Let's talk 3D printers.

[kurtvd19]

The replication of carvings is a perfect application for 3D printing.  The curvature of the underlying surfaces can be accommodated in the design and the parts can be attached without the not always successful bending of white metal castings (in the case of kits) which are generally quite crude.  And for scratch building it will be great for those without carving skills.  Many with the skill to build a scratch model shy away from doing so because of their lack of carving skills.

Kurt

[JPZ66]

Janos,

 

First off, I will say that these systems are not exactly inexpensive, however, I have found several scanning services where you can rent them or even hire a technician to perform scans for you.

 

With that said.....YES, using Current Technology, you CAN get incredibly detailed scans...not just that, but SCANS THAT CAN GO DIRECTLY TO PRINT, without post scan processing work. Watch this video and pay close attention to the specs....this is here now...not tomorrow. Perhaps this is what you are looking for. -Joe

 

[JPZ66]

What level of accuracy are you looking for ? .002" resolution and .0012" accuracy is not accurate enough ? -Joe

 

I have no connection to this company, but I do like their products, please take a look at the specs page for these two devices;

 

http://www.creaform3d.com/en/metrology-solutions/products/portable-3d-scanner/technical-specifications-handyscan-3d

Edited November 25, 2014 by JPZ66

[JPZ66]

Well, I am not surprised that you got that sort of answer from the local source..... I beg to differ however. This "gadget" is about a $25,000 tool, and there IS NO POST PROCESSING ..... I hear this 'post processing' argument all the time, and that was indeed the case a year ago... It is also one of the reasons I am quite interested in Creaforms product..... There is no post processing of the scan file needed. I also found this video, which demonstrates the scanning of a statuette, perhaps similar in size to what you have and wish to scan.

 

I have worked with about a dozen scanners, and about a dozen 3D printers over the last 10-12 months, and I have watched marketing videos, read reviews and technical papers and conducted my own independant research on these technologies. This is not a gimmick, nor a toy. These are serious pieces of equipment. All I can say is that advances and improvements are made in these areas almost weekly, and if one does not stay current with industry developments then much is missed.

 

I am not trying to be argumentative, but rather to share with you and all the readers here some of the newest and most interesting technology in the hope that it may help or find useful applications in the hobby we all love. - Joe

 

 

[JPZ66]

Janos,

 

If the goal is to reproduce your wonderful sculptures, why not look at ( though you probably have ), utilizing CNC routing ? Not the big heavy duty stuff, but the highly accurate 'engaving' type, benchtop machines, that have a very high level of fidelity ? A number of very nice tracing stylus fixtures and software exist to allow a trace to be done, generate a file and then cut it. By using a 4th ( rotary ) axis, you can develop very complex 3D shapes, and if more angles are needed, it could be run on a 5 axis machine, which will cut deep undercuts. Just a thought.

 

For many of the things I currently do or am getting back into, reproduction is not my primary issue, as I make great use of molding and casting......whiich of course is another option for you. (Should you ever desire to have any of tour carving work molded and reproduced in cast resin, please don't hesitate to contact me, as I would be very happy to assist.)

 

My primary interest in this technology as a whole, is in the area of accurately recreating scale models from full size subjects.

 

And yes, I interpreted your previous post incorrectly, so my apology for that !

 

Cheers,

 

Joe

[JPZ66]

Janos,

 

Email sent....

 

 

If resin is an acceptable material for the reproductions, and please note that there are hundreds of materials to choose from, then molding and casting would certainly be a most cost and time effective way to go. Don't let deep undercuts throw you off. The proper techniques and materials can be used to reproduce nearly anything ! I will be posting much more on this subject in the not too distant future.

 

 

Joe

[AntonyUK]

Hi.

Just for interest. Not sutable for modeling parts.

A local food Shoping store here in the UK has a 3D scanning service.

They print in colour as well.

http://your.asda.com/news-and-blogs/new-3d-printing-service

 

Regards Antony.

[JPZ66]

Oh yes.... So far in this thread, I have tried to keep things related to scale modeling, however, as Antony has pointed out, the world of 3D printing and scanning is touching almost everything....

 

If you want to browse a broad range of things, the link below has articles on materials and materials development. Reading through those will really open one's eyes to the vast range of the applications. It is also interesting to note some of the names behind these developments.... -Joe

 

http://3dprintingindustry.com/raw-materials/page/44/

[fletch944t]

Well. This topic has really peaked my interest. Not simply because of model ship building but other areas as well.

 

But, keeping on topic, as I mentioned in my previous post this technology is interesting to me from the standpoint of possibly printing intricate carvings for the stern or trailboards as I am not at this point a master carver (e.g. like my great-grandfather).

