Chuck Seiler

Agreed. My point was that you don't NEED those tools if you want to scratch build but don't have a shop full of tools. I functioned very well for many years with my Dremel, exacto and sanding block. One day I got a Byrnes saw and the world opened up for me. Since then I started scratch building. I have now purchased a disc sander and expect my model building experience will gt easier and models better. Some day I will get some other thingamajig when I see a need for it.

That depends on what you will be scratch building. I have been scratch building (although not necessarily scratch completing...but I digress) for years. The Byrnes saw and a handy Dremel are all the power tools I used. I was doing plank on bulkhead. If you plan on going plank on frame, using , say, the Hahn method or the Antscherl method, I think a scroll saw will be needed to cut out the frames.

Another option http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Drill-Chuck-Shank-Micro/dp/B001S00FYM/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1418837229&sr=8-29&keywords=dremel+micro

I was just browsing your log and found this...sorry for a belated response. I believe that the "Arrow" is a fictitious vessel. However, I think it is patterned after the gunboat "ALLEN". I have the kit (and still have not built it), so I was somewhat aware of the kit when I heard a presentation in 2001 or 2002 by Dr. Kevin Cristman from Texas A&M University on the "ALLEN" and it's recovery from Lake Champlain. In a side discussion he was talking to somebody about how the ALLEN and kit ARROW differed, but I don't recall the details...but it is close.

Mark, I think I am on the same page now. As the frame is sitting in the sled, the cut is 90 degrees from bottom to top, but the actual cut still needs to be eyeballed in order to conform with the line on the template. The cutline in the sled/zero clearance slit lines up with the intended cut line on the frame.

Does that answer the question? Not really. I understand how you get the 90 degree line on the template to begin with, but I don't understand how you get a good cut without just eyeballing it. As I see it, because the futtocks are curved, you may not (probably won't) get a true right angle cut if you brace the futtock on the back wall of the sled. DO you have a pic of how the futtocks sit in the sled?

Bob, Good luck with that snow stuff. You are gone for a month and the Guild goes to crap and our meetings are getting cancelled. COME BACK!!!!! Anywho, I look forward to HK getting back on track.

Mark, When you are cutting your butt ends/join ends, what are you using as reference plane? Obviously you are using the line on the plan, but since the frames are curved, how do you ensure the angle is true?

Planking progress continues. As previously reported, I am running some tests on nail patterns. I decided to go with black monofiliment line. I think I figured half inch nails would have been .020". I got close to that with .5MM (.0198"). My first test was on boxwood planking the same size (width) a on the model. On the primary width planks I went with the standard 4 nails and a couple spots with 3 nails. Using #76 drill bit, I made my holes, dipped the line end in Weldbond glue and inserted it into the holes. Some I snipped off immediately and some I let dry first. In all cases there was some glue residue and (more importantly) the nail head made the nail more noticeable than I wanted. After the rig had an hour t dry, I sanded don with very fine sand paper. Here it is again from a further distance. I am not wild about it. I think the nails are too prominent. I will stain the wood with pecan and see again. I will also insert nails in the other side after it is stained to see if there is any difference in appearance.

The 'looking worse in the photo' is actually a blessing. It reveals problems these old eyes miss and allow you to make corrections. When you get it to the point where it looks really good in the photo, it will look great with the naked eye.

John, Welcome aboard! That certainly falls into the "gee, if I only had a time machine and go back to look" category. I don't know if you had a chance to take a look at all of my scratch log. I go into to detail starting at a later post http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/5721-gunboat-philadelphia-by-chuck-seiler-scale-148-1776-scratch-from-ms-plans/?p=173370 and going on for several posts. Where you see it in the Smithsonian display is where it was found when the ship was raised. The way that it was raised left everything pretty much in tact...even little things that might normally get washed away were still on deck...like human teeth (eeuuyywww!!!). This means that is where it was when the ship sunk and where it was at the time of the battle. This is good evidence to indicate that is where it normally was. However, there is also evidence that it may have been used in the forward cockpit as well (charring on the underside of the mast partner). Because of cramped conditions and the hazards it created, actual use of the stove in the forward cockpit seems awkward as well. My approach? I put it in the cockpit in my scratch build. I may experiment with putting it on deck this time. To me, it seems like having it on deck during the battle would have been awkward and in the way...but there it was. Is it possible that it was normally stowed (and sometimes used) in the cockpit but in this case was on deck on the morning of 11 October, and they were unable to get it stowed in time? Who knows. You could put it in either location and be correct. The on deck location is probably MORE correct because we know it was there. The cockpit location is only speculation.

Steve, It does, indeed, take time. It is taking longer than I anticipated and I have done this before. ...but it is better to get it done right than it is to get it done fast. Extension? Yeah, I guess that is what you would call it. Just a piece of 1/16" boxwood under each area to even it out. For sanding I use a couple things. 1. A rubber sanding block. 2. Those spongy sanding sheets that curve. 3. Flexible spongy sanding sticks (that look like fat emory boards. I will include a pic when I get home.) The sanding block is just fine if you 'work the curve'.

