Marcus.K.

Concering the meaning of "quarters" .. I found this interesting little summary: Source: https://www.dailywritingtips.com/the-many-meanings-of-quarter/ First idea: does McHenry mean with Quarters : "left and right" .. in the meaning of "west and east" .. but that´s may too thin soup.. Second idea: the therm "Quarter" seems in ships to be refered to the "sides of the stern". ... Well, why that? Why would the SIDE of the stern be a quarter? .. Maybe because this is the classical area where the officiers and captains had their "quarters", their cabins? Then McHenry´s remark would really fit with Basses positioning of the two ladies. While I struggled with that postion - thinking the quarters are the stern side of the quarter galleries. By now I learned that - yes - there are quarter GALLERIES - but they are mounted to the Quarters as it seems! So the ladies sketched so nice by Billy Bass are exactly where the cabins of the captain and the commodore (or first officer) would have been - left and right of the after cabin. Well not exactly maybe in the case of our big frigates. The deck plan of US Frigate United States shows the cabins being at the sides - but not being connected to the stern. That was remaining only for the after cabin which was the common cabin for captain and squadrons commodore - if on board - or first officer if no commodore was on board. If someone wonders why I do such thinking: I learned by now that very often we misinterpret things because we "think" we know the meaning. But very often - especially in historical or in special fields the modern understanding of things may differ - and even in old time, meaning did change sometimes and we are not aware of all possible meanings.

Dear Ladies, Gentlemen, I have a question to the community. Since I am too far away and will not (at least not in next future) be able to examinate the beautiful Corné-Paintings.. So to everyone who had a chance to see them: Can you pls. tell me, if you look / had a look the real paintings: ARE THERE MORE THAN 2 PERSONS/FIGURES on that Corné-Stern visible? I know - there are 2 Paintings by Corné about that "siege of Tripolis": a wide one, painted in 1805 ordered and accepted by Cmd. Preble - who needed to show his action to the pubic since there was so much interest in the deeds of the new hero: And there is the smaller one, done in 1807 - in which according to William Bass in his above mentioned book - the ships, being arranged much more close to each other - are painted in about 5:4 size compared to the very first picture. I was trying to find out where which painting is right now represented to the public ... but I can right now not recollect my findings. Does someone of you know? I tried to see in a zoomed copy of the 1807 painting - but its hard to tell: William Bass saw there the 2 Figures - representing Justice and Freedom - as described by Secretary of War, James McHenry in a paper defining the intended Stern decoration of all six frigates "the stern of all six original frigates "should be all alike to show they belong to one family and represented by an Eagle in the center with constellations around him, suported on each Quarter by the figures of Liberty and Justice" - found in M. V. Brewingeons book: Shipcarvers of North America. William Basses reconstuction is reprinted in K.-H. Marquardts AotS "Constitution": see the top right represenation I guess, Bass arranged the two mentioned ladies between the cabins windows and the "windows" at the stern side of the galleries.. since that may best fit to the statement: ".. supported on each quarter ..". But I wondered: does that position really fit to the statement? Is with "quarter" really the area of the quartergalleries meant? I would think a "support" is much better done by that two ladies directly left and right of the center figure (the presumed eagle). ARE those two big ladies (which Bass did cut their arms) at "the quarter"? And even if: who may then be the two ladies which are at the edge of the gallery looking outwards? Tyrone Martin saw there crossed cannons and balls above the eagle. Does anyone have seen evidence for such interpretation in the real painting? The Eagle: I found the following description of the United States Seal - and I think one can see that scroll (in white) swung right and left side of the eagles head ... Source: https://statesymbolsusa.org/symbol-official-item/national-us/state-seal/united-states-seal I think this seal of 1782 would represent pretty good, what I would expect on the ships stern: Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States I see in that round area in the center top that mentioned cloud .. so that the eagles head and the scroll must be below .. and that is where I see that white serpentine line .. So to summarize: Would you be able to help me understanding what is REALLY visible in the two paintings by Corné? Anyone who had a chance to really SEE these drawings? I know that @Force9 had done pictures - but the copy he kindly did send to me is not as clear as that online-zoom you see in the beginning of this post. So do you see the figures, where Bass saw them? Are there cherubs outside of those two "minor" sitting ladies next to the eagle? Are there sitting ladies next to that eagle? Did someone see cannons and balls on top of the eagle? Are the big blotches between the galleries stern windows REALLY figures ? I am curious to hear your opinion and know-how in this.