 

Now, from what I've learned thus far, it appears that while the quality of the printer has a great deal to do with the quality of the object printed, the quality of the filament is equally important (please correct me if this is an incorrect statement).

 

That being said, it would appear that wood filaments require the use of a larger print head and extrude head than other materials. And because of that, it is not possible to achieve the quality and level of detail that is achievable with other materials. For those of you who are well versed in 3D printers, is this correct?

 

Fletch

Edited November 26, 2014 by fletch944t

[JPZ66]

You are correct about the filament being an important part of the equation. They are not all the same, nor are all the printers, drivers, software, etc, so one has to carefully research the various items a bit. Right this moment, if I were looking to print something, I would send my files to a service like Shapeways...as they have machines that are far too costly for most of us, and those will yield the best quality. Mostly when we think of 3D printers we think of the types using filaments..or FDM type...Fused Deposition Material....usually PVA or PLA.... Each material has distinct charachteristics. Frankly I don't think they can do quite what most of us really want right now. On the other hand, if the parts you want to make can be easily post finished, by sanding and priming, etc, they may be acceptable.

 

Regarding wood filament, you can currently get these in the same sizes as other filaments and they perform about the same. Again, for broad areas that can be sanded and dressed up, they should be fine. Small tight details would involve a much greater effort to get a nice clean finish.

 

That being said, there are now a few options in the SLA category...Stereolithography 3D. For hobbyist units there are DLP and Laser type systems. Each of these use a liquid resin for the material. They have their own demands and quirks, but offer a much better surface finish with thinner layering and higher resolution. I know of at least 3 or 4 models in this category that are priced under $4000 dollars. Some of these machines can also print 'castable' resins. What this means is that the resins, once printed, can go into investment molds and be burned out cleanly for investment casting.....this of course is aimed at the jewelry market, but would also be suited for the model ship people that cast brass.

 

Again, I am certainly no expert, but I have been researching these for some time, and test running a few differnt things to try and see if it is something I want to invest in.

It's tough right now because so many new products are coming out so quickly.

 

Hope this information helps !

 

Joe

[fletch944t]

Thanks Joe. Very informative. This is fascinating technology. And, while I'll probably at least attempt some intricate carvings, it's nice to know that there may be alternative on the horizon if my own carvings are not up to par.

 

Fletch

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

There is an article in this month's National Geographic about this very topic.

 

It was interesting to note their take on this.  While some companies are currently using this process (GE "General Electric" is using this method to produce fuel nozzles for aircraft engines made of titanium) those machines cost approx. 1 million US.

 

Medical science has created a "biological" ear and other medical testing is underway using special inks. (again, very expensive).

 

However, home production of highly detailed parts (no explanation was given of the term highly detailed) is NOT deemed likely.  The home machines are not expected to have the resolution needed.  

 

I'm NOT saying Nat Geo is correct, just another viewpoint I read just yesterday.

[JPZ66]

Pops,

 

Yes..two things to note in the article and wish they would provide the standard or definition of... Highly detailed and Affordable....

 

The reson that sticks out, is that it is very subjective....

 

Based on all of the models and types that I have looked at so far.... Yes, currently, high resolution equals greater cost. I think it will be a little while before there are any really good hi-res printers for under$ 1500 dollars. One issue is speed...everybody wants it 'now'....most makers of printers who are focusing on low priced, easy to use machines are really pushing the speed. Interestingly enough, if you take some of these units and slow them down, tweak the settings and use the best available filaments, you can actually get some pretty nice looking prints.

 

On the other hand, again based on what you can get right now.... There are specifically two SLA machines that I am aware of, one priced at around $ 3000 and one priced at around $ 4500 that can do some pretty tight printing. Any and all of these (FDM or SLA) prints will require post finishing to some degree if you want absolutely smooth finished parts. The good news is that a number of printer manufacturers are working to make resolution even better for the lower priced units.

 

I have seen so many articles over the past year, that are quite frankly, very poorly written...mainly due to the fact, that many of these reporters have not done their homework, have not checked the facts and seldom report actual specs. I have been researching these and looking for the specs and the parameters under which they got those results.

 

My angle is a bit different as well. I am not looking for a machine to make party favors and iPhone holders or the latest cartoon character on. I am not looking for the neatest new gadget to impress my friends with. I am looking for the machine that will perform and be viable as a tool to streamline production and increase the quality of parts and pieces for my small business. As such, I am willing to spend a little more, though I certainly don't have 50k to invest at this time. However, something in the $3000-$5000 dollar range is perfectly acceptable to me. I like the fact that I can print with castable resins. This means That with minimal clean up on a print, I can go right to investment molding and produce the cast metal parts I'm looking for. The current machines CAN produce highly complex and accurate models much faster than I can do by hand. Many of these designs cannot even be accomplished on CNC mills in one piece as you can do with 3d printing.

