Louie da fly
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask - maybe it should be in "rigging". However, wherever it belongs, does anyone know the size of mesh (and rope thickness) used in boarding nettings? This is intended for a 16th century ship, but data from any period would be helpful - I think the mesh size wouldn't be likely to change much over the centuries, as the problem to be solved didn't change much. Any information or advice gratefully received. Thanks, Steven -
Not to worry, Alberto. There are very few things that can't be mended with a bit of work, and even the best of us have sometimes forged ahead where angels fear to tread and had to go back and start again. Stick with it; you'll get there. Regarding the bent keel, there are various posts on the forum on how to fix such things (though of course unfortunately I can't remember where I saw them). If worst comes to worst, it might be necessary to make a new one. Is the keel made of ply? If so, it's not an inherent twisted grain problem as I faced when I started my dromon. If you used PVA (white) glue on the frames you can dissolve it by soaking in isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol). Both that and methylated spirits (ethanol with 5% methanol otherwise known as wood alcohol) are commonly called rubbing alcohol, but isopropanol is the only one that works on PVA, as I discovered to my cost. One thing is that you've learned an important modeller's lesson. Don't glue unless you know you've got it right. You'll find a lot of modellers "dry fit" things together before they add glue. It can prevent a lot of heartache. And don't give up because something occasionally goes wrong. With patience and perseverance you'll get there, even if you have to retrace your steps once in awhile. Speaking for myself, and I'm sure for everybody else on the forum, there's no build that ever goes perfectly. And as your level of skill improves and your own standards for your work raise, you'll find ever new and more interesting mistakes to make! Having said all that, I'd like to add that you've chosen a beautiful ship to build. I'm sure it'll turn out to be something you'll be very happy to have done. Steven
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Thanks for this Alberto. This is very valuable info for anyone interested in mediaeval Mediterranean vessels. Steven
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Thanks, Dick, Mark and Mark. I suppose I'll just have to do what seems right. But I think something will need to be done at deck level, because these masts and sails would have imposed pretty strong forces on the vessel. Carl, I remember removing the wedges being mentioned in Hornblower in the West Indies when Hornblower is an Admiral and his flag captain decides to remove the wedges to speed the ship up in chase of a faster vessel.Hornblower thinks it's unwise, but convention forbids him as Admiral to give a captain advice in the handling of his own ship. Jack Aubrey might have done it, but I think he relied more on cross catharpins. I have no knowledge of it being done in the real world. Steven
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Ah well, that's ok. I have a solidus from the reign of Michael VII. I'll just have to copy that, won't I? Steven
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Hi Mark, I thought of the heat gun method (I do have one), but wood tends to return to its natural shape after a while - at least it has with me . . . Steven
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Pat, that's a good idea. I'll have to try it (on another model - unless I can retrieve the situation - I might just put pins in the forward two columns and let the rest just sit on the deck.) Thing is, I'm not all that confident of my accuracy with a drill. Always seems to wander, even though I put in a "dimple" to start the hole off. Dick, I'm afraid you're right. Curses! Looks like I'll have to make another mast (sigh). OTOH I've recently come across a calcet in an archaeological find (the only one I know of) and it has two sheaves, rather than the one I've put in each of my own calcets. As that's from a carrack the dating's well different, but the yards and sails of a dromon would have been pretty hefty, so maybe I need to replace the calcets anyway. So making a new mast isn't all that much extra work . . .😐 Here is the calcet - it's from a Genoese nave built in 1503, and must relate only to the lateen mizzen. The two illustrations seem to be of different calcets. The first is from the wreck; the second I believe to come from a contemporary manuscript - the text doesn't make it very clear. Glad you like the poop superstructure. Rather fiddly, but I seem to be taking more care with this kind of thing as my experience grows. Slows me down, but worth it in the long run, I think. Still learning lessons, though. Using butt joints to put together the two halves of the arches that go over the top meant that when you pick the structure up to work on it the arches squeeze inward and you have to pull them out again. PVA glue is fairly flexible, so it's somewhat forgiving in this regard, but perhaps if I'd used a more "rigid" glue the problem wouldn't have arisen anyway. I'd pretty much decided to use wedges. The earliest ships I know that show the fixing of the masts are in the 12th century Spanish Cantigas de Santa Maria and have what I thought were huge wedges, but I now believe to be posts coming up from below decks, to which the mast is lashed. Some seem to be merely fore and aft of the mast, others are all around it as in the picture below. As I've seen a reconstruction of one of the Yenikapi ships with a vertical post below decks with the mast lashed to it and to the (horizontal) mast partner, perhaps that's the way to go, especially as mediaeval galleys customarily fought with their masts lowered so they must have had a means to do it fairly quickly and easily - though I suppose wedges are probably just as good for that. Or perhaps just wedged in place at the mast step and lashed to the mast partner? The mast step is of the form found in the Yenikapi wrecks, so perhaps this is the way to go. (The wedge and fixing block are my own idea of how it may have worked). Oh and I suppose I'll have to mint a coin to scale to put at the base of the mast . . . Steven
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Hmm, it's a thought. I'll have to look how closely it approximates to the scale I need. Steven
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Beautiful work Alan. Very painstaking and precise. I'm in awe of people like you who can achieve this kind of precision. I'm a bit too "she'll be right" to achieve that - at least at my current stage of modelmaking. Steven