1. Constitution - Superfrigate of the many Faces - A tribute to the Basses Years ago I got this nice book by William Bass and his wife in which they describe their findings and their reconstruction of US Frigate Constitutions "Second Phase" as they called it. The years after launch and Quasi War with France - and before the War 1812 - the times of Preble and the Barbary War. Since I saw this beautiful book which was published privatly and therefor did not get the audience it deserves, I did fall in love with this beautiful ship! The Basses based their reconstruction mainly on Felice Corné´s paintings done in 1803 (Side view) 1805 (?) and 1807 (Battle of Tripolis). This one for shure you all know very well. Its - as far as we know by today - the very first visual description of Old Ironsides - done by Felice Corné in Summer 1803 most likely. The Basses did brief investigations even on which viewing angle the artist must have had for his sketches and they could prove that Corné did do really intensive studies of his object. But isn´t the ship a beauty here? Ochre gun strike, no bulkward on foredeck, single dolphin striker, open galion and - that impressive Hercules. Nevertheless, as we will see later: this interpretation causes headaches (at least in my little brain). Here now one of the Tripolis Paintings: Source: https://www.mainememory.net/artifact/6155 You can increase the image if you click on the picture on the Maine Historical Societies Homepage (link). Look at that beautiful lines, the two yellow stripes above the gun deck - and note the position of the channels on the lower of those lines: and here the beautiful Stern of the ship in its early phase: She was a beauty in ochre and black, some white, yellow and maybe a bit gold? .. and a thrilling sight with all that guns! In my eyes the ships earlier appearance is of much more grace and elegance than in her later designs. Fortunatly the real ship is getting closer and closer to that design again with the restorations since Tyrone Martin started that process. But maybe the most beautiful sight she must have been as she was planned: with complete open bulkwards - just as Humphrey intented her to be: Nevertheless: my plan is to rework and pimp the beautiful Revell kit which is ment to show her 1812-15 configuration - but which has some "errors" in it and which does not totally fit to her 1803 appearance. And this 1803-4 appearance - before leaving to the Mediterean Sea - that is my goal. I imagine by now a situation in which the ship is about to be fitted out for sea - maybe some weeks before the above shown departure of the ship takes place. Still with only long guns on the quarder deck... This build will be the very first for me since about 35 years. I was doing a Cutty Sark 1/144 (without proper rigging and bad painting) and a very nice Spanish Men of War in 1/72 - this time with Revell instructed but fully rigging (boy was I proud !) .. So I need to re-learn during the build all the needed techniques. Oh, I was mistaken: I started some years ago the build of the Revell Charles W. Morgan - but the "rush hour of life" did stop that efforts. Now, in times of Corona and possible loss of job I believe I need a time out for some hours a week from crazy daily hectic .. and "if not now, then when?" shall I start with this beauty. I hope you join me in my efforts and I am open for any advice and hint. Thanks for watching me.

Very interesting discussion! Thanks for that, gentlemen. Does anyone know when that habbit to store the hammocks on the bulkwards top started? Are there any hints in texts, paintings or models? .. and if: especially for American Navy?

