decided to try my hand at top & butt planking.  The only real problem came right at the bows where I had to spile the planks as well as taper them.  I didn't take any pictures of that process, but I do invite you to imagine strings of expletives being mumbled in the boat yard.

 

Here's a shot of said starboard bow:

 

                                                  

 

Now, an interesting problem comes at the stern, just where the wales meet the curve of the counter.  The middle row of the three that make up the wales has to go through a serious twist as it passes from the side to the underneath of the bow. 

 

                                                  

 

David Antscherl suggests carving the last plank there, so that's what I did (and what has taken some 3 weeks).  First, I cut a piece from some thick stock that would fit the diagonal of the top & butt.

 

                                                   

 

Have I mentioned that I got a nice set of chisels for Christmas? 

 

In carving the piece, I had to accommodate both the curve taken by the hull at that point, and the twist of the wales.

 

                                                    

 

                                                    

 

The piece has to take this strange shape to follow the curve and twist as the wales pass from the side to the underneath of the hull. It ends up being thick on opposite corners on the side that will be glued down.  I left the other side alone until I'd glued the piece down and gave the glue plenty of time to cure (minimum 24 hours).  Here's a trial fit, with plenty of shaping left to go.

 

                                                     

 

And here it is after plenty of planing & sanding:

 

                                                      

 

The key reason I'd decided to finish the wales off before proceeding with the planking next to it is that I wanted to stain them (I'm assuming "wales" is plural?).  LL Mike:  your observation that General Finishes stains work like a kind of hybrid seems spot on to me, especially as I'm going through the process now of trying to get an even stain.

 

                                                      

 

I like water-based paints most during clean-up, and least when considering its coverage.  This water-based "stain" might penetrate the wood the way an oil stain would, but if it does then it doesn't spread as it penetrates.  The shot above is after 2 applications, and there are still some white spots that resisted the stain (I'm not sure you can see them, but they're there ).  They could be where I didn't get all the glue off, but I sanded all this enough that the glue should be long gone from any surface.

 

And, in looking at this now, I realize I have neglected to put in the treenails.  Och!    But the T&B pattern disappears enough that I'm tempted . . . . tempted to skip the treenails, which would surely disappear as well.

 

Now onto the rest of the planking, and the question of when to add stealers, and how many can one get away with. 

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

 

[aliluke]

Looking really good Martin

I'm intrigued by your carving for the wales at the stern counter. I didn't have to go through that - I just twisted those last pieces in a compound curve by double wetting. Carving seems like a tough pathway to a similar result.

 

But whatever - the result seems much the same and doing the anchor stock pattern is a great add - even though mine needs a bloody magnifying glass to see it!!!

[Blue Ensign]

That's an impressive bit of carving there Martin; I didn't insert treenails in the wales either, but I think you will find that your Top and Butt will show thro' sufficiently to indicate your extra effort.

 

Well done

 

B.E.

[Martin W]

Thanks for checking in, guys, and thanks too to the likes.

 

Alistair -- that's a fair comment; my primary reason for taking the tough pathway was that I actually have much more thicker stock than I do the thinner, and either way I had to begin with a piece that was close to 1/4 inch wide.  With that twist, and the difficulty of getting clamps around the stern counter, the carving seemed easier (and more fun).

 

Thanks, BE -- if I shine the light on the wales in just the proper direction, then some of the T&Bs show. I've put the first coat of Polyurethane on, and I'm hoping that it will draw some more of that out.

 

But at the same time, that evil, dark force known as My Job has imposed itself between me and The Fly -- more meetings, longer hours, more grumbling.  When I got home late last night, there was barely time to open the one beer.  Quel dommage!

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Martin, that's some really nice work.  I love the anchor stock planking effect, I'll have to try that out.  Also, the carving of the last wale planks came out very nicely, wow.  

 

Glad you like the GF stain - it works very nicely in my experience.  Have you thought about your overall color scheme for the upper hull? When I started this build I thought I would go natural for most of the hull except for black near the friezes, but now I'm considering going with dark blue (GF blue on pear) for the friezes area, redheart for the upper strip area, and black for the wales down to the copper line - framed by boxwood rails.  Still debating whether to go with black from the wales down to the copper line, but I like Realworkingsailor pulled that off on his build.