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Thanks for all the likes, everybody. They're much appreciated. Pat, you ain't seen nuthin' yet! Here it is almost complete and (dry fitted) in place on the poop. I had intended to have the tenons at the column bases go through the deck to hold the assembly in place, but then decided I just can't place holes in the deck accurately enough, so I cut them off. I hope that wasn't a mistake . . . (The masts seem out of line because they're currently only dry fitted. I have no idea how the Byzantines kept masts in place - did they use wedges as was done later, or were they lashed to through-beams or fixed posts, or a combination of those, or what? The earliest definite pictures I know of that show wedges date to the late 12th century - maybe 200 years too late. If anybody has any ideas or evidence, I'd appreciate your input.) Steven
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Thanks, Greg. It might be easier to just get tulle. There's a Spotlight and a Lincraft in Ballarat. Steven
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Planks trimmed: Adding the battens (if that's the right name for them): More to do . . . And the awning over the poop deck: Gluing the support arcades to the roof arches: Column capitals glued on the bottoms of the arcade arches and columns made (no lathe, so all carved by hand): Dry fitting the columns. Steven
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More work on the new forecastle. Parapet planking started: And continuing: And complete: Steven
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Thanks, Greg. Can you get the nets separately, or do you have to buy a whole lot of stuff that may never be needed (I don't expect I'll ever be making a Seydlitz)? Pat, if I can't get the netting by itself I'll probably follow your advice. Fortunately my wife knows everything about fabric! Steven.
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This is coming together well, Slowhand. I'm glad you didn't give up on it. Whatever historical accuracy issues there may be with the model as issued, you're putting together a very well worthwhile build. Steven
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What an interesting subject for a build. And you're doing an excellent job on it. 1:150 is not an easy scale for a ship of this size and type. I look forward to further progress. Steven
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Unbelievably brilliant, Greg. A magnificent build - the complexity and detail, and of course the weathering. What an amazing result. I have to ask, though. What did you use for the nets? I'm going to need something similarly fine if I want to put boarding nettings on my Great Harry. Steven
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Lovely crisp work, Patrick. I bet the piece of wood just died of fright when it saw that big spanner. If at first you don't succeed . . . use a bigger hammer. Steven
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Not as far as I know, Dick. Not all the results are out, but though one of the Yenikapi galleys had almost the whole of one side still in existence (including two or three oarports) nobody seems to have mentioned any rudders - or even oars, for that matter. But who knows what the Black Sea finds will turn up? Steven
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Beautiful work, Christos. A model to be proud of. Steven
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Looks really good, John. I can see the apparent crookedness of the transom was an optical delusion on my part because it's made of two beams angled to each other, not a single one at right angles. Steven
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Yes, the only thing I can think of (as it seems that having uphaul and downhaul it ought to swing) is perhaps the beam at the back could be removed? It doesn't affect the present model anyway as you're using a different method, but it would be interesting to come up with a solution as there seem to be far more representations of box-mounts than any other type. In the meantime I have to figure out what I'm going to do with my own rudders; back to Lawrence Mott, I think, and see if I can get any ideas there. [1/4 hour later] I've just been looking at Mott's paper and he was of the opinion that a swing mount was a variation of the aft-mounted rudder, but I can see that your braced rudder version would also work well. (Explanatory note for those not into side-rudders: aft mounted means two through-beams one above the other, with the lower one somewhat aft of the upper, and the rudder fixed to the after side of both beams. Braced is similar, but the rudder shaft passes between the two beams. Mott's paper discusses the relative advantages and disadvantages of the various systems.) Steven
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Siphon assembly in place. Adding "pipes" to convey the oil from the reservoir to the pump and thence under the decking (didn't take a photo of that, but it's the same as in the previous iteration of the forecastle) to the riser. The nozzle itself won't be added till I have the fore wall planked etc and the lion's head in place. Again, experience having taught me a better assembly sequence. Side walls in place. Making the arches for the awning over the poop deck. This time I used pear wood - easier than planetree wood to carve fine detail at this scale, and less prone to splitting. Roughly sawn to shape. Carving the concave parts of the arches. One arcade with the arches cut out. Paper removed and ready to carve the convex sides of the arches. One arcade cut to shape. And both arcades cut to shape and smoothed off. Steven
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New forecastle in progress, incorporating lessons I learnt when I did the first one. The main lesson was to get the sequence right. This time I put the siphon assembly in place before the side walls went on. Much easier to deal with. Adding the deck planking. Side walls - all the bits ready to put together. Side wall under construction. Decking and side walls complete, and siphon assembly (and lion's head) removed from old forecastle for recycling into the new one. Forward wall built and in position, with riser support in place. Pump lever, showing underside where the connecting rods for the cylinders will be fixed. Pump lever dry fitted. Pump cylinders dry fitted. Pump and oil reservoir glued in place. More to come. Steven
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