In my humble opinion: the very best source with lowest chance for historical mistakes are all the books of Cmd. Tyrone Martin who was the ships commanding captain during her 1970ies refits and who started his own research. His books are based on decates of investigation and research. He regulary reworks his books and did eliminate previously done mistakes. "A most fortunate ship" being the best known and his bestseller. His other books had to be published in a less professional manner .. which is sad. They deserve a wider publicity! T. Martin was (is?) selling a ringbinder he named "A Close up". I got a version and its full with information - mostly chronolocical statements out of logs concerning the ships appearance or outfitting - all of them sorted by subject (decks, guns, etc.). Very good primary sources! But of course written only and with room for interpretation.. He too added some copies of drawings and sketches. Unfortunatly when I recieved my version the copy-quality was not as good as today´s internet source are sometimes. But.. you can find many of those graphical information by now in internet if you know what to look for. I am not sure if it is still available... pls. Check his page "captains ckerk" http://captainsclerk.info/ By the way: this page is also a great source for information as it presents parts of what is written in the Close Up or in his books. A wonderful book to read if you are interested in the life on board: Martin, Tyrone G. "The Constitution's Finest Fight, 1815." Its the written report of a crew member in 1815. William Bass' wonderful book "USS Constitution - Superfrigate of the many faces" too had to be published private. Its a nice research about the ships appearance in about 1803, based on inspection of the early Felice Corne paintings. He did have discussions with T. Martin and I think it is a very interesting work and very helpful if you are intersted in the ships earlier and very nice appearance. But as mentioned above: hard to find. Then there is Olof Eriksens "All sails up and flying" - a wonderful study of the rigging in 1814 based on the Isaac Hull Model ins PEM in Salem, the oldest known model done by crewmembers and presented to Captain Hull in 1812. He did compare Bradys Handbook for midshipmens with notes by a real mifshipman of Old Ironsides he recieved by Cmd. Martin and did tryouts on his huge model to find the most likely solutions. He too, as Mr. Bass, had exchanged information with T. Martin and later recomments this book too .. although its a bit hard to "read" (Mr. Eriksen loves repetitions). But the drawings will be a perfect guideline for the rigging. Those books and collections deserve much more publicity and also a more professional publishing. To my surprise even T. Martin could only publish some of his books with a classical publisher. W. Bass had to print his book in private and therefore there are not many available. Eriksens book is much too small. He provides dozens of drawings which for themself would require a wider format. But I learned the publisher wasn´t willing to invest in that. Brady´s "the Kedge Anchor" is a kind of a primary source. Its a "handbook" for Midshipmen and describes important features and processes on a ship of that age. Usually you will find editions from after the 1840s or reprints of those time. .and of course things have changed from 1800, 1812 to the 1840´s. But: I would guess about 95% was still the same - and therefore you can´t be much wrong. Brady describes the American way of marine issues. Don´t follow Steel and Lever as they describe the British Fashion. Eriksen did a comparision about different rigging styles and compared them with the Isaac Hull Model - and his finding is: Constitution was rigged - what a surprise - in American style! Marquardt by the way did drawings based on British. Of course: I would guess about 85-90% is very compareable and only experts in the field of rigging would notice the difference.. so it depends on whom do you want to impress .. or what do you expect from yourself. All those books should come in a classical leather binder with golden letters on them. All of them are really interesting and valuable for modelist and enthusiats. Gillmers nice book "Old Ironsides - raise, decline ..." is also very interesting, but I believe, Mr. Martin mentioned that there are mistakes, and also I believe he did not much like parts of the ships restoration done with Mr. Gillmers help. The art of Gilkerson inside the book is of course really beatiful and a lot of information in the book is worth reading it. A. Tolls "Six frigates" is a very nice reading about the ships background history and destroys a lot of glorification and myths around many contributer of the ship. Mr. Martin onced explained to me it would be full of historical mistakes, but he admitted: its a good reading. K.H. Marquardts AotS book "the 44-gun Frigate USS Constitution" is of course also a beautiful and professional published collection of drawings and information. Unfortunatly it seems to be done in a hurry since the author obviously did not refer to the - I have to admit: sometimes disputed - Isaac Hull model. He also seems to not look too precisly into the ships hull´s design - since his design is very much influenced by british or european ship building tradtions. Also his rigging is not american style. His reconstructions of the ships stern in different times I very much doubt. He is in fact a respected expert in design, function and history of ships of Age of Sail - but this book is not his masterpiece I think. It is very good to be inspired and fascinated - but be careful to take over details. I have seen and read many others.. there are of coures more nice books out there ... I did not yet mention Howard Chappelles works. They are by now "classics" .. but in this is the danger. They are old by now - and just because something was new and sensational some years ago it must not be true: I learned to start mistrusting the "capacities" and "authorities" - since they often begin to ignore new findings and stop progress by the weight of their expertise. Nevertheless: his books are remarkable sources of know how about the American Navy´s.. Those are my main books as source for the ships design. You may notice that I am a "fan" of Tyrone Martin - although I believe he too may have wrong understanding in this and that. I had the luck to have - years ago - a nice converstion via several emails with him. I have the impression that his studies have been really gone deep over a professional life span now - and he has gained the best overview about all issues concerning the ships design and history. Since in my understanding many questions will not been answered with certainty - so its best to try to have the best "statistically" answers. Having - if not proof - then at least a good evidence by comparing several independ sources. Primary sources are best of course - and Cmd. Martin did his lessons. I guess there are only a few persons in the world who may have read as much primary source about Old Ironsides as Cmd. Martin. .. if at all. Thats why I try to study beside the books - photos of the Isaac Hull Model in PEM Salem MA for the ships appearance in 1812 - paintings by Felice Corne (1803 side view, 1804 Tripolis and the 1812 battle paintings) - paintings and engravings of Roux or Baugean and others about US Frigate President and United States - NMM drawings of US Frigate President (as they are available in Internet) - deck plans of US Frigate United States by .. was it Ware? - the USS Constitutions Museums Blog - many, many photo´s and pictures in internet.. Hope this is helpful and wish you a lot of fun with that beautiful and impressive subject "Old Ironsides".