A couple more thoughts: 1. I am at the point where I need to decide whether or not I want to show nails-all, some, none. I have some black mono filament that I will be using. My main concern is that the nailing overwhelms the model. I think t should be subtle. I will be doing some testing over the next few weeks. Will advise. 2. As I was looking ahead, I noticed the instruction does not cover assembly of the cook stove (at least I could not find it). The plan shows it. Parts are provided to build it. The instructions do not discuss it. I recommend you build it and install it BEFORE installing the mast partner.

Steve, Bottom is already planked. See http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/7451-continental-gunboat-philadelphia-by-chuck-seiler-model-shipways-124-scale-enhanced/?p=230292 The only underside yet to do is the piece under the stem and stern...and sand...and stain.

I wanted to take this opportunity to drill bolt holes in the wale for the main gun deck support knees. These were not shown in the model plans but were in the Smithsonian plans and the Yotter model. I originally had pencil dots, but they didn't show up.

Huzzah! I finally have the side planking done....for the starboard side. I would have posted pics sooner except I was using it for a Thanksgiving garnish tray. I am relatively happy with the result. There are areas that need work, but over all... It looks alot better in real life. The camera reveals alot of flaws. I think the plank joints with the stem looks good. I need to add some stock on the underside of the stem and stern pieces due to the underside planking I added. The sanding job in the area of the wale is less than great. It doesn't matter because I will be adding an additional layer there soon. While I had not planned it this way, the slight depression will help me place the extra layer. From the other end. I see some areas that need work. Close up of stern. Alot of sanding dust still there. I had originally wiped the model down with an alcohol soaked rag; enough to wipe the dust but not so much as to affect the glue joints. The alcohol evaporated quickly without raising the wood grain. One benefit was to reveal glue residue. While the glue evaporated quickly from the wood surface, it soaked into the glue residue on the wood surface. This made it very visible and easy to scrape off using a scalpel.

I believe the actual box part is wood, while the uprights and crossbar are iron.

Mark, Take a look here at my PHILLY 1 build log regarding the cook stove. http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/5721-gunboat-philadelphia-by-chuck-seiler-scale-148-1776-scratch-from-ms-plans/?p=169611 I recall a significantly larger volume of discussion regarding the making and coloring of the "bricks"...but I don't see them here. It gives you some idea of the color I used. Some of the bricks were made out of a wood called paduk. One of our Guild members had a small piece that he gave me. It certainly is not something I would run out and get. The other bricks were either boxwood or holly, colored with wood dye. I had experimented with various combinations of red and yellow dye; some mixed to form orange, some with red first followed by yellow (once dry) and some yellow follwed by red. I don't recall what I liked best, but it resulted in a varied group of bricks. I used white glue (Elmer's) with some white paint mixed in as mortar.

Mark, This is looking good!!! I know what you mean about taking notes. Building the model is easier than documenting the build. I agree with rigging the gun carriages and mounting them to the model without the guns. I did not do that on my PHILLY 1 build and I regretted it. Before you get too far, don't forget to build/mount the cook stove. As I was reviewing the instructions, I noted the cook stove construction was never mentioned. (oops!!!) It probably should be installed before the mast partner is installed, but I think it can be fitted in after...but before anything else is installed.

Forward platform decking and 12 pounder gun slide. Dave used Beech to plank his model. Beech is a very good scale oak. PHILADELPHIA was planked in white oak. Midships gun platform. He doesn't use as many nails per plank per frame here...not sure why. Note support knees-single bolt through hull and deck (each) with a nail at each end. The bolt through the side will pass thru the hull and be visible on the model exterior. I don't think the model has these, but I am adding them to mine and will discuss it as it arises. Note thole pins and bits on the cap rail. Aft cockpit. Aft platform, starboard arms locker, stern breast hook (not shown on model). Note square hole under the swivel gun. That was originally where the deck beam for the after platform ran. Arnold intended a mortar to be placed back there. After the mortar exploded during testing, the deck was lowered but the holes remained. The other holes are covered by the arms locker. Breast Hooks One breast hook of naturally-curved white oak was placed at each end of the vessel. Both are approximately 5-1/2 inches thick and positioned about half-way up the stem and stempost. The bow breast hook has an arm length of approximately 3 feet, while the opposite member spans a distance of 2 feet. (I think that means the one on the stern.) Forelock bolts were used to secure these timbers to the stem and sternpost and nails were used to fasten them to the ceiling. The model doesn't appear to have breast hooks. I am still thinking about whether I want to include them or not. Thought? Exposed floor beams, frames and deck support beams. Rocks were added under the after platform deck to add ballast to compensate for the mortar that was removed. Note: The deck support beams appear to follow side frames/knees rather than the floor beams.