[Martin W]

Hi Mike -- Thanks for the compliments, they mean a lot.  I'm not planning on very much color at all.  I like the decorative friezes that I've seen on other Swans, but I also find myself drawn to the look of an almost entirely boxwood build, even without the "gold" decoration provided in the kit.  So this will be a pretty plain Fly.  My Rattlesnake build followed the painting in wood mode, which was interesting in giving me experience with the different woods, though when I look at it now, I'm not sure how successful I was. 

 

With this build, I have used holly for the planking,  and originally thought of ebony for the wales, but was dissuaded from that idea by a number of more experienced folks; and I had also thought of redheart for the gun carriages, but in choosing Chuck's carriages I learned about the Cranberry stain from GF, and will simply do that.  So, apart from those details -- and maybe some of the rails -- I'm hoping to stay with the nice warm tone of boxwood throughout (if my supply holds).

 

But I should also mention that I fear I've put additional pressure on myself to get the planking to look as nice as possible, since I'm coppering the bottom. 

 

I'll update the log a tiny bit by saying that I have put the poly urethane down on the wales -- 2 coats each side so far.  I was unsure about using Minwax wipe-on poly on top of the water-based GF stain, but the label on the stain says it will work, so I did it.  The cloth I used for the poly did take up some of the stain, but so far everything seems to be working.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Martin W]

For my top layer of planking, I want to use boxwood, unpainted and uncoppered.  Maybe that's a bit too ambitious, since I am figuring out that it means the planking has to look pretty doggone good.  And that means that I, the planker in question, have to know how each strake I lay affects those following.  I have no problems with going slowly, though pulling up work tends to have a demoralizing effect on my hobbyist's psyche.

 

So here's where I am:  I have laid the band that extends from the keel upward, and am halfway through the band that extends from the wales downward (leaving the middle band, which theoretically will be the easiest of the three, since all the real problems will have been solved by then).  Because we've gotten some much needed snow here in the prairie (we're in the seventh year of a drought), this past weekend I got to spend indoors and in the boatyard.  I've been thrilled with seeing the boxwood slowly move down the hull from the wales.  Until I got a reality check:

 

                                                       

 

It looked good, until I began to wonder how the 4 remaining planks were going to fit into the space left in the top band (those pencil marks on either side of the stern post are the rough limits between the top & middle bands). 

 

In my opinion -- based wholly and solely on aesthetics, since I've found no kind of authoritative statement governing this one detail -- the planks meeting the stern counter should be all of the same width.  That means I can't start tapering now, but should have done so from the wales inward.  So both sides need to be redone.  By my calculation these 5/32 inch planks need only to be tapered by 1/64 inch each.  An astonishingly small adjustment, but one that should (I hope, oh, I hope) make all the difference.

 

So, here goes.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Blue Ensign]

I did taper my planks both fore and aft below the wale and I made quite a long shallow taper, the exact proportions of which now elude me but 1/64 inch seems an incredibly small adjustment Martin from the overall width of your planks.

 

I can't correlate directly as I think we used different plank widths, my standard boxwood planks were 4.5mm wide and I fitted 10 between the wale and the stern post along the counter bottom.

 

Pity you've got to remove your four strakes, but as we all know once our eye has detected something we're not happy with, we can't let it rest.

 

Look forward to seeing the revised arrangement.

 

B.E.

[tlevine]

Martin, don't forget that the bands of planking are arbitrary.  I would probably lift up the aft 10-20% of the last two rows of planking and taper them to about 75% of the plank width.  That would give you room for three rows of planking to attach to the transom.  Whatever space is left is your new middle belt.

[Martin W]

Thanks for checking, folks, your comments are all very helpful and encouraging.

 

BE -- My boxwood planks are 5/32" which I believe translates into a skosh over 4mm (I'm well behind the rest of the world in converting over to the metric system, that blasted Napolean!!).  I believe the difference between your stern and mine begins with my wales, which go further under the counter than yours, so that 10 rows here would be nigh on impossible.  1/64" is a tiny amount, but would (theoretically) make the difference.

 

Spy -- The picture I included doesn't show the fact that I have also laid 8 rows of planking from the keel upward, and one of these includes a stealer.  If I need to put in another stealer, my guess is that it would be right there at the turn as you suggest.  Since the planks from the keel upward aren't tapered, I worry that the stern would look odd having wide planks at top & bottom and narrower ones in the middle.

