Louie da fly
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Everything posted by Louie da fly
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Me too! There are still quite a few around on the Murray - in Mildura, Albury and Echuca that I know of, and perhaps more. Steven- 599 replies
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- sidewheeler
- arabia
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That's even better. It looked to me like they were to one side, but on closer inspection I can see they are indeed on top. That's pretty much what I'd decided to do for my own model, so it fits very well with what I had planned. The knees would probably be needed to overcome any sideways "rolling" torque on the step, which would otherwise have been perched rather precariously on top of the keelson. By the way, I've now been informed that the last photo I put up is not from a galley, but from a 6th century merchantman (YK35) - not really appropriate to my time and ship type. What I'd thought was a mast step is indeed just that, but surprisingly it wasn't fixed to the hull in any way - it was just kept in place by the weight of the mast. Seems rather bizarre to me . . . Steven
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That's fantastic, Dick! Just what I needed. (And about the same length as the mast steps I'd already made, though a little different in form). I note that the steps are actually next to the keel, just to one side. That makes a lot of sense structurally - no compromising the strength of the keel caused by cutting into it. Plus knees either side of the step to make everything firmer. I know this isn't from exactly the right time and place, but I should think the technique would have been very similar, though the details may have varied. Thanks very much for this. It's a great help. Steven
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Mark, Another way to lift the mast clear of the deck would be with sheers, as on a sheer hulk. This technology was definitely available at the time, as well as blocks, so should be relatively easy, even at sea - so long as there wasn't too much of a swell. (But they would only have lowered the mast on going into battle, which they wouldn't have done in rough weather - the ships were far too unstable for that). As the ship had a crew of over a hundred, no shortage of labour! The masts were lowered onto a "stand", presumably above head height, running fore and aft. As lateeners don't have stays, perhaps a shroud could be led forward to enable the mast to be lowered aftward under control. I should explain an earlier comment about the ships found with mast steps not having keelsons. The thing is that all the galleys I've come across seem to have had keelsons, but no evidence of a mast step. So how does one attach a mast step to a ship that has a keelson? The last photo above suggests either a rather thick keel that doubles as a step, or perhaps a sort of "box" built around the keel to take the step. Druxey, I certainly live in hope that the Black Sea wrecks will provide some information - but at the stage I'm at it will probably be too late for me to incorporate it into my build. Woodrat, sorry for not acknowledging your contribution about the Contarina wreck. I must have scrolled past it without noticing it - today's the first time I've seen it. Thanks for the information. Are there any detailed pictures of the steps? (probably not, or you'd have sent them, I expect). At a bit of a stall at the moment - been very busy with work and family and haven't been able to do anything on the ship for at least a week. Hoping things will change and I'll be able to get back to it. Steven
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Good points, Mark. I don't think these masts were all that huge, in fact. When I was first researching this model I worked out how much a mast would weigh and decided it could probably be handled by a relatively small number of people. I'll have to chase up and find my calculations again. As the dromon was fully decked, the mast step would only have to support the mast and keep the base from moving too much - wedges at deck level would hold it firmly and at the correct angle. Then the mast could be lifted a little to get it out of the slot then rotated around the hole in the deck to lower it. Should cover several of the problems you mention above. All sounding pretty good, in fact. I should have given credit for the photos in the above post; - those of YK12 were from the paper The Latest Link in the Long Tradition of Maritime Archaeology in Turkey: The Yenikapı Shipwrecks by UFUK KOCABAŞ of Istanbul University, Turkey, which appeared in the European Journal of Archaeology 15 (1) 2012. -the photos of YK24 are from Eight Byzantine Shipwrecks from the Theodosian Harbour Excavations at Yenikapı in Istanbul, Turkey: an introduction, by Cemal Pulak, Rebecca Ingram and Michael Jones of the Institute of Nautical Archaeology at Texas A&M University, which appeared in the International Journal of Nautical Archaeology (2015) 44.1: 39–73 By the way, I have a contact who may be able to tell me which ship is depicted in that final photo and whether or not it's a galley and has a mast step. If so, it would be a great help. Steven