While I continue with my hull planking, I am going to break from protocol here and post photos of somebody else model. Anguish not. I have asked permission from and received same from both the modeler Dave Yotter and site administrator Chuck Passaro. The primary purpose is to pictorially demonstrate the nail patterns (etc) for PHILLY in conjunction with the narrative from BRATTEN. It also demonstrates some building items from the original plans NOT incorporated into the kit. Finally, it lets you see some really fine craftsmanship up close. My thanks to Dave for these pictures. A note regarding my discussion of building measures and items from the original plans but NOT from the kit. I realize this is a beginner's level kit and may be the first or second model a reader may be working on. By including the information, I am not inferring that the builder SHOULD include these items, only that they COULD include them, or at the very least know about them. Organization: Where it makes sense, I will include the information quoted from BRATTEN, followed by the photo(s) that relate to the narrative, followed by my own comments. The BRATTEN narrative will be in one font. My comments, another. The full text of BRATTEN (with diagrams) can be found at: http://nautarch.tamu.edu/Theses/pdf-files/Bratten-PhD1997.pdf Exterior Planking. Philadelphia is planked with five 1-1/2-inch-thick white oak strakes. The lowermost strake is spiked directly to the outside edges of the bottom planking the latter had already been beveled flush with the outer face of the frames. Individual strakes are composed of three to four planks that butt each other on the center of a frame. The planks are fastened to every frame with a minimum of four iron nails. Strake ends were secured in their rabbets with seven or eight nails driven into the stem or stem posts. The edges of the planks were probably beveled to receive caulking material. Wale. Philadelphia has one rectangular wale 3 inches thick and 4-1/2 inches wide running directly below the sheer strake. On each side of the vessel the reinforcing member is made from two pieces of white oak fastened by a simple flat scarf over a span of four frames. The wale is attached to the vessel with one spike at every frame position. Three iron nails and one spike were used to secure the timber to the stem and stemposts. Hoffman notes that the l-inch-diameter bolts for the midship deck knees also pass through the wales. Reminder: The top strake is actually two strakes in the kit. Since kit-strake 1 is the same width as the wale, it would probably get 1 nail and the kit-strake 2 would get 3 nails. Basically 4 nails per plank per frame. Kit only has 16 frames while Philly had 39. I am putting a 'frame' between each of the kit frames except at the cockpits. They will have two extra. This will only give me 34 frames...close enough. It looks like the bottom strake is nailed evenly across the bottom. Ceiling Philadelphia has two types of internal planking or ceiling, side ceiling and what Hoffman refers to as flooring. After the keelson was installed. 1-1/2 inch thick ceiling was installed over the rectangular floor timbers in a fore-and aft-direction. Floor ceiling is white oak of varying width (10 to 18 inches). The planks closest to the centerline of the vessel butt against the keelson while the outboard planks are beveled to fit around the frames. The ceiling is attached to each floor timber with two or three iron nails. A well area, approximately 2 feet 5-1/2 inches by 1 foot, 9-1/2 inches was created in the stem (???) by cutting out a rectangular portion of the flooring on each side of floor timber twenty-five. Hoffman suggests that a bailing cover may have been present but was not recovered, presumably floating away when the vessel sank. Side ceiling was also fashioned from white oak, but 1/4 inch thinner than flooring. Four ceiling strakes of varying width (10 to 12 inches) are present on both sides of the vessel. The uppermost ceiling plank is placed at the same height as the corresponding external plank, effectively covering the frames up to their tops. The lowermost ceiling plank sits directly on the flooring. Side ceiling was secured with three nails at every frame position. The ends of every strake were beveled to butt against the stem and stem posts and are fastened to each post with seven or eight nails in staggered pattern. Floor and side ceiling plank nailing. Also noted is some deck planking and mast support knees.

Steve, You are quite welcome. I am happy to help. When I first started about 15 or 16 years ago, I remember a respected veteran builder (it may have been Ben Lankford) said it took him a day a plank...or maybe a strake. At the time I thought he was crazy...that's absurdly slow. Now I know better.

Basswood? I'm impressed. I am not happy working with basswood in many cases because it doesn't seem to hold a good edge and fuzzes easily. Your edges on the DRUID look very crisp. Do you prep it in any way?

Mark, What wood are you using for the frames?

I had some time off this weekend and had planned on doing alot of hull planking. It was 80 degree here yesterday and crappy weather has started to move it. I decided to spend some time outside while it is still summer....ooops sorry. My apologies to those getting snow. Here is a shot of the bow section after a little smoothing. I am happy with the hull, but not the photo. I tried several times to get a good, clear, closeup shot but was unable. I'll fire the photographer and see if I can get something better with good lighting. Same section previously...closer up....before smoothing.