 

Toni -- 75% of 5/32  would get the plank down to a bit under 1/4 (something like 7/64).  If I tapered the last 2 rows that much, would they look too skinny compared to the ones outside?  Your suggestion sounds straightforward and much less distressing than pulling up the aft parts of all 4 rows, but I still worry about the appearance of inconsistency.

 

Really, you folks have all given me plenty to think about.  My sense now is that maybe I don't need to redo the whole area under the counter. I'm all for having to redo as little as I can get away with -- AND this build is very much a step in the education of my understanding of ship architecture and in the development of my skills, so my primary aim is to get something that looks good and that is at least close to being accurate.  Time in the boatyard is tight, but I'll devote at least the next session to some study, trying to come at it with a fresh, unjaundiced eye.

 

Thanks again for the advice.

 

Martin

[tlevine]

Nobody's planking is perfect.  The key is to make it look "correct".    Take a look at my stern for a great example of not-perfect. (http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/198-hms-atalanta-by-tlevine-1775-148-scale-from-tffm-plans/page-47)  Don't forget, there is a molding at the edge of the planking that will hide some of the discrepancy.  I would be concerned that removing too much planking would damage the first layer and you would end up with a whole new dimension of problems.

[Martin W]

I don't know, Toni, when I zoom in on your stern, those planks look pretty close to being the same width -- and pretty doggone close to perfect.  Your point about pulling up the first layer is worth considering (what am I saying?! it sends chills up my spine!).  I'm hoping to get a few hours in this evening, and then I should be able to figure how much or whether to pull up.  It's supposed to be quite warm this weekend, and my farrier is coming out tomorrow, so tonight will be my one shot for a few days.

 

Cheers, and thanks for the advice.

 

Martin

Edited March 6, 2015 by Martin W

[Martin W]

Hello Everyone -- Looking at my notes, I see that I started the first planking back in October, and the second planking in December.  Well, yesterday afternoon at 16.44 (CDT -- I'm not sure how that translates into Greenwich Time, 1.44?) I finally laid the last plank.  My feelings can best be summed up in the simple, "whew."  When I set out, my aim was to learn as much about the necessities of planning ahead, of spiling and of possibly achieving symmetry between the two sides.  Ok, I got lots of practice spiling, since virtually every plank at the bow & stern required it, and many of those amidships too.  I planned ahead by dividing the hull into 3 bands, and calculating that the bottom, from the keel upward, as well as the topmost from the wales downward would each have 8 strakes, while the middle would have 7.  I measured at each bulkheard and plotted the width of each band, and figured the width of the planks passing along those points.  Seems logical enough.

 

Logic and reality don't always match.  A wee little mistake in, say, strake 3 will grow into a problem by strake 6, and the correction very likely creates another growing problem.

 

Ok, to the pictures.  Please feel free to comment (though believe me, I've already muttered "aw, phooey" plenty of times).  Don't mind the clutter.

 

Here's the full view from starboard:

 

                                                  

 

And here's how Leviathan would see it from the sea-floor:

 

                                                  

 

And here's the port bow, where you can see the drop plank.

 

                                                  

 

Here's the bow:

 

                                                 

                                               The port side shows some sanding, while the starboard is still rough.

 

Here's the port stern, with stealer:

 

                                                 

 

And this is the sternpost, which I include to show all the folks who offered their advice on maintaining a semblance of symmetry:

 

                                                  

 

There's still lots of trimming to be done, so that the whole area looks worse in the photo that it actually is.

 

It's all far from perfect, or even from being very good.  At times I wondered if a pair of proportional dividers would've helped with the planning ahead, but their price tag kept me in the wondering mode.  I've also considering covering it up with copper, but then decided I should keep it exposed to study for my next project (since I anticipate getting to the planking on whatever that ship will be sometime around 2020).

 

And there's my last 6 months!  Our house is covered in dust from renovators (the tile layers generated mountains of white powder), so this would be a good time to sand.  But in two days I'll be driving out to beautiful Taos for a 2-week sojourn.  I'm thinking of bringing the gun carriage kits along so I can spend the quiet evenings assembling them, and then I'll avoid separation anxiety.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

                                              

[Mirabell61]

Hello Martin,

 

the second planking Looks good, but still Needs some sanding (careful !) . Will you be coppering the Sub water Portion ?

In that case you could prepare a smooth surface by using filler in the critical (to be coppered) Areas.