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Thanks everyone for the 'likes'. Mark, I really hadn't given it much thought until your question. As it was all going to be below decks, it wouldn't be visible anyway, and I thought I'd just do something that would support the masts and be satisfied with that. But once you brought it up I started looking at the archaeological reports of the Yenikapi dig and found photos of at least two, possibly three mast steps. The first is from the wreck designated YK12, a small (9 metres long) merchant ship. Here is a photo of the ship as found plus a reconstruction, in both of which the mast step is clearly visible. YK24 had a mast step which had been nailed to two of the frames but had come adrift. Another was found with a mast step (designated YK6), but no pictures were available. And yet another ship had mortises cut in two of the frames, thought to have been to fasten a mast step in place. As you can see, both of the structures acknowledged to be mast steps have a simple rectangular slot to take the mast, and there seems to be no evidence of it being angled. This does help explain a contemporary Byzantine treatise on dromons describing masts becoming unstepped in strong wind, which I'd regarded as a somewhat unlikely if they were properly fitted. If it was no more than a simple slot, it would be rather vulnerable to losing its mast in adverse conditions. However, neither of these ships has a keelson - the mast step is just fastened to the transverse frames. None of the known galleys (all of which have keelsons) have any evidence of mast steps, though they are almost certain to have each had at least one mast. But there is another photo of a ship with a feature which might be a mast step (at the left of the photo) - I don't know the ship's designation, but it is from the Yenikapi excavations, and judging from the number of longitudinal stringers (used to prevent hogging in such a long narrow vessel) it may be a galley. If this photo does depict a galley and if the slotted structure is a mast step, then perhaps I have a model to work from. But that's a fair bit of speculation, and I don't have as much confidence in it as I'd like if I'm to use it as the sole basis for my own reconstruction. However, the rectangular slot is a pretty definite, and I will be using that. Steven
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Hmm, interesting. I'll have a look at the guide blocks as a possibility; it sounds like a better method than my own. Thanks for the suggestion. No mill available, so I'll have to give that one the go-by. Steven
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John, it's been a while since I checked out your log and I've obviously missed a lot of the progress you've made. I'm very impressed by the amount of painstaking research you've done and the care and attention to detail in your work. A very unusual and worthwhile model, and I look forward to further developments. Steven
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Thanks everybody for all the likes. Banyan, I haven't worked that out yet. What I had in mind was to mark the rake on the side of the mast step, and using that as a guide, mark the entry and exit points of the holes and then drill a very small diameter hole trying to join them as closely as possible, then carefully enlarge the hole to correct any misalignment. Hope it works! Steven
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Those waves are looking very good, Tecko. I think I'll steal your idea when I come to make a diorama (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ) Steven
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The blades for all 50 upper bank oars have been re-shaped , and 35 of the 50 oars for the lower bank are made. Only 15 to go. Upper bank at the top of the photo, lower bank below. Photo quality's not fantastic, I'm afraid. I've also started work on the mast steps for the two masts. Each is made using three strips of wood glued together to create a readymade slot for them to fit over the keelson. I've used clingwrap to keep them from sticking to the keelson. Once the glue is dry, I'll shape each mast step properly and then put a hole through each at the appropriate angle for the mast rake. Still have to make the masts - I should probably do that before I make the holes to take them . . . Steven
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SUCH a beautiful ship. I particularly like the final photo in the series, juxtaposed with the original drawing which you used as your main model in building her. And the quality (and quantity) of research has, in my opinion, resulted in a model as close as humanly possible to what actually sailed the seas. Not to mention the brilliant workmanship. You have good reason to be proud of this model, Dick. I look forward to the next build. Steven
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Lovely work on the balcony, Patrick. And a door with pintles and gudgeons, forsooth! Steven
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That's brilliant, Charlie. I hadn't realised she was so tiny - only big enough to carry a single carronade; But as a revenue cutter, I suppose that's all she needed. Beautiful work and a pleasure to follow the build. Steven
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That planking is exquisite. When I grow up I hope to be able to do as well . . . Steven
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Nice work, Tecko. It's all coming together nicely. I haven't tried the tea-light and tin can method for bending planks, but you make it look so easy it looks like I'll have to give it a go. Steven