 

Btw- you have to have print files, obviously, to make something....and even this area has jumped ahead tremendously. 3d modeling is different than traditional engineering, and software makers have made things easier. You no longer have to be a CAD master to create what you need. - But that is a topic unto itself, and I won't go into it here.

 

In the end, it is incumbent upon the purchaser to decide what they need, what they want and what they can afford. Up until very recently, I have not seen a printer in my price range that could do what I wanted. I think that has now changed.

 

Joe

[Patrick Matthews]

Sorry that I didn't find this thread earlier. A few quick comments:

 

1. If you want to make a wooden model of a wooden ship, that's perfect, and don't let 3DP annoy you at all. Do what YOU want to do. But do avoid being a wood-ship chauvinist! Not all ships, nor their models, nor their MODELERS, are age-of-sail-ers, and not all of such parts are best whittled from sticks.

 

2. If you DO want to use 3DP, "too old" is no excuse! I'm pushing retirement age myself.

 

3. For the time being, DON'T waste time and money on any "affordable" desktop printer... the machines that can do work suitable for decent models have many many zeroes in their price tags. Go to a shop like Shapeways instead, let them take the depreciation on their capital investment.

 

 

BTW, here is my latest 3DP model, PT-61 (a late Elco 77 footer). In 1:24 scale, it's large enough for R/C, but this copy is for display only. The hull is wood, because sometimes wood just makes sense! (PT hulls are quite easy to build up with dual-diagonal planking).  But virtually everything else is printed, from the cabin to the weapons, and even the window glazing. 

 

Kurt likes to remind us that "if you have to hurry, it ain't a hobby". Well I had to hurry, as this was a commission, and tools like 3DP helped a lot. From the first laser cut frames to the final photos: 4 months. 

 

 

Pat M

Edited November 29, 2014 by Pat Matthews

[jburchfield1@wowway.com]

The detail is amazing!

[fletch944t]

Pat, just out of curiosity, what 3D printer do you use? Or do you farm everything out to Shapeways?

 

And, by the way, that is a truly amazing model. Beautiful work.

 

Fletch

Edited November 30, 2014 by fletch944t

[Patrick Matthews]

Fletch, thanks! And see my comment above about desktop printers...  I don't own a printer and likely never will; my parts all come from places like Shapeways. 

[fletch944t]

Hi Pat. I wasn't sure if you had possibly farmed everything out when you first got started and might now be doing your own stuff. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Based on what you've had them do, I have no doubt that anything I would send their way would be a piece of cake for them.

 

How much re-work have you had them do because something didn't turn out as planned?

 

Fletch

[Patrick Matthews]

I design in 3D with all the parts in context of one another... so not too many oopses get past that stage for me to correct later. But the best laid plans... let's just say that every build is full of learning opportunities!

[GuntherMT]

Do you have links to other suppliers than Shapeways?  I've read of people having issues with delivery from Shapeways, and I'm wondering who you are using and whether you were happy with their service.

[Patrick Matthews]

I've used iMaterialise, but don't care for their near exclusive use of stereolithography for detailed parts... the process leaves little nibs all over, from the support structure made of parent material.

 

I've had very few delivery issues with SW, other than their tendency to jam delicate parts into stiff poly bags...

Edited November 30, 2014 by Pat Matthews

[md1400cs]

In two years they will be MUCH better and MUCH cheaper

 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NA00MWS?ref=x_disp_44_96_1_3

 

It will be interesting to see how some of our members apply this to part of their builds

 

Cheers,

 

MIchael

 

PS this might also fit under Nautical General Discussion ?!

Edited December 1, 2014 by md1400cs

[mtaylor]

There's a couple of 3D printer topics going on.. one Tools and the other in CAD area.  Both are very informative on this topic.

[md1400cs]

Mark,

 

Thanks.....

[skipper1947]

Just curious if anybody has seen this method of 3D printing? Almost creepy looking.

https://www.facebook.com/ScienceMagazine/videos/10153232278600589/?pnref=story

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3TgmvV2ElQ

Edited June 13, 2015 by skipper1947

[WackoWolf]

Cool. Thanks for the links.

[mtaylor]

Just curious if anybody has seen this method of 3D printing? Almost creepy looking.

https://www.facebook.com/ScienceMagazine/videos/10153232278600589/?pnref=story

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3TgmvV2ElQ

 

I saw something like that quite a few years ago.  The talk then was for prosthetic body parts such as parts for the skull that had be damaged.  I looks like things have moved further on in the 3D printing world.