At this time you see light at the end of the tunnel and that is encouraging. Will be curious to see the progress in two or three months.......

 

cheers, Nils

[Landlubber Mike]

Great work Martin!  Very nice job.  I'm about to start the second planking on my Pegasus, and your work is very inspirational!

 

Did you use to planking pattern in TFFM?  I've been considering trying it out.

[cobra1951]

Looks good and once sanded will look much better. Be careful when sanding either side of the whale that you don't round the edges of it.

[Martin W]

Thanks for checking in guys, and thanks for the kind words.

 

Nils -- No, I won't be coppering.  My plan all along has been to build this almost completely out of boxwood, and to keep the boxwood visible.  In the end, it will probably be a bit plain, but since I like the color and fine grain of boxwood, it will be ok.  And I hope that what I see is indeed the end of the tunnel, and not some ghastly error I'll need to correct!!!

 

Mike -- Well, I started off with TFFM in plain sight, and basically followed it as far as the wales.  But that hooked plank at the bow right under the wales intimidated me, since it would have required spiling and fitting at a skill level much higher than mine.  I hit on the butt pattern basically by working out a standard length -- which happened to be 4 7/8" (actual length) -- and then I more or less adapted that to the TFFM breakdown.  I started at the keel with the garboard strake, and then used the butts on that to set the pattern for the rest of the hull, basically by setting up a chart of the calculated number of strakes on the entire hull (23), and using the chart to set the butts when I started the band moving from the wales to the middle.  Surprisingly, the chart ended up being accurate -- my errors came from not calculating individual plank widths accurately.  Good luck on planking your Pegasus -- I'll be following your progress.

 

Bob -- Thanks for the warning.  I'm using a sanding block with no abrasive on the sides so that I can get fairly close to the wales.  Already, though, I've scraped off a bit of the stain -- grrr!

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Martin W]

Hello Everyone -- For the past few weeks I've been out in beautiful Taos, New Mexico, sojourning in a little adobe cottage:

 

                                       

It was as cute as could be, and pretty luxurious, despite its utter lack of internet availability.

 

I took along the gun carriage kits I'd bought from Chuck some time back, and I thought I'd spend the quiet evenings taking care of the repetitious matters, like drilling the holes for all the eye-bolts.  But after getting though about 4, I decided to do a trial with the black wire, and found out that the bit I'd brought was much too big.     Instead of progressing on my build, I just watched the sunsets:

 

                                         

 

But now I'm back in the flatlands and have proceeded to sand my hull planking.  Before starting the sanding process, I had been able to hope that with sanding all the bulges and gaps would disappear.  Oh well, here are some views of the current state.

 

First the bow (port side):

 

                                          

Here you can see the drop plank, and the trouble it caused me.

 

Next the stern with stealers:

 

                                          

 

And finally a view of the rudder post:

 

                                          

I still need to do a bit of trimming, and golly, I'd really like every thing to look a lot smoother, but I've already worked my way to the 400 grit paper, so I'll have to see.

 

I've also discovered in the sanding process that I'd let glue seep out from between the planks here and there, so that I needed to scrape it off with a dull blade.  In doing so, I scratched the boxwood in places that I'm also trying to smooth out.

 

That's it for now -- the workshop is filled with dust, and even my mask doesn't seem to keep everything out of my lungs.

 

cheers,

 

Martin

[Blue Ensign]

Just catching up Martin, your planking looks to be coming along fine to me; if you have any slight gaps or hollows some boxwood dust mixed with a spot of white glue  should go a long way to hide any imperfections.

 

Cheers,

 

B.E.

[Mirabell61]

good work and nice Progress Martin,

 

Nils

[Martin W]

Thanks for the nice words, BE & Nils, and thanks for the likes.

 

BE, that's good advice, I'll give it a shot, especially since I currently have a large stockpile of boxwood dust. 

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

Looks great to me Martin, very nice job!  Did you use pencil in between the planks?  Are you planning on adding treenails on the hull?

 

I've lined the hull for my wales and the rails, but need to take the next step of starting to plank the hull.  Seeing how nicely your hull came out is giving me the inspiration to start tackling that.  Plus, I'll be coppering and staining, so I can cover up what are sure to be a number of mistakes

[Martin W]

Hi there Mike, it's great to hear from you.  I did indeed use pencil between the planks, since it provides the dark edging without much smeaing.  As for treenails, my original plan was to put them in, but now I worry they would only highlight all my errors, so I'm giving them some thought.  It's also been such a long, long time since I've seen the Fly upright, that I'm getting eager to get to the upper planking.

