Louie da fly

Oh, and regarding my quandary over whether to make the dromon single or two-masted, I think I've been convinced to go for two by this (admittedly 14th century) picture of a two-masted lateener sailing goose-winged. Really the only way I can see a dromon could sail without heeling over too much (10 degrees) for stability is to sail directly before the wind - and goose-winged not only equalises the forces from port and starboard, but it looks so cool! Steven

Thanks, Pat. Yes, they now look a lot more like the ones in the 11th century Byzantine representation at the top of this page. Steven

Sounds as cunning as a very cunning thing. Thought you might like this one, also from the Cantigas, which shows arrows sticking out of the mystery structure. Does this mean it was particularly solid, or would arrows stick like this into an awning anyway? This is believed to date from the 1270s to 1280s. Steven

I've added the beam shelf for the primne or poop deck. And I've made 8 of the 50 oars I need for the lower bank - note, the inboard end will be hidden, and supported by a bracket of my own cunning design. On the left is the first oar I made, then a blank for the new improved version, and finally a completed oar. Only 42 to go! On re-visiting the original mediaeval illustrations I came to the conclusion that the upper bank's blades were the wrong shape and after a lot of soul-searching I decided that I couldn't live with that, and I had to change them. Rather than make a whole new set of oars I built them up with home-made filler (using sawdust from the same wood the oars were made of) and then carved and sanded to the correct shape. Steven

Has anybody else seen this? https://www.livescience.com/53744-photos-medieval-dutch-shipwreck.html It was discovered in 2012 and (I think) raised in 2016, but I never saw it. How did I manage to miss it? So, we have another cog to study and learn from. Very exciting. Steven

This picture (also from the Cantigas) has more detail and may help decide what they are and how they're made. The masts are interesting, too. And this ship has a hatch in the side. My feeling is that these structures originated as protection for the steering oars (in case of collisions etc) - note that the "wings" still seem to be there - but may have evolved into something quite different. Steven

Very impressed with the way you made the gunport frames so they're all exactly the same, and avoiding the method of building with "sticks". And the way you installed them is brilliant, as well. So simple and obvious once you've seen it done, but first someone has to think of it . . . Steven

No, sorry - this has derailed the thread somewhat. I'll get back into my box now. Steven

I believe the last picture shows the planked timber housings for steering oars - at least that's how I interpret them. I'm going to base the steering housings for my own build on this picture. The Cantigas ships aren't the only ones with weird structures at the stern. There are a plethora of weird and wonderful stern constructions on Mediterranean ships in and about the 13th century. Heaven only knows what they were, how they were built, or what they did . . . By the way, I have serious doubts about the "hulc" theory - the original proposition is based on a single representation on the seal of the town of Hulkesmouthe which describes as a "hulc" a ship with these funny curved planks, plus a couple of rather small vessels in the archaeological record which appear to be built of planks curved like a basket or a barrel, and could be interpreted as being the physical manifestation of the ship on the seal. (see http://www.machuproject.eu/machu_cms/VoC/VoC_Wreck_View.php?wreck_id=454&lang=EN for an example) But the hulk/hulc was an ocean-going vessel by all accounts (it apparently replaced the cog) and I seriously doubt if the ships discovered would have survived well at sea. It seems to me that the Cantigas ships, those on the seal, and several others I'm aware of (e.g. the ship carrying St Louis to his crusade) may simply be an attempt to represent planking such as is found on the Viking longships - which also curves up at bow and stern, but misinterpreting the structure itself (the artists wouldn't be nautical types and simply drew what they thought was there from a brief look at a bunch of ships in harbour). Not enough, in my view, to base a whole academic theory on. I just think the proponent of the "hulc" theory has leapt to a conclusion on far too little information - that the word hulc is used to describe the ship on the seal because of the planking shown - rather than (as I believe more likely) that it's simply being used as a generic word for "ship". Not that I know what a hulc/hulk actually was - perhaps it was the ship which appears in the early 15th century with the same hull shape as the carrack, but with only a single mast - a sort of proto-carrack? Perhaps a hulc wasn't a particular type of ship at all, just a word that came into use to describe ships in general.There's just far too little information out there. Steven

A very good project, Dick. A very interesting time for nautical design - I wish I could work out how the sterns of some of these ships worked, particularly the ones of the Cantigas of Santa Maria. I should perhaps clarify that I meant ships of the crusading period (generally 1096 to 1291, between the crusaders gaining and losing the Holy Land). I'd actually be surprised if there were such things as crusader ships - it's far more likely that the ships the crusaders travelled in were provided (at a good profit) by the Italian republics, particularly Genoa and Venice. Certainly this was the case with the Fourth Crusade, and I expect with many, if not all, of the others. Steven

I've really enjoyed following this build. It's been a real educational experience, and the quality of both your research and your modelling is of the highest. I hope a book eventuates - it's a worthy topic.

Yes - for a relatively short period (a few decades) before they thought of piercing the sides for artillery. Though "railing pieces" (or swivel guns) stayed in use a lot longer (several were found on the Mary Rose and they were still in use as late as the Endeavour, which had a dozen of them), as far as I know they usually weren't mounted on the gunwales, as they'd get in the way of the bigger calibre guns. Steven

After a few months in the water it would probably be supporting a fine growth of underwater weed - particularly if (as I suppose) it's the Golden Hind sailing into tropical waters. But I don't think that would be very pleasant to look at - I agree with Druxey - do what you want to do. Steven

Perhaps to make them easier to find in dark/overcast/mist? Steven

I agree with Druxey and Carl. There's a doctoral thesis in the TAMU records online which consists of a speculative computer reconstruction of a dromon which is certainly no better nor better researched than your own model. I think if you showed this to a knowledgeable nautical academic, he/she could not fail to be impressed with the breadth and depth of research you've undertaken in constructing this model - as I am. Of course, there's a good chance that the Black Sea discoveries will prove some of your conclusions incorrect. This is always the case in research, and doesn't invalidate your work in any way. I'm in the same boat (sorry!). One part of me is dreading the discovery of a complete dromon, with my own model only half completed. The other part of me is looking forward to it with great excitement. Steven PS: I think this era is exactly the time to be calling them gunwales - this is when they first attached guns to the upper wale, so what could be more appropriate?

We'd probably say "freehand". It's looking very good, Patrick.

Yes, and he's about a head taller than everyone else - the Arab chronicler Ibn Fadlan described them as "tall as date palms". Steven

* Fixed now. All photos the right way up. Sorry for any neck injuries as people craned to see them. Steven

I haven't updated the log for a while - camera problems meant I couldn't post photos - but I haven't been totally idle. I've cut out all the oarports - the photo was taken yesterday and shows it with a few still to go. Very fiddly trying to get them all the same with the tools I have. And I've made a start on the lower deck oars - here are the first set of blanks I've cut out. The "business" end is as usual, but the handle end won't be visible and I'm experimenting with a shape that can be pinned to the "oarframe" (see photo from two posts ago) and will swivel easily when attached, so I can get the angle of the oars right before I glue it in its final configuration. I don't know why the photos are in the wrong orientation - they were ok when I was working on them. * I've added a beam shelf each side to support the deck beams when the time comes, and I've also added a couple of crossbeams to support the oarframe. And I've completed Emperor Alexios, two of his courtiers and one of his Varangian Guardsmen (I may or may not make a second one - depends on the space available on the poop deck). Next on the list will be making and fitting the mast step(s) and re-fitting the "wings" for the rudders.

I thought that was Treebeard . . . Steven PS: Looks like a very nice project to undertake. Good looking boat.

Beautiful work, Patrick, Steven

Another thought - perhaps the line they followed is a "Great Circle" - a curve joining the ends of a diameter of the Earth - that is the shortest route over the surface f a sphere. I don't have the math to work this out, but it may be a possibility.

Two thoughts occur - Both ships may have been staying well clear the coast until they reached the right latitude and then sailed east along the parallel until they reached the coast. Unless I was totally certain of the accuracy of my chronometer I'd be treating the longitudinal calculations not as totally reliable but "more of a set of goideloines". I wouldn't risk the safety of the ship on them unless I had to. The other thing is the prevailing winds. If they are westerly, the coast becomes a lee shore - much to be avoided. Even if they only got occasional westerlies, I'd be staying well away from the coast if possible until it was time to go into port. Steven

The cross of St George relates specifically to England - a red cross on a white background. The "Union Jack" - the flag of Great Britain - is a combination of the Cross of St George (England), with Scotland's cross of St Andrew - white saltire (diagonal cross) on a dark blue background and Ireland's Cross of St Patrick (red saltire on a white background) Steven

Thanks, Dick. I was originally thinking of getting an old cotton sheet from an op shop, sufficiently worn to be thin enough to make a sail at 1:50. But silkspan might be a better option. Fortunately I have plenty of time to think about it. There's plenty to do to the ship before it becomes an issue. And yes, I think I get what you mean about the bulging. I wish you every success with your cunning plan for the half deck. Looking forward to seeing it when it's done. Steven