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All that electrical stuff (even though my Dad was an electrical engineer, and even though I realise the circuits are actually relatively simple in the grand scheme of things) makes my brain hurt. I have great respect for people who can make all this stuff work. I like your figures. Looking good. By the way, if you want to add shadows to faces etc there are some good tutorials on youtube. Makes them look even more real. I've tried in my own small way with my own figures, but I doubt I'll ever reach the quality of the examples in the tutorials. Steven
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Nice. Steven
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Nice work on the arrows. Very precise. You might like to do a picture of "a pelican in her piety" (do a google image search). It was believed in the middle ages that pelicans stabbed themselves in the breast and fed their chicks on their own life's blood - this being a reference to the sacrifice of Christ. See http://www.sacred-texts.com/lcr/fsca/fsca41.htm And a lot of pelicans shown "in their piety" don't look much like pelicans at all . . . Whether people in England (particularly mariners) in Queen Elizabeth I's time knew what a pelican looked like is another question. Steven
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HMCSS Victoria 1855 by BANYAN - 1:72
Louie da fly replied to BANYAN's topic in - Build logs for subjects built 1851 - 1900
The Great Britain display is very good - they have very good explanatory stuff, and they have allocated various parts of the ship to different periods in her history - for example, below decks has been reconstructed as (very cramped and basic) berthing for her time transporting low-income emigrants to Australia (after she'd been converted to pure sail - she couldn't carry enough coal economically enough for trips longer than the Atlantic passage). The engines and the screw propeller are very worth a look, as well. You'll probably get to see the reconstruction of Cabot's Matthew of 1407, as well. I think she does day trips up and down the river. And while you're in Bristol, make sure you don't miss Brunel's amazing Clifton Suspension Bridge (high enough for a sailing warship to pass under). I'd forgotten it was there, and only caught a brief glimpse of it as we left in the bus. I hadn't realised how far inland Bristol is, for a major port. It's on the Avon river, not on the coast, and the river vanishes at low tide, leaving mudbanks and stranding vessels. Steven- 973 replies
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HMCSS Victoria 1855 by BANYAN - 1:72
Louie da fly replied to BANYAN's topic in - Build logs for subjects built 1851 - 1900
That's a beautiful rendition of a beautiful ship, Pat. What she reminds me of is Brunel's magnificent Great Britain, which it was my privilege to visit when I was in the UK. Looking forward to further progress. Steven- 973 replies
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Very interesting. As Young Frankenstein said "IT - COULD - WORK!!! Steven
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If the decision was to proceed under sail alone (which would give the oarsmen a rest), I expect the oars would be brought inboard. That's a whole subject in itself, which I worked out a solution to (it's in an earlier page of this thread), but I have no idea whether it's what was done at the time. Certainly there are pictures of Renaissance galleys with all the oars at rest, locked at a low angle above the horizontal. There are references to ships rowing and sailing at the same time, both in ancient and Renaissance sources (though unfortunately not in Byzantine sources, as far as I'm aware). Above a certain strength of wind, the tendency would be to make for port - in a hurry. There are any number of references to Byzantine (and Arab) fleets being completely wiped out by storms. I've just been re-reading The Jason Voyage by Tim Severin, the record of building a twenty-oared reconstruction (a penteconter was too expensive) of the Argo and rowing/sailing her from the Greek mainland to southern Russia. Fascinating stuff, and the oarsmen certainly welcomed a break from the eternal rowing. Both of the steering oars broke twice on the voyage, and the trip through the Bosphorus against the south-flowing current from the Black Sea was a real test. And they had blisters on their hands all the time. They'd burst, form scabs, and then new blisters would form. Not for me, I'm afraid. Steven
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Dick, you probably have the pictures already, but I just came across this site, which has very good quality photos of the San Marco mosaics. One from San Marco that doesn't appear on that site is below - a similar stern structure to those of the Cantigas, but not exactly the same - perhaps understandable, as it is Venetian, not Spanish. I know there's at least one other in San Marco, but I haven't yet been able to locate it on the net. However, my lovely wife visited Venice the year before last and brought back a wonderful book of the glories of San Marco. If I can just work out where I put it . . . Steven
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Oh, and regarding my quandary over whether to make the dromon single or two-masted, I think I've been convinced to go for two by this (admittedly 14th century) picture of a two-masted lateener sailing goose-winged. Really the only way I can see a dromon could sail without heeling over too much (10 degrees) for stability is to sail directly before the wind - and goose-winged not only equalises the forces from port and starboard, but it looks so cool! Steven
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