Ahoy there, whats up, doc? Last night I was re-reading this wonderful log... and tonight I re-checked my conversations I had with many experienced people... one of them Cmd Tyrone Martin who was so nice to share some lines. I forgot so much. But this here reminded me on your build, @Force9so I have to share it: [Quote] When at sea, the only anchors to be seen topside were the stream and sheet anchors stowed out board of hull near amidships. Both bower anchors were taken in (and usually broken down) for stowage on deck, often on the gun deck benath the boat towage. The anchor cables were all struck below. The hawse holes in the bows were covered with "bucklers," covers that were held in place by plugs that extended inboard and had strongbacks extending to either side of the inner edges of the holes to insure they stayed in place.[/quote] T. Martin in an email. Seems your anchor is stored correct, Sir! Hope you are all doing well in these crazy times.

Ahooy there! What´s up, Doc? thrilling news from Constitutions Log lines - engravings of early US Frigate United States found - go and see: https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/06/14/federal-frigate-early-views-united-states/ Have fun! But as usually: engravings and paintings have to be "read" with care. They are no photos. Their purpose is not to show the "real" thing 100% accurate. As I pointed out in my comment I doubt that Thomas Clarke was able to see the ship in fully rigging before he had to finalize his edgeing. Also the 16 guns per side - not really realistic? On the other hand: would an Artist be THAT inaccurate? With the most important issue of a war-ship - its armament? Where is the dolphin striker? I am curious about your thinking ...

Hey ho, this Looks really nice! .. I would like to know: how do you work with this "copper" you had? Did you have to scrap off what was on the wooden side above the water line? Or did you have to repaint over it? An idea: why not "covering" the black area behind the captains cabin with an additional grating .. the helmsman usually stand on a grating .. if you would just "enlarge" the existing one, you could cover this area.

Those Pictures are really interesting. Especially the "name-board" on the left one. It seems to be a short "board" mounted on t-shaped steel work. This is helpful for me, since my "wrecked" e-bay-prize lost it´s name boards completley. And since they are bended in the front area a bit it would be hard to re-generate them. The "steel-work" is something which seems to be easier to imitate. Also interesting: the ugly "Nanny" .. Her painting is so ... I was learning that she lost her head and left arm in 19xx .. but it seems, the rest of her was original until she got a new one in 1957? The "old" one was found in her hold in the 1970s? Does anyone know more about the figure´s history?

Is this painting in post #110 referring to a giant monster wave CS experienced in real life? I was reading somewhere about the "fact", that she was one of the first reporting about freak waves. Does anybody know more about this story?

Hey Rob, I am fully with you. THIS is the real adventure of those ships. Their capability to stand and sail in really heavy weather / sea ! That´s what catched my attention to those ships. Its another kind of "fight" .. without cannons .. but with the same daring and the same steel men .. A bit lake the whalers - which also caught my attention. Very much like your wafe!

Hello Rob, what an interresting build - what a fantastic result you got. When I won the bidding for a wrecked Cutty Sark 1/96 weeks ago for cheap money I started my little research on the ship. Soon I found some pictures of the pity status of old Ferreira. And instandly there was the wish to rebuild the dismasted model I got in exactly THAT way. Today I reopend the box of the model I got via e-bay - what a desaster ! The former builder did finish the ship and then it must have been hit by something hard ! Every mast was broken, the hole rigging was one big pile of broken masts, spars, sails and rope. Seemed like a fully broadside which dismasted the ship to a total wreck. The former builder wasn´t bad .. But some mistakes have béen done in rigging in usage of sails, in colouring the hull. I just did cut away all the rigging which was really smashed. Masts broken several times. Spars broken too. I think I can not use any of it. So maybe its even a more practical way to re-rigg her as a Brigantine. But what a huge model this 1/96 kit is! Rob, where did you got the idea for that oven ? Do you have more photos of the ship? What would you (or others?) recommend as researching sources - which books? I did not like Clippers in my youth.. the hull too much like modern steamers, the sails of tea ship clippers ridiculous much ! ... in my eye. But the more I read the more I am fascinated by those hard working and heavy hunting ships down in the roaring 40s! What adventures .. what a hard life,.. the risk, the speed, what a stress for ship and men! Are you still working on the model? I saw different Posts in different Forums .. I hope you are still finishing here and give us some photos.

Wow - THAT is a very impressive and educational build ! I´ll follow you with highest interest ...

Hallo Evan, I finally found the pages. Thanks. And there is the sketch which inspired you. Its on page 170. Edit: see last line (Compared with the British plans of USS President I think the hornlike thing is not visible.) in brackets is wrong ! see last line Edit-ende. Chappell states he has his point of view because of so many correspondence indicating the early use of the round headed rudder and that its in use since about 1801. He shows this horn in nearly all drawings. That its not visible in NMM plans is no prove that it wasn't there. Maybe this tiny detail was not of importance ...? What I want to point out for you : look at the number of the metal fixations of the rudder in President's NMM plan. Seems to be more... Strange: it seems I can not paste copied text or links... only my problem? Edit: just looked into my Canney for the british lines of President and have to admit : I was wrong. The horn is visible there too - very clearly.

Hy Matt, well, I do not believe that a "poor biomedical engineer" with two doctor degrees and having a 40 years experience in building air plane models is not able to brag just as the rest of us may do C´mon - its so easy ! Your Project sounds VERRRYY interesting to me. I am very much interested in this time period - and I am looking for any possible model kit which is available for future builds ... If you start a building log I would instantly volonteer to become observer - and where I can I will help of course - although most of my readings was about Constitution.

I do not believe you Well, the thing is described in Evan´s post #107 on page 6 of this building log. Evan did a complete new rudder blade with its rudder post - since he compared the USS Presidents drawings with what he found on the Revell kit. Marquardt - the author of the Anatomy of the Ship book "Constitution" mentioned the use of Snoddgrass-rudders - with a round rudder head - for later. Chapelle somewhere seems to have hinted out, that the Snoddgrass-rudders have been used earlier in the US Navy. The difference? The former shape of the rudder post - which connects the rudder with the rudder head (and the pillar (right word?)) was squared or at least rectangular in cross section view. Maybe because its easier to create, maybe because it wasn´t even in the centerline of the hinges .. But the effect in any case: the "hole" for that post in the stern had to be wider than it had to be for an aligned and round rudder post. Mr. Gabriel Snoddgrass seems to have "invented" the round rudderpost / rudder head - and therefore optimized the needed size of the hole which is needed to open for that piece of wood. By the way: I refound the article - and was wrong. It describes that a Mr. Hookey claimed to have invented the round rudder head - but the author states, that this Invention was done by G. Snoddgrass and was used in merchantmen since years. For some reason I do not understand I can not copy a link from this Google-book-article to here .. If you Google for "round rudder head Snoddgrass" you will find a link to a "mechanics Magazin, volume 8" .. and there it is. Look in Evans post #107 - you will see the difference in pictures. Its another proof of Evans fine nose to detect and point on interesting details which are commonly not looked at.

http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Shipbuilding/NC-5(1801)_p129.html Good old Gabriel Snoddergrass was very confident about his improvments on East Indiamen. A very interesting person I think. Gabriel did not only invent the rounded rudder head but also used much more iron in the ships skelelton and also modified dimensions for his ships. He seemed to be very proud about his success - but its interesting that it seemed to him he needs to push admiraltity make use of his findings. Also interesting: he seem to have "invented" the process of not closing the holes of the outer and inner planks done for the treenails - until the very latest moment ... to give the ships hull another more time to "breath" ... But in an other article I saw this afternoon (have to refind it) someone else did claim to be the inventor of rounded rudderheads .. So copyright was also in former times a problem. ... or as so often: the time was right for the next step - and maybe different people noticed that in about the same time ..?

I did not notice this very interesting information ! Thanks a lot for showing here - and thanks also to all who help publishing this interesting notes ! Why did nobody until now digged out Humphreys YouTube-video-blog during design and building the big frigates .. but this is probably the closest we can get.

Hy Evans I very much enjoy to read back and forth in your wounderful report here ... Where did you get all that information from concerning the Snodgrass Rudder? I found of course Marquardts remark, but Chapelles is from where? Anyway, while showing the 1803 Cornè (your avatar) to my son, to explain him some of my ideas I accidently picked a zoom onto the rudder and there it was : the hornlike USS Presidents detail ! Thanks for finding such beautiful tiny details, Evans - its such a fun !

Wow that´s amazing! But will you keep both Labels. That way she will lay all her life "clambed" in between those white "icebergs" to lar- and starboard?? Anyway - at least these are not labels of that satanic perdition called "RUM" so many sailors ruined their bodies and souls with ....

wow - I am fascinated following this interesting "little" project. A really phantastic bottle-ship, very well presented. Looking forward to see it in place!

Hello Evans, have not been here for a very long time! Beautiful progress!!! .. and wonderful paintings in the Museum you shared with us. Thanks for that! Would you tell us which kind (seize) of eyebolts you used? .. and the deadeyes - from which company are those? They look really phantastic ! Of course I very much like your approach with the rigging. Is the block visible on the Hull Model also used by Erkisson?

Hello Evans, I have one question: what is the book below Chapelles History of American sailing navy?

Permission granted to come aboard, Sir? Looking forward to see more ...

Another build, I want to follow. Good luck and have fun!