 

The upside is -- as you point out -- that the shape of the Swan hull is so nice that even my inept planking can't take too much away from it.  I like the look of the coppered hulls on other builds, and I definitely want to do that for some future build. But here I'm still trying to stay with the all-boxwood look.  And as someone who's really just learning these basic skills, I think I would benefit from keeping as much of this planking in view as possible, in hopes that I will be able to anticipate problems the next time.

 

I'll be looking forward to seeing your own progress!

 

Cheers,

 

Martin

[Landlubber Mike]

The pencil looks great Martin.  I think I can get away with not using pencil as I plan on staining the area from the wales down in black, and the wales to the friezes in a darker brown.  If anything, the brown stain should settle a bit between planks to have a slightly darker look from the planks themselves.  Penciling the boxwood planks works very nicely.

 

I don't know how I feel about treenails though.  I've seen them done to great effect by the very skilled modelers on here where the planking and general construction was very clean.  At my skill level, I worry like you that they will just serve to highlight issues with my planking.  

 

I'm going to copper my Pegasus, as I've never coppered a hull before and would to try it out at least once.  I'm also planning to spile my planks as a practice run for when I ultimately turn back to my Lyme build (which won't be coppered).  The copper will hide any errors  Interestingly, I noted that many people add a thin black strip over the top of the copper at the waterline for a clean look.  Part of the reason I'm going with black planks down to the water line is so that the whole effect is clean to the waterline.  Probably easier said than done like most things in this hobby 

[Martin W]

That's a good plan, Mike.  I  think you've worked out a color scheme in which all the differenct shades will complement one another nicely.  As for the spiling, well, once I realized that it was something that needed doing, I understood that almost every plank required it in order to lie flat against the hull.  But even still, I ended up with several that twist out at the butt joint.  Ai yi yi!  But this Fly will be docked permanently in my house.

 

Can't wait to see updates on your Pegasus!

 

Martin

[Martin W]

Hi Folks -- I was supposed to build some new steps off the back porch today, but the rain kept me from that tedious job.  So instead I put my new Proxxon micro lathe through a few trials, but still the matter of the stern gallery kept nagging at me.  In I came and sat at the boat yard.  (I'll post photos of my new toy soon!)

 

This is an issue BE mentions in his log:  there's sizeable gap between the stern counter and the thin ply strip for the gallery:

 

                                          

 

Planking the counter upward (or downward, since everything is upside down) means that the gap also leaves nothing to lay the boxwood planks on.  So I cut a piece of the kit-supplied walnut stripping and glued it in just to give myself a foundation:

 

                                          

 

The next step was to trim a piece of boxwood that would match the curve of the gallery strip.  Easy enough -- I simply traced the curve of the strip onto a wide piece of boxwood . . .

 

                                          

 

Then I got out a chisel and trimmed it down (and let me add this -- every time I use these chisels I love them even more:  Look out Bounce!  You might have some competition!  ).  And voila --

 

                                          

 

Nice fit, if I do say so.

 

But then, as I began to think about how this final plank and the gallery strip would line up, I thought I should make sure everything would be level and balanced.  The best way to check, I sez to meself, would be to put the quarterdeck in to see how it would all come together.  Well, it's tight --

 

                                          

 

Ohh, nuts.  That extension just came off way too easily.

 

But maybe it was for the best, because the "mishap" made me start seriously sighting down the supports for the quarterdeck, as well as the gunport strips, and I realized that I needed to quite a bit of trimming to get everything copacetic here (I have a picture, but for some reason, every time I try to load it, MSW's fire wall blocks it, so I'll ask you to use your mental image of an uneven foundation for the q-deck).

 

I see some filing, sighting, and filing in my future.  Let's hope it keeps raining.

 

Onward!

 

Martin

 

 

 

[Martin W]

Thanks for that, Spy, it's useful information.  I had not thought about how high the gallery strip should sit -- I think I had just lined up a curvey bit along the top with the gunport strips.  I hadn't thought at all about the windows!  Hmmm, now I'll need to look at everything all anew.

 

Cheers,

 

Martin