Chuck Seiler
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Oh my!!!! The Chicago area has 3 mighty fine clubs. We need to get you connected. Kurt Van Dahm, who is doing the SIS article, is a member of one of them. A cradle to hold the Dremel or the model? -
This kit building group is a rough crowd. If you dawdle for a few days you drop down to page 10 and get a vagrancy citation. I have been semi productive, but not in any particular order. I have doing some more research, scoping out nail patterns and stuff. Mostly I have been working on my non-kit modifications and some planking. While I have not been posting, I have been IMing with Steve. Starting tonight, I will be getting my ducks in one sock so I can post progress pretty close to the order it is outlined in the instructions. Kurt V. D. has a new article out in "Ships in Scale" if you have not yet seen it.
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Mark, Welcome to MSW and welcome to the Philly build. I see you are from Chicago. Are you associated with any of the Chicago ship model clubs and do you know Kurt Van Dahm? He is doing a series of articles in "Ships in Scale" about building the PHILADELPHIA. Looking at your tool selection, the only thing I would add is a Dremel (for now). I use it mostly for the drills and drum sander, but also other things from time to time. The pricier stuff comes later.
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Kurt, Lookin' good!!!! What size blocks did you use for the guns? As I recall, the plans call for 10MM. The largest Chuck makes is 9MM, but he didn't have them in stock at the time of my last order. I may go with the 9s. Glutton for punishment? Isn't that part of the job description?
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I had the opportunity to take a good look at Dave Yotter's 1:16 Philly. He is making it from the Smithsonian plans, with a ll the framing and planking per the original. Unfortunately I did not have my camera for pics. He said he would send me some. Dave nailed all the planks,much as Bear did, using the formula outlined n BRATTEN (which I will attempt to extrapolate). I would have thought that all those dots would have been distracting, but they were not. I hope to have some pics soon.
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Progress continues. I have installed all frames except 1...#12. As indicated earlier, from what I have read and from what I see in the virtual 3D Philadelphia, I perceive the bulkhead at the back end of the forward platform to be nor solid. Instead it is open and is sort of a crawl space under the forward platform where supplies and firewood can be stored. This means most of frame 12 must be cut away Here we see frame 12 altered. Floor beam and side frames exist. Deck beam is being fitted. Here is some planking progress that is still a bit rough. I will need to smooth it up, but I waned to get in into the log. A- The forward end of the midships platform is planked. I will eventually o this to both bulkheads in the aft cockpit as well. B- Forward cockpit planking continues past frame 12 and on to frame 13. I will eventually put stuff here so you cannot see too deeply into the hold. C- I added a little nub aft of the mast slot. This was/is not on the real ship, however I had alot of trouble with the eyebolt/block assembly at this location in my previous build.
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Keith,. Do you have any pictures? I am intrigued. Start a build log and post some. I know that you are already complete, but this will allow you to post your pics without using somebody else's log. Which 2 books?
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Steve, That looks good. Did you use pencil for the 'tween plank caulking? I am running a bit behind. As I think I previously mentioned, I believe the bulkhead at the back of the forward platform (in this case, frame 12) was not solid...but in fact open to permit crawlspace type access. I am having some setbacks. :-( I hope to have some pics by tonight.
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More on nails and nail patterns. As I mentioned above, I will put together a piece on what the nail patterns were based on BRATTEN. However, here is a clarification of a previous post. Here is the previous picture of PHILLY with some of the nail positions outlined in white.
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Mark, Chapter 8 of the dissertation Bart linked to in post 101 is almost the same as chapter 7 of the book. I will compare the two later this weekend, but reading the book I see that in some cases the number of nails or treenails are given precisely and others estimated. From my readings it appears to be a case of "nail the crap out if it, where ever needed" as opposed to any particular formular. I kind of glossed over that section (construction) when I built the first time because it was alot of stuff at once. As I look at it again, I am finding alot of good stuff and since I plan on more detail, it helps alot. I was incorrect in saying there were 32 frames, there were actually 39. Since we don't plan on nailing until later, my plan is to go thru the book chapter 7 and come up with the specific nailing numbers for each section. He divides it into lower (underside) planking, interior floor (ceiling) planking, interior side (ceiling) planking, exterior planking, the wale, deck platform planking. Should I present this as a post or as an enclosure to a post? Kurt, do I get my NRG "research ninja pin" for this? POST SCRIPT. Different designs/different builders? Eh? More like an organized cluster-goatrope. If you read the early chapters of the dissertation you get a feel for what they had to do to get these things into the air...er ah onto the water. 8 gunboats and 4 row galleys over a couple months time in the backwoods of nowhere using prety much green wood, with an unknown number of carpenters and shipwrights coming and going based on a design that nobody knew. Apparently Arnold wanted the gunboats to be like the ones on the Delaware. Nobody knew what those looked like. However, they had been building bateauxs on the lake for decades. The gunboats appear to be based on those designs with the frames massed produced. The boats were slapped together in three weeks, with pieces dissembled later in order to place armament and other items once the boats got to fort Ticondaroga for fitting out.
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That is John Bratten's dissertation (doctoral dissertation perhaps?) on the wreck. While not word for word, it appears to be the basis of the book I cited. This was dated 1997 whereas the book was published in 2002. With the exception of a few flourishes, I suspect the info is the same. Good find Bart!!! I did not recall the part about the floorboards being connected with trunnels. I will have to re-read that. My recollection was of the replica using trunnels and my thought at the time was that they expect the replica to last more than 2 months. There is evidence (as cited in the dissertation and book) that they actually installed one of the mortars in PHILADELPHIA and it exploded while testing there-on. The other blew up upon testing as well. He says there were square openings in the inner planking indicating where the mortar may have been mounted (on the aft platform), but the Model Expo plans do not show that detail. Another "Oh crap" moment from the book. When they went to mount th eforward 12 pounder, the stem was inthe way and had to be cut down. Ooops!
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I was thinking of taking a stab at Ed Tosti's method of using mono-filiment...probably grey, if available. However, given the number of nails, this would be overwhelming. I figured the number at one point. I don't remember what that was but it falls into the category of "butt-load". To answer Steve's question on his log...Each plank is nailed at each frame-1 nail for every 4 or 6 inches of width(I would have to recalculate). Remember, the kit only uses half the number of frames the real boat had, so plan accordingly. This gives you a rough idea what kind of measles infested beast it will look like. PS...All those little dimples are the nails.
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Over on Steve's log we were talking about nails. Based on observations of the actual hull and pieces-parts/artifacts outlined in John Bratten's book, the nails were no more than 1/2 wide. By my calculations that would be .02". At that scale, I don't think that the fact they are square makes any diff. We are discussing this now, with the plan that at some point we may or may not "nail" the hull. Out to the peanut gallery for thoughts/comments. Hey!! I made LCDR. It only took 28 years.
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Continuing on this thread, while we are here, by my calculation, 1/2 inch is .02". I don't have my caliper available, but my recollection of an .020 saw blade, this is about the size of a semi dull pencil point. What does the peanut gallery say? Continuing.
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Looking at " BRATTEN"* I see that, in addition to the nails in the hull itself, they recovered 18 assorted iron nails/spikes. All square. None over 1/2 width. I agree with Steve. I will tinker with this as I progress, but more pressing things await. * "The Gondola PHILADELPHIA & the Battle of Lake Champlain" by John R. Bratten
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Russ, Not in this case. They just whacked the nails into place and when on to the next. They weren't all that concerned with corrosion since they didn't expect the ships/gunboats to be around very long. Their goal was to get as many hulls into the water as they could. Counter sinking and plugging the nails took too long. As it was, IIRC they got the full compliment of gunboats completed and got all but one row galley completed in time. (It was completed but not fitted out in time for the battle.) As you see, the nails are relatively visible.
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I believe it was/is square, but at that scale, does it matter? Particularly if the nails are subdued enough? What are your recommendos?
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Dremal Power Tool
Chuck Seiler replied to Spiderpig's topic in Modeling tools and Workshop Equipment
That's the one. I have the next size up for my 770, but it screws into the head. It takes from #80 drill to 1/8" shank. -
Dremal Power Tool
Chuck Seiler replied to Spiderpig's topic in Modeling tools and Workshop Equipment
Bart, The chuck I am thinking of inserts into the dremel like a collet rather than screws into the head. -
Nails! Uhhhg!!!! I think I am going to use the underside to experiment with my nails. As previously discussed, there are ALOT of nails. It could become overwhelming fast if not careful. (Overwhelming both in terms of the work required as well as the visual effect.) I have seen alot of models that look like an outbrak of measles because the trunnels are too obvious. I used subdued pencil point dots on my scratch Philly, but that was 1/2 the scale of this one. I don't know if that will be TOO subdued or not. I was hoping to blow it off for awhile. What do you plan on using for 'nails'? ...and for those out ther not paying attention, they are actual iron nails, not trunnels.
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Ron, If it had/has masts it almost certainly has to have standing rigging. Looking at some pictures of it online shows me that it has set of shrouds for each mast and a fore stay. Probably more. Its a pretty simple rig, so there is not much there.
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A multi-legged mini table!!!!! Looks good. Time for fairing and planking.
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Bart, That's good to hear. Another Philly for all to see. Hopefully Steve wil post some more pics soon. :-)
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