Greek Bireme by bensid54 - FINISHED - RADIO

[bensid54]

Wow! Lots of interesting information, thanks for all your research avsjerome2003. I'm learning more about this ship as I go along, one thing I'm curious about is how was the sail positioned when underway using the oars? The sail would cause huge wind resistance unless it was taken out of the equation.

[bensid54]

I see well then because it is RC and I want as little wind resistance as possible I guess they will be broadside and furled. I wonder just how much that will slow down the oars?

[mtaylor]

Ben,

Can  you make the mast removable?   In for when it's on display, and out when it's on the water. 

[bensid54]

I could, the rigging however could be a challenge. I realize the one photo is not accurate but do able back then, I also understand the need to keep the deck clear, but how did they quickly and easily remove the mast, rigging and sail? 

[Louie da fly]

A beautiful ram, certainly, but perhaps not the first discovered. There's another at Piraeus museum which I saw when I visited Athens in 2000. As far as I know it had been there for quite some time.  It's at  http://greeklandscapes.com/greece/piraeus/pictures/pages/dsc00158_jpg.htm I have my own photo of it somewhere among my holiday snaps.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Louie da fly

[bensid54]

Louie, do you know what they did with the mast and sail when using oar power during battle? I've watched videos of the Trireme they built in Greece and when under way with oars they had the sails furled tight. I think that furled sails may be correct because I'm sure they put a lot of time and effort into research before they took on such a huge project and if that was how they set it up I'm sure that must be right.

Edited November 29, 2015 by bensid54

[bensid54]

When sails were furled on the Bireme did someone also climb up and bind them or secured them tight with rope?

[Louie da fly]

 The Wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme says the Ancient Greeks took down the masts and railings before battle (in the paragraph entitled Tactics. I read somewhere recently that they actually threw the masts overboard before going into battle and retrieved them afterwards. Certainly most battles were fought near land, so it's not unlikely they sent the ashore if they knew they were in for a fight.

 

In Byzantine times the same thing applied - masts were lowered before battle. They were nothing but an impediment and could actually be a danger if, say the enemy managed to cut the shrouds and make the mast fall.

 

Furling a sail by climbing out onto the yard was the common way to go until the development of footropes in the 17th or 18th century. Pictures of of 15th and early-mid 16th century ships show this, and there's no reason to suppose it wasn't done this way throughout history.

 

Steven

Edited December 1, 2015 by Louie da fly

[bensid54]

So I could forget about doing sails altogether, be much easier and that being the case this build would almost be done.

[Louie da fly]

Yes, I think so. It's battle-ready, with masts already removed . . .

 

If you were undertaking a voyage under oars, however, you'd keep the mast and yards in place - apparently they were accustomed to combining oars and sail when the wind was in the right direction.

 

Steven

[bensid54]

Steven would you know how they made the mast removable? Did they sit in a hole on deck? Were they braced and tied above deck? If there was a hole on deck was it covered with anything? I'd like to know so I can make a battle ready Bireme, as far as I know no one has made a display model of a battle ready Greek Bireme.   

Edited December 4, 2015 by bensid54

[Thanasis]

Hi all.

There's a pdf file titled as "BRONZE AGE SHIPS AND RIGGING" which can be found by a web browser...

I haven't read it (sorry ancient ships don't attractive me) but you might find something useful within its lines..

Btw... If my opinion counts, you're making a wonderful model. !

Thanks

[lionfish]

that ram is a work of art, the whole thing is amazing, cant wait to see her sail. maybe set up a mock hull to have fun ramming?

[bensid54]

Thank you Thanasis for the info and compliment I'll be looking that up right away and it may also come in handy for reference material for my next build which will be Charon boat man of the river Styx. Thanks for the compliments Lionfish I may just do that you know make one out of thin balsa with a lead keel, it would shatter, splinter and sink nicely.

[bensid54]

I read through that reference and was directed to other information, two key things I learned: 1. The mast was forward of centre for stability and for better control of the vessel. 2. The mast was supported above deck on other ships of the time by a mast box that would allow them to lay the mast down on deck and raise it with minimum difficulty. I do however plan on having the mast and rigging thrown overboard during battle, just the same a mast box would make reinstallation easier for them in that case, my intention is to have my Bireme look as it would when going into battle. On most of the depictions of Biremes and Triremes there were railings on deck to prevent the warriors from falling off plus the bow had railing that was solid from the deck up. The hatch doors for my rowers are made to tip out creating a shield for them if they were to shoot arrows while standing on their seats. So my next steps will be A. make railings. B. make a mast box and mount it forward of centre. C. remove the stand I installed for tying the rigging to and move it further forward. Now my question is what would sit on deck of those ships during the Bronze age that I can use to mount my deck hold down screw in? I thought of shields but would rather not make fifty shields, I don't know did they have boxes to store extra arrows in, what would stay permanently on deck? 

[bensid54]

Starting the stern handrails.

[bensid54]

Making the deck mast support block.

[bensid54]

More progress! I'm thinking that I would change what was originally going to be mast base to a pot of quills that way I can still hold down the deck with something that could have possibly been there. The block forward of deck centre will be the mast block where they would put the base of the mast in and give them a lever point to raise the mast against . The space between the rudder and deck rail is there for the boys to leave the centre deck and get off the ship to shore or another vessel for more battle. There is going to be a space between the railing and the bow enclosed railing for the same purpose as the aft space. All this stuff makes sense to me because extra arrows on deck may come in handy because you can never have too many. The mast block makes sense too because of the simple mechanical advantage of it and I'm sure they weren't a bunch of boneheads building these ships so they would know how it would benefit them. The railings would serve two functions A. Stop them from falling overboard too easily B. Give them something sturdy to hang on to as they make their way back and forth. C. Set up and spaced for easy and rapid entering and exiting of the area for warriors and rowers. As I read about the ships of those times I'm getting a better understanding and also the missing info lets me fill in the blanks myself, I just love doing stuff like that. Charon is going to be a real challenge I'm very much looking forward to that one.

[BenF89]

Looking like a lean, mean, fighting machine. She's about ready to help rout the enemy in the straits of Salamis!

[bensid54]

Thank you Ben I hope to have it finished early in the new year.

[bensid54]

Quill bucket to replace what was going to be the mast bottom/hold down screw.

[bensid54]

As it sits today! Next clear coat and make the eyes for the Bow after that lube the oars and make the carrying case. It's been a long road and I'm almost done.

[bensid54]

More pictures.

[S.Coleman]

I do Like you battering ram! Well done its coming up real good. How long will the battery last for rowing all theses oars?

[bensid54]

Thanks for the compliment S.Coleman! I really have no idea how long the battery will last I should start with running it for five minutes then check the charge level or put in a bigger battery, not really sure what direction to go. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by bensid54

[Omega1234]

Hi Willie

 

You're almost done! I've really enjoyed following along, especially watching your videos, so it'll be a shame to see your log end.

 

I gotta admit though, she's looking like she's meant for business with that battering ram. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that.

 

All the best for Christmas and 2016.

 

Cheers

 

Patrick

[bensid54]

Thanks Patrick! I expect to do a couple more videos and there will be more posts. The bulk of those posts will be the finished boat plus the building of the carry case for the Bireme, how it's made what it does and of course a video of the finished Bireme in the pond. I am now building the Bluenose for my wife so I'll likely start a build thread on that. I will be starting the Boat man of the river Styx when the motor arrives and I come up with an idea on how to have him operate a single oar while standing in the stern of his boat. The Boat man will have red LED eyes and below that a Fat Shark camera, I plan on having his head move back and forth and up and down, going to love that build too.

[bensid54]

Part way done on the beach or pond carry case I still have some things like the tool box and beach blocks to make and install then paint everything. I'm going to have to bail out my hobby shed to store it in there, the whole package is too big for my place and I'm sure my wife would have something to say about it (when don't they). The "V" shaped beach blocks will be held to the carry case with Velcro and used to set the Bireme on when preparing for launch the tool box will hold the Allen wrench and rack screws. Still more finishing and hopefully it will be complete before I thought it would be.

[captainbob]

Nice carrying case.  I see lots of fun on the water ahead.  Oh ya, don't forget to have extra rack screws with you.  You know how easily they can get lost.

 

Bob

[bensid54]

Good point Bob I'll have to dig through my screw